Kenosha shooting

[dcar00 14208]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

Two things:  One, you're teaching kids to be subservient to authority, and arguably, our society is where it's at and these cops do this stuff, because we have been subservient to authority, we put way too many cops on pedestals, and we have given them way too much slack and power over the decades.  Remember, we pay their fucking salaries, we pay their fucking pensions, we let them moonlight with their uniforms and even cars, etc.

And we've created a situation where, when cops fuck up, it's ultimately the taxpayers who are making the hefty payments to families, not the cops, not the cops' unions.  And speaking of unions, no matter how much a cop fucks up, the union goes balls-to-the-wall on defending them, because the union won't be punished for defending a scumbag, and the union gets to keep bringing in the union dues, because every cop, dirty or not, knows the union has their back.

Two:  Plenty of black families do teach their kids what to do when dealing with the police.  It's a very sad fact.  Hell, our neighbors have done it with their kids, and we live in a very nice neighborhood, and seeing a police car in the area is extremely rare.  But, as the wife said, there's a shitload of Karens in the neighborhood, and pre-covid, their kids were spending plenty of time at their friends' houses in the neighborhood.   I can't really wrap my head around having to have that conversation with a 6th-grader.

one, I am just talking about basic education about how to act at a traffic stop and other things

two, I'm not saying you should educate one particular race

I'm on board with zero moonlighting and using city vehicles unless working for the city.  

All public sector unions should be abolished.  I'm with you there as well.

[Continental Op 3934]

1 hour ago, Ignatius said:

Lol how was that a lesser crime? She fucking walked into someone else’s apartment and shot them to death while they were on their couch eating ice cream....

But who the fuck did that guy think he was just sitting there in his own home being black and eating ice cream?  Back the blue! 

[naija 2854]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As said originally, not attempting to justify it in any way.  And, as mentioned somewhere up there, influenced by a movie I just saw.

I'm just tryna keep people from getting shot and killed.

wonder how long you will keep going with this bit.

[TwiceHorn 31470]

17 minutes ago, naija said:

wonder how long you will keep going with this bit.

Fuck off.  My discontent with cops murdering people is extremely well documented here and at TOS.  It just so happened that I was in a frame of mind in which I'm watching and I'm like oh fuck, that is exactly the wrong thing to do to avoid getting killed.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[workswithseed 2106]

5 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

Collin & Denton counties: conservative yes, bumpkins no, overalls no.  You forgot sheeple.  Sheeple, yes, very high on the sheeple count.  Idiocrat % is very, very high as well.

I was very confused by bumpkins. Sheeple? Well I bet Dale has a word or 2 two to say about sheeple.

[TwiceHorn 31470]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Not what I said. I said it was a lesser CRIME.  Because it was. 

Well she was convicted of murder, not one of the lesser homicide offenses.  The only worse crime in Texas is capital murder.

But it was a bit less aggravated or more "excusable" than this one, or the Floyd case.

[TwiceHorn 31470]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Two things:  One, you're teaching kids to be subservient to authority, and arguably, our society is where it's at and these cops do this stuff, because we have been subservient to authority, we put way too many cops on pedestals, and we have given them way too much slack and power over the decades.  Remember, we pay their fucking salaries, we pay their fucking pensions, we let them moonlight with their uniforms and even cars, etc.

And we've created a situation where, when cops fuck up, it's ultimately the taxpayers who are making the hefty payments to families, not the cops, not the cops' unions.  And speaking of unions, no matter how much a cop fucks up, the union goes balls-to-the-wall on defending them, because the union won't be punished for defending a scumbag, and the union gets to keep bringing in the union dues, because every cop, dirty or not, knows the union has their back.

Two:  Plenty of black families do teach their kids what to do when dealing with the police.  It's a very sad fact.  Hell, our neighbors have done it with their kids, and we live in a very nice neighborhood, and seeing a police car in the area is extremely rare.  But, as the wife said, there's a shitload of Karens in the neighborhood, and pre-covid, their kids were spending plenty of time at their friends' houses in the neighborhood.   I can't really wrap my head around having to have that conversation with a 6th-grader.

Well, really for both of these points, very little is accomplished in terms of changing police behavior by "resisting arrest," even if it is more properly characterized as civil disobedience.  Unless you want to become a martyr, provoke protests and thereby maybe some actual reform, the better avenue for a wrongful arrest is to pursue legal remedies.  Possibly martyrdom will prove to be what moves the needle, but it's a terrible cost.

Also, as best I can determine, taxpayers generally do not pay civil judgments rendered against cops. If they do, it's voluntarily or through insurance premiums or contributions to a risk pool.  The law absolutely does not make the city or department liable for the actions of their officers except in unusual circumstances.  They do absorb the costs of litigation, which are not insubstantial.

Edited August 25, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

6 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

first time a perp ends up with a tranc in the eye and their police dept gets sued to bolivia will be the last time you hear about that idea....

Too bad that doesn't work with cops shooting people.    

[TwiceHorn 31470]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

She should’ve been and I said in that thread she deserved significant prison time. All three were murders. Hers truly seemed somewhat accidental. Others seemed more murdery and evil. 

Yeah I get what you're saying.  Although it was ultimately an intentional choice to shoot at him, which makes it murder, the bizarre circumstances make it a bit less culpable than some.

[TwiceHorn 31470]

29 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Fuck off.  My discontent with cops murdering people is extremely well documented here and at TOS.  It just so happened that I was in a frame of mind in which I'm watching and I'm like oh fuck, that is exactly the wrong thing to do to avoid getting killed.

 

The other thing is that, of late, that a cop is going to shoot or brutalize seems to be almost a foregone conclusion if a stop or arrest goes the slightest bit awry.  So you watch one of these god-awful things and you're just waiting for whatever it is that is going to provide that barest excuse.  Sometimes it's nothing at all, but in the drama of the thing, the story, one can't help but wonder, well, what is it going to be this time.

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

My guess is only the shooter gets nailed, and even then I’m not certain he doesn’t walk from this one. Poor form all around, for sure. Sick and tired of this shit. 

[achooloco 1072]

10 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

This will happen for the rest of our lives. That whole cycle. 

Catching up, So haven’t read thread but I hope not. A populace that trusts in its police force is a good thing. Right now we don’t bc they haven’t it. I hope they do and we get to a better place as a nation 

[washparkhorn 9939]

This is reportedly a Kenosha cop taking a lot of steps to subdue an attacking suspect. 
 

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

Curious whether this incident affected procedure and led to the Kenosha shooting. 
 

just a supposition in search of facts that might explain why the situation transpired as it did. 
 

The training was horrible in both incidents. Almost anyone with a gun might act as this LEO did. Military and police are trained to hesitate and protect when deciding whether to fire weapons. 
 

so many preventable errors. The human damage is immense. smh 

[washparkhorn 9939]

My dad investigated service member killings within the United States  In those assignments, he was tasks with a duty to determine the legitimacy of the service member killings (since those acts posed a potential national security threat if foreign actors were operating within the  United States. (darkest part of the Cold War). 
 

He never spoke if he discovered any (he took his oath of secrecy seriously). But he plead with me to be wary of local law enforcement. Too much power in hands that may be unqualified. And some are just not right in the head.

It’s not close to all of them who are incompatible with their duties. But it only take a few here and there to create horror in a community. Good LEO’s deserve repent. But they need to lead on ridding out the bad seeds in their midst. 
 

hook ‘em

[Bevo 13577]

28 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

He never spoke if he discovered any (he took his oath of secrecy seriously). But he plead with me to be wary of local law enforcement. Too much power in hands that may be unqualified. And some are just not right in the head.

It may be too much power in the hands of individuals, but I'm not sure police are any different than the general population. I think if you took a swath of mostly males between the ages of 20 and 40 and handed them guns and rule books, you would see almost identical behaviors. I meet probably 10 reservists each day and a pretty high percentage of them are policemen. The police don't stick out and without asking what they do for a living, I would have no clue as to their profession.

[Neonmoon 38129]

Why the seven shots? 

I think that will be a big swaying point as to negligence in the trial. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

20 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Why the seven shots? 

I think that will be a big swaying point as to negligence in the trial. 

7's a lucky number ?

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

4 hours ago, achooloco said:

Catching up, So haven’t read thread but I hope not. A populace that trusts in its police force is a good thing. Right now we don’t bc they haven’t it. I hope they do and we get to a better place as a nation 

There is zero chance black people will ever get to a point where they blindly “trust” police. Like, not a fucking chance. Not with how the system is set up. It’s working EXACTLY as it was designed to work. And the police know/think that most black people despise the police. They know that there have been generations of black people that have had this exact experience that you’re starting to see play out on camera (maybe not to them directly, but through stories they’ve heard from people they trust). So they then have a heightened sense of awareness, and they feel like they’re “in danger” when they are called to certain situations. They start to get more aggressive. 
 

And people can claim this “just a few bad apples” all they fucking want, but until some of these idiots start calling out their peers, it’s going to be hard to blindly trust them. And you should be able to blindly trust police officers. That should be a given. But the fact is, we know for a fucking fact that simply isn’t the case. 

 

I think it will take generations to actually see any significant change. I dont think any of us will be around to really see a real change. And i know I can be cynical, but I truly believe that. I think you will see these situations happen on a regular basis, and now that we have camera phones and it isn’t always just a he said she said with a “trusted police officer”, I think you’ll continue to see this happen. And it will lead to more cities burning to the ground. I don’t even see how any of this is debatable. I hope I’m wrong. 

[Guest Lobo]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

This is reportedly a Kenosha cop taking a lot of steps to subdue an attacking suspect. 
 

 

Say what you will...that white kid chased and attacked a cop, and this black man had to take 7-9 rounds in the back in front of his kids, potentially harming them physically. 

But you gotta give this white douchebag credit, after being tased...he pulled some pretty sweet "license to drive" Cory Haim moves with that driving at the end.  Props, son .

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13091]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Why the seven shots? 

He obviously wasn’t dead yet.

[Sgt Hulk 13716]

So have we come to the conclusion that this shooting was only based on skin color yet?  
 

Agreed in firebombing unions and allowing families to sue the pension holders woooo that would be epic as F 

 

[TwiceHorn 31470]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Why the seven shots? 

I think that will be a big swaying point as to negligence in the trial. 

Just so you know, cops aren't usually sued for negligence or even intentional torts such as assault or battery or "wrongful death."  Most states provide complete sovereign immunity for cops under their tort laws.

What you do see most often is the federal civil rights tort under 42 USC 1983, which is basically either a 4th amendment wrongful search/seizure/arrest, or a 5th/14th amendment deprivation of life/liberty by use of excessive force.  In those, officers don't have complete immunity, but only "qualified immunity."

As is frequently reported, qualified immunity has become nearly absolute immunity, which is why it needs to be abolished at the federal level, or at least modified.

If the case happens to get past qualified immunity to evaluation of the cop's liability, it does wind up looking a bit like negligence, that is, whether the cops' actions were reasonable or not under the circumstances.

It bears noting and repeating that, under this federal constitutional tort, employers are NOT liable for the acts of employees, as is often the case in conventional negligence cases.  Thus, departments and cities are NOT legally on the hook for damages, unless it is proven that their lack of training or some other policy led to the act, which is exceedingly hard to prove.

[Guest Lobo]

Instead of telling them you're filming and you have their badge number, tell them you're filming and you have their pension account number.  You might get dead, but I promise you they are sure as shit gonna stop murdering whoever they're murdering and come pay attention to what you have to say.  Guaranteed.  

[immortal13 4059]

6 hours ago, achooloco said:

Catching up, So haven’t read thread but I hope not. A populace that trusts in its police force is a good thing. Right now we don’t bc they haven’t it. I hope they do and we get to a better place as a nation 

That ship sailed a long time ago

[dcar00 14208]

10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The other thing is that, of late, that a cop is going to shoot or brutalize seems to be almost a foregone conclusion if a stop or arrest goes the slightest bit awry.  So you watch one of these god-awful things and you're just waiting for whatever it is that is going to provide that barest excuse.  Sometimes it's nothing at all, but in the drama of the thing, the story, one can't help but wonder, well, what is it going to be this time.

 

These situations suck for all involved.  I believe its something like 1000 people killed a year by cops.  so a killing is going to happen 2.5-3 times a day.   I'm sure there are plenty that go awry and no one is killed.

on ninja white boy and license to drive he got hit by a taser and it didn't even phase him.  what good are these tasers anymore?  they are a joke.  they don't stop anyone.  If the person fights or flees then the cop has to determine threat to his life or others lives if that person gets away.  If the rule is just let them go to avoid these types of situations then lets just make it the rule and live with the consequences.

my suggestion is we should just have cops be able to take the person's cell phone.  anyone under 40 won't leave their cell phone anyway. at least 75% of those will have a mental breakdwon first.

 

[Superhero 8830]

SIAP

But the guy is still alive and “just” paralyzed?

Hope he sues and wins the pension of all the those cops + a shit load of damages. 

[TornACL 7698]

50 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

 

my suggestion is we should just have cops be able to take the person's cell phone.  anyone under 40 won't leave their cell phone anyway. at least 75% of those will have a mental breakdwon first.

 

Yes, let's definitely offer solutions that give police new and exciting ways to violate a citizens rights!

 

[dcar00 14208]

7 minutes ago, TornACL said:

Yes, let's definitely offer solutions that give police new and exciting ways to violate a citizens rights!

 

sarcasm meter...

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

2 hours ago, Superhero said:

SIAP

But the guy is still alive and “just” paralyzed?

Hope he sues and wins the pension of all the those cops + a shit load of damages. 

Good sentiment but I would imagine their pensions are judgement proof, assuming they've fulfilled their vesting time. Police unions are good about ensuring that future income can't be taken away. That's more important than current salary levels.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

Not sure how accurate this account of what happened is seems to square up with what people are seeing on the 2 videos. 

 

 

 

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

4 hours ago, dcar00 said:

These situations suck for all involved.  I believe its something like 1000 people killed a year by cops.  so a killing is going to happen 2.5-3 times a day.   I'm sure there are plenty that go awry and no one is killed.

on ninja white boy and license to drive he got hit by a taser and it didn't even phase him.  what good are these tasers anymore?  they are a joke.  they don't stop anyone.  If the person fights or flees then the cop has to determine threat to his life or others lives if that person gets away.  If the rule is just let them go to avoid these types of situations then lets just make it the rule and live with the consequences.

my suggestion is we should just have cops be able to take the person's cell phone.  anyone under 40 won't leave their cell phone anyway. at least 75% of those will have a mental breakdwon first.

 

Speaking of which....

 

 

[Guest Lobo]

Is that good? 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

14 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Is that good? 

If you're an undertaker, yeah.

[workswithseed 2106]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

Is that good? 

Depends on the situation.

[atomheartbevo 89666]

5 hours ago, Superhero said:

SIAP

But the guy is still alive and “just” paralyzed?

Hope he sues and wins the pension of all the those cops + a shit load of damages. 

Taxpayers are going to cover the lawsuit.  And he will be provided expensive legal representation.

[TexanInIowa 25]

This is not going to be popular, but he was tased, he tore the leads off. The Police had him on the ground, and he fought his way back up. Reports are that he also had a knife. The Police can be heard yelling for him to put the knife down as he crosses the front of this car. This is why they didn't tackle him.

[Message Board User 12395]

2 minutes ago, TexanInIowa said:

This is not going to be popular, but he was tased, he tore the leads off. The Police had him on the ground, and he fought his way back up. Reports are that he also had a knife. The Police can be heard yelling for him to put the knife down as he crosses the front of this car. This is why they didn't tackle him.

Duck!

[TexanInIowa 25]

6 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Duck!

Plus, he had been arrested on 7/6 for pulling a gun on a guy in a bar altercation. The Clip fell out of the gun (you cannot make this shit up). He was told to leave. He left and pointed the gun again at someone in the bar through a window as he left. Probably figured that only the one bullet in the chamber would end up with him killed if he pulled the trigger. He got pulled over. The police at that time told him to stop, and he kept coming at them. He was arrested and the gun was found in the car. He was out on bail awaiting trial. Looking at 8 1/2 years.  He is no boy scout, and the police knew what was up because dispatch told them what was up on the way to the call. They knew he carried a gun in the recent past, and they knew he did not follow police directives and was violent. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by TexanInIowa

[TwiceHorn 31470]

7 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Good sentiment but I would imagine their pensions are judgement proof, assuming they've fulfilled their vesting time. Police unions are good about ensuring that future income can't be taken away. That's more important than current salary levels.

Yes, pensions are going to be hard to get at to collect a damage award. 

Getting to the pension fund directly is pretty much a non-starter. 

In some states, it may be possible to get to a portion of the payments made, once they start being made. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

17 minutes ago, TexanInIowa said:

Plus, he had been arrested on 7/6 for pulling a gun on a guy in a bar altercation. The Clip fell out of the gun (you cannot make this shit up). He was told to leave. He left and pointed the gun again at someone in the bar through a window as he left. Probably figured that only the one bullet in the chamber would end up with him killed if he pulled the trigger. He got pulled over. The police at that time told him to stop, and he kept coming at them. He was arrested and the gun was found in the car. He was out on bail awaiting trial. Looking at 8 1/2 years.  He is no boy scout, and the police knew what was up because dispatch told them what was up on the way to the call. They knew he carried a gun in the recent past, and they knew he did not follow police directives and was violent. 

So they fired a gun into a car full of kids?

I don't give a shit if he was a boy scout. That's not the standard for not being murdered by the police.

[TexanInIowa 25]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

So they fired a gun into a car full of kids?

I don't give a shit if he was a boy scout. That's not the standard for not being murdered by the police.

He was not murdered, he was a bad actor acting irrationally. Looked an awful lot like a suicide by cop attempt. to m

 

Not to mention, the guy is still alive.

Edited August 26, 2020 by TexanInIowa

[bad_teammate 13195]

And the punishment for being "a bad actor acting irrationally" is not public execution.

 

[TwiceHorn 31470]

20 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes, pensions are going to be hard to get at to collect a damage award. 

Getting to the pension fund directly is pretty much a non-starter. 

In some states, it may be possible to get to a portion of the payments made, once they start being made. 

May be worth noting that having pension funds immune from creditor claims is nothing new or special about police or other public or private employee pensions.

Your 401k is exempt from creditor claims under federal law.  Your IRA is exempt under state law.

And pensions have a hard enough time funding themselves without big off-schedule payouts for lawsuits that have nothing to do with the actions of the pension fund itself.

[atomheartbevo 89666]

44 minutes ago, TexanInIowa said:

Plus, he had been arrested on 7/6 for pulling a gun on a guy in a bar altercation. The Clip fell out of the gun (you cannot make this shit up). He was told to leave. He left and pointed the gun again at someone in the bar through a window as he left. Probably figured that only the one bullet in the chamber would end up with him killed if he pulled the trigger. He got pulled over. The police at that time told him to stop, and he kept coming at them. He was arrested and the gun was found in the car. He was out on bail awaiting trial. Looking at 8 1/2 years.  He is no boy scout, and the police knew what was up because dispatch told them what was up on the way to the call. They knew he carried a gun in the recent past, and they knew he did not follow police directives and was violent. 

Did the cop know that when he fired 7 shots into a minivan with kids in it?

[atomheartbevo 89666]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And pensions have a hard enough time funding themselves without big off-schedule payouts for lawsuits that have nothing to do with the actions of the pension fund itself.

So if one or two bad cops getting sued could sink a pension, would this make the police more likely to police themselves?

You said something about it several pages ago, but just to clarify - when these civil lawsuits happen, aren't the taxpayers usually the ones footing the bill?

[TexanInIowa 25]

8 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Did the cop know that when he fired 7 shots into a minivan with kids in it?

Yes, they knew that, they had been filled in on the way to the call. in addition to the gun issue, he had some domestic violence charges pending (from the same incident as the gun in the bar). 

[TexanInIowa 25]

26 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And the punishment for being "a bad actor acting irrationally" is not public execution.

 

But if he had killed the kids or run over an innocent bystander the police would have been criticized for allowing that to happen. The Rabble is so irrational right now it blows my mind.

[bad_teammate 13195]

9 minutes ago, TexanInIowa said:

But if he had killed the kids or run over an innocent bystander the police would have been criticized for allowing that to happen.

Someone somewhere will criticize literally anything... what's your point? What do the critics have to do with this?

[StruggleBus 3922]

Dude was a retard. 

Cops shouldn’t have shot him.

Now a bunch of poor and middle class people are going to have their shit destroyed.

I believe I’ll pour myself another scotch