Several shot during 3rd night of Kenosha riots

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is brutal to watch. 

Good cross-examination is magical. 

This is not good cross-examination.

Rittenhouse has tells the DA is not sensing. 

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

He's not even carrying a knife, club, or chain.

Would you kill him in a house? Would you kill him with a mouse?

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

3 minutes ago, Moby Ric said:

Pistols have that kind of range?  

Depends have hard you throw it.

[BabaYaga 15,301]

 "right, I defended myself to stop him from shooting me first"

[BabaYaga 15,301]

Someone has to shoot at you for you to protect yourself? That really is what this dude is arguing.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

The "the gun was actually too close for you to feel threatened" is an interesting route to take.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

The "the gun was actually too close for you to feel threatened" is an interesting route to take.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

I should render aid to a guy I just shot while an angry mob is after me is another great piece of logic.

[Nicole44 22,061]

This prosecutor must be “lawyer from neighborhood.” Not very good. 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

He has a terrible case.  There is video.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

LMAO.  No need for a redirect.

[JBJ 3,655]

That went way better for the defense than expected.  I still think it's a bad idea to put him up there.

Edited November 10, 2021 by JBJ

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He has a terrible case.  There is video.

Not really, but - you are correct. With this DA prosecuting, this DA has a horrible case. I am waiting for him to pull a rabbit out of his hat. The cross-exam needed to tell a story. It's didn't. It was a mess (for many reasons and factors in play in the courtroom).

Spoiler

The case is legit - no one wants antifa going to trump rallies pretending to be medics - while openly carrying long rifles with black metal cosmetic effects. Society has had enough of that garbage behavior.  As a firearms owner, we need to better police those who make a mockery of the Second Amendment's right to bear arms. Going to a riot to counter-protest the riot - with a AK Cosmetic Effects long rifle - should be discouraged for the sake of law abiding gun owners everywhere.

 

[immortal13 4,059]

17 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I should render aid to a guy I just shot while an angry mob is after me is another great piece of logic.

JimmyJames made this point earlier in this thread

[Moby Ric 2,058]

What I am learning is the DA is trying to say you can't defend yourself until after you get shot, beaten, etc

[immortal13 4,059]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Not really, but - you are correct. With this DA prosecuting, this DA has a horrible case. I am waiting for him to pull a rabbit out of his hat. The cross-exam needed to tell a story. It's didn't. It was a mess (for many reasons and factors in play in the courtroom).

  Hide contents

The case is legit - no one wants antifa going to trump rallies pretending to be medics - while openly carrying long rifles with black metal cosmetic effects. Society has had enough of that garbage behavior.  As a firearms owner, we need to better police those who make a mockery of the Second Amendment's right to bear arms. Going to a riot to counter-protest the riot - with a AK Cosmetic Effects long rifle - should be discouraged for the sake of law abiding gun owners everywhere.

 

Antifa is the other side, bro. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

9 minutes ago, Moby Ric said:

What I am learning is the DA is trying to say you can't defend yourself until after you get shot, beaten, etc

I think what he is trying to say is this guy and his buddy went hunting for humans. If that is his case, he is failing. 

[Moby Ric 2,058]

Just now, washparkhorn said:

I think what he is trying to say is this guy and his buddy went hunting for humans. If that is his case, he is failing. 

Like I said before, maybe the reason the prosecution is looking so bad is because there is no case against KR.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

11 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Antifa is the other side, bro. 

That's the point. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

3 minutes ago, Moby Ric said:

Like I said before, maybe the reason the prosecution is looking so bad is because there is no case against KR.

There is a case if went with the intention to use the firearm. 

This looks like a dumb kid in a bad environment - crappy mom and deviant friend.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

He somehow mind controlled three white guys to attack him because he is a racist and wanted to shoot them.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

There is a case if went with the intention to use the firearm. 

This looks like a dumb kid in a bad environment - crappy mom and deviant friend.

He could have wanted to use a firearm.  He still can shoot people who are attacking him.  It does not really make a difference.  I see nothing to suggest he wanted to shoot anyone.  He was putting out fires and offering medical care to injured people.  If he wanted to shoot looters or arsonists, he had plenty of targets.  Yet he only shot people who attacked him.

[immortal13 4,059]

I wonder which Surly Cloak Roomer Binger is?

[washparkhorn 9,939]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He somehow mind controlled three white guys to attack him because he is a racist and wanted to shoot them.

He was acting like a bait fish. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

3 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I wonder which Surly Cloak Roomer Binger is?

GR Horn.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He could have wanted to use a firearm.  He still can shoot people who are attacking him.  It does not really make a difference.  I see nothing to suggest he wanted to shoot anyone.  He was putting out fires and offering medical care to injured people.  If he wanted to shoot looters or arsonists, he had plenty of targets.  Yet he only shot people who attacked him.

Not if he was the initial aggressor. Self-defense would unavailable to him. That's the crux of the case.

Defense also will claim his actions were sanctioned by law enforcement, though perhaps not after today.

[DDD Dad 14,339]

7 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

GR Horn.

@Brisketexan

I kid, I kid.

[workswithseed 2,112]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

@Brisketexan

I kid, I kid.

Not enough cliff talk.

[Satoshi 129]

7 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Not enough cliff talk.

Or white supremacy talk. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

7 minutes ago, Bravo said:

Let's say that is true which isnt but let's do it. Doesn't matter.

If you are an MMA champ and taunt someone to come at you - you are the initial aggressor in that situation by taunting. 

As for the morons, vigilante law enforcement is not the answer to that problem. 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

Putting out a fire really provokes arsonists.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Putting out a fire really provokes arsonists.

You appear to be quite sheltered.

Let's say your buddy is dismembering a live dog and you try to stop him.  Is he happy with you?

[washparkhorn 9,939]

5 minutes ago, Bravo said:

horrible analogy. kyle didnt taunt anyone and no just being there is not taunting. his demeanor was calm on every video. in fact, he didnt even interact with any protestor.

You asked me to ponder a hypothetical created by you. Who are you arguing with?

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

[JBJ 3,655]

4 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

You appear to be quite sheltered.

Let's say your buddy is dismembering a live dog and you try to stop him.  Is he happy with you?

A reasonable person is not provoked by either.  The standard is always a reasonable person, an arsonist being mad that you put out his fire is not provocation in the legal sense.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

3 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A reasonable person is not provoked by either.  The standard is always a reasonable person, an arsonist being mad that you put out his fire is not provocation in the legal sense.

It's the reasonableness of the shooter's action - correct. 

[Brisketexan 105,154]

3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Not enough cliff talk.

Ledge.  It's ledge talk.

And there are actually a good number of folks on this thread who I think are in the neighborhood of the right take.  The conclusion of that is 1) Kyle ain't no hero, and shouldn't have been down there, and 2) once he was there, three dumbasses acted in utterly dumbtastic ways that gave him a solid defense of self-defense.

Kyle went down there because he had delusions of glory, being a warrior hero, etc.  He openly talked about wanting to shoot people.  He was a kid, and shouldn't have been there.  And the local cops shouldn't have encouraged him to put himself in that role.  That was not good.

The guys he shot were shitheels engaged in shitheelery.  And they attacked a guy carrying an AR (which is perhaps the dumbest part of their symphony of dumbassery)....who then shot his attackers, giving him a pretty damned good defense.

In another thread, I used the example of a gangbanger who had a rival come at him, and he shot him in self-defense.  Gangbanger may be an utter POS, or may have been HOPING for his rival to come at him so he'd get a chance to take him out, none of which is good.  But he still has a good defense of self-defense.

KR is not a hero.  He should not be turned into one.  We should not have people -- of ANY political lean or persuasion -- heading down to protests or riots (or protests, hoping that it turns into a riot so you get a chance to shoot some people you don't like) to act as vigilante/self-deputized cops.  I've said it before -- when you show up with a visible gun, then you just turned every possible confrontation into a gun fight.  That's usually a bad outcome.  We'd have all been better off if KR stayed home, the dumbasses did the same and/or if they were going to be out there, protest peacefully and non-violently, and if the cops did the job of dealing with dumbasses committing acts of arson and destruction of property.  That's the optimum path.  Things that go wildly outside that path shouldn't be lauded or held up as positive examples.

TLDR; I don't much like any of the characters involved in this shitty drama.  I have the most sympathy for KR because he is the youngest one, and allowed himself to be seduced into a course of action he thought was heroic.  But my sympathy doesn't go very far, even for him.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

So again, the crux of the case is whether loses his right to claim self-defense because he intended to provoke an attack against himself by unlawfully carrying the weapon with the intent of then using that attack as an excuse to use deadly force against his attackers.

Based on the facts I have seen, that's a stretch for any jury given the kid looks and acts like an incel, has a shitty parent/s, and has loser dead-end friends. He doesn't appear bright, he presents as lost, and his friends look like an anchor.

Frankly this looks like LARPing or Cosplay gone amuck. 

 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

[Brisketexan 105,154]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

So again, the crux of the case is whether loses his right to claim self-defense because he intended to provoke an attack against himself by unlawfully carrying the weapon with the intent of then using that attack as an excuse to use deadly force against his attackers.

Based on the facts I have seen, that's a stretch for any jury given the kid looks and acts like an incel, has a shitty parent/s, and has loser dead-end friends. He doesn't appear bright, he presents as lost, and his friends look like an anchor.

Frankly this looks like LARPing or Cosplay gone amuck. 

 

That's almost certainly exactly what it is.  I do believe that in his pre-game fantasies, he WANTED to go down there and shoot "bad guys."  And those fantasies took root in a LARPer brain of a kid who was susceptible to that.  And then, the fantasy became reality, and it wasn't nearly as awesome as it was when he played it out in his head beforehand.  And it sure wasn't awesome for the dumbasses who went after him and got shot.

[workswithseed 2,112]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Ledge.  It's ledge talk.

 

Cliff ledges have better views.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

it wasn't nearly as awesome as it was when he played it out in his head beforehand.

You could see that towards the (sudden) end of cross-examination. He had that look every kid gets when he realizes he should have just stayed home that night. 

[Brisketexan 105,154]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

I think that's true. Naively or stupidly he thought he'd go down there and play army medic and combat soldier prepared to kill and live out a dream that started when he was doing Jr Firefighter deal for 2 yrs.  Made him likely feel important and feel heroic. Turns out when you insert yourself into those situations surrounded by criminals who are fucking lunatics things arent going to turn out well. Go figure?

Well, you were almost complete with your answer.  The bolded part was part of his fantasy, too.  He literally said so before he ended up going down there.  But what y'all are talking about is dead-on.  It has reminded me of this fantastic scene from Unforgiven:

 

Killing is shitty business.  A smart person does everything in their power to AVOID engaging in said business.

[Brisketexan 105,154]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

I dont think he really wanted to shoot people but seem tough.

Don't ask me if he wanted to shoot people.  Ask Kyle:

Quote

A voice that sounds like Rittenhouse says one of the men coming out of the store appears to be armed, the Journal Sentinel reported. Then, he says, “Bro I wish I had my (expletive) AR. l’d start shooting rounds at them.”

Again, that doesn't change whether or not the actual shootings in the moment were acts of self-defense.  But it's pretty clear he didn't just want to engage in the "apply bandages and tourniquets" part of the medic fantasy....the "carry an AR and shoot people" was an openly stated part of that fantasy.  That's not good.

[Deej 76,830]

18 minutes ago, Bravo said:

Naively or stupidly he thought he'd go down there and play army medic and live out a dream that started when he was doing Jr Firefighter deal for 2 yrs.  Made him likely feel important and feel heroic.

If he had only realized that would have gotten him elected to the Austin city council Place 6. 

[Harrison Bergeron 1,798]

29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ledge.  It's ledge talk.

And there are actually a good number of folks on this thread who I think are in the neighborhood of the right take.  The conclusion of that is 1) Kyle ain't no hero, and shouldn't have been down there, and 2) once he was there, three dumbasses acted in utterly dumbtastic ways that gave him a solid defense of self-defense.

Kyle went down there because he had delusions of glory, being a warrior hero, etc.  He openly talked about wanting to shoot people.  He was a kid, and shouldn't have been there.  And the local cops shouldn't have encouraged him to put himself in that role.  That was not good.

The guys he shot were shitheels engaged in shitheelery.  And they attacked a guy carrying an AR (which is perhaps the dumbest part of their symphony of dumbassery)....who then shot his attackers, giving him a pretty damned good defense.

In another thread, I used the example of a gangbanger who had a rival come at him, and he shot him in self-defense.  Gangbanger may be an utter POS, or may have been HOPING for his rival to come at him so he'd get a chance to take him out, none of which is good.  But he still has a good defense of self-defense.

KR is not a hero.  He should not be turned into one.  We should not have people -- of ANY political lean or persuasion -- heading down to protests or riots (or protests, hoping that it turns into a riot so you get a chance to shoot some people you don't like) to act as vigilante/self-deputized cops.  I've said it before -- when you show up with a visible gun, then you just turned every possible confrontation into a gun fight.  That's usually a bad outcome.  We'd have all been better off if KR stayed home, the dumbasses did the same and/or if they were going to be out there, protest peacefully and non-violently, and if the cops did the job of dealing with dumbasses committing acts of arson and destruction of property.  That's the optimum path.  Things that go wildly outside that path shouldn't be lauded or held up as positive examples.

TLDR; I don't much like any of the characters involved in this shitty drama.  I have the most sympathy for KR because he is the youngest one, and allowed himself to be seduced into a course of action he thought was heroic.  But my sympathy doesn't go very far, even for him.

I agree with 90% of your post and appreciate the levity. It is rare these days, especially for high volume CRers.

I am not sure I agree with your assign motive. Admittedly, I am not a scholar of this situation, but I am not familiar with clear evidence that his motive was anything other than to help people and to protect businesses. If he stated otherwise, I'll gladly stand corrected.

I agree with you that he is not a hero, but I think it is a little Motte & Bailey to act like there is this great attempt to elevate him as such. If anything, this is an example of the frequently repeated (to cite another source) "Republicans Pounce" lines. What is meant by that is the Left will do something stupid, the Right reacts, and the story becomes "Republicans Pounce." In this affair, this case for no justifiable reason other than division was elevated to a national story, and the ideological media (once again) completely misconstrued a situation involving a minor to fan the flames of division and feed read meat to its ideologue audiences. So right are wrong, it is not unexpected that some would react to that slander and libel and exaggerate the "goodness" of his actions.

I have said previously that I generally oppose the nationalization of these local crime cases. Our ideological media spends too much time trying to fan outrage and division by nationalizing local stories at the expense of good and comprehensive national and international journalism.

[Brisketexan 105,154]

3 minutes ago, Bravo said:

I think a lot of people have said bad things they would do to looters. I really don't think that is very damning as when he was in the position to just shoot looters he didnt do it. 

Very very few of those people then purposefully traveled some distance, carrying the same AR they fantasized about in their musings, to put themselves in a place to do that.

It's okay admitting that he had a fantasy about shooting baddies, and his trip there was in part to indulge in that fantasy and to actually hope that he got the chance to do so.  It's the truth.  It doesn't destroy his self-defense argument.  But it does significant damage to the idea that KR was a hero who should be held up as a great example.

"Don't take your guns to town, son."

[Brisketexan 105,154]

3 minutes ago, Deej said:

If he had only realized that would have gotten him elected to the Austin city council Place 6. 

Wait....KR got a boob job?  New shit has come to light.

[jettrink 40]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, you were almost complete with your answer.  The bolded part was part of his fantasy, too.  He literally said so before he ended up going down there.  But what y'all are talking about is dead-on.  It has reminded me of this fantastic scene from Unforgiven:

 

Killing is shitty business.  A smart person does everything in their power to AVOID engaging in said business.

A fellow Texas lawyer named John Wesley Hardin would like a word with you in the afterlife.

[dcbc 14,487]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Don't take your guns to town, son."

My Old Man had that song on repeat in his car for years.  He loved it, and he loved Cash.  It's good advice.

Edited November 11, 2021 by dcbc