Several shot during 3rd night of Kenosha riots

[workswithseed 2037]

8 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Sounds like a great plan for anarchy he has laid out. Now if only there were a social movement that supported such an idea. 

For 3 months.

[dcar00 14036]

12 minutes ago, Foosters said:

17 year old Trayvon Martin. Unarmed and chased by Zimmerman. Deserved to die

17 year old Kyle Rittenhouse. Armed with an assault rifle travels to another city looking for a fight. Kills unarmed people. He was in the right.

The people making the latter argument are the same folks who several years ago spent weeks making the former.

Can't put my finger on the incongruity. I know it can't be racism because they tell me they have Black friends.

who is saying Rittenhouse was in the right on this thread?

[52-80 19098]

11 minutes ago, Foosters said:

17 year old Trayvon Martin. Unarmed and chased by Zimmerman. Deserved to die

17 year old Kyle Rittenhouse. Armed with an assault rifle travels to another city looking for a fight. Kills unarmed people. He was in the right.

The people making the latter argument are the same folks who several years ago spent weeks making the former.

Can't put my finger on the incongruity. I know it can't be racism because they tell me they have Black friends.

Wait, if you don't lionize the martyrdom of Joseph Rosenbaum, does that make you a racist against white people?

But Rosenbaum was also using racial slurs...fuck...that's pretty confusing

 

[52-80 19098]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

who is saying Rittenhouse was in the right on this thread?

The strawman did.  That asshole.

[Hate 20103]

If we're worried about domestic abusers participating in this we need to start looking at the heavily-armed cops. Cops, after all, beat their wives at an impressive clip.

Which means they all beat their wives, am I right??

[Foosters 17734]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

The strawman did.  That asshole.

Yeah, it was the strawman. Not the posters asserting that he was acting in self-defense from Molotov-weilding pedophiles.

[closetohumping 17406]

36 minutes ago, Js1 said:

We’re looking at a big loser right now spouting debunked right wing talking points. Hint: it’s you 

I'm not really right wing though.  It looks like the kid was being attacked, now whether he deserved it or not, I get it, but at some point, I think he was sacred shitless.  I think the name calling and general tone of interactions here are a microcosm of really what's wrong with this world.  We used to be able to discuss things w/o name calling.  

[wildcat09 29266]

3 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

I'm not really right wing though.  It looks like the kid was being attacked, now whether he deserved it or not, I get it, but at some point, I think he was sacred shitless.  I think the name calling and general tone of interactions here are a microcosm of really what's wrong with this world.  We used to be able to discuss things w/o name calling.  

Committing murder and then being scared shitless that people nearby are going to beat the shit out of you to prevent you from committing more murders is not a valid basis for self defense.

[shadow_operative 15932]

13 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

who is saying Rittenhouse was in the right on this thread?

i haven't read this entire thread, but the amount of people i've seen praising this kid has been insane. i don't have a facebook. my only social media is instagram, and i don't follow anyone who is defending this guy. i go to twitter like twice a week whenever i see a cool sports highlight on tv that i want to share on the mlb/nba thread. that's it. and even i haven't been able to avoid this apparently massive contingent of people who see this kid as a patriot, a hero, and "in the right". it's fucking disgusting. 

[El Tri 401]

51 minutes ago, slorch said:

I agree that the 17 year old should not have been there.  Period.  The whole scenario contains a multitude of actions/ decisions that leave me asking in the short term, "Where were the young man's parents, " and in the long term, "Where were the young man's parents?"

Nothing good was going to come out of that trip, and like so many have said in the thread, he went looking for trouble and found it.  In discussions over firearms, I have long supported strong legal action against those who commit crimes with guns.  If he's convicted, I hope he gets the max allowed under the law. If his parents were negligent with regard to the access to weapons, hammer them too.

 

As for the deceased, I don't care to disparage their character or criminal past.  However, one cannot dismiss those characteristics within the body of folks doing this destruction and criminal behavior under the deceptive precepts of being socially outraged.  Did they deserve to die?  I don't believe "deserve" has anything to do with it.   Similarly to the perp, they went looking for trouble and found it.  

Only put yourself in that position if it's worth it.  It's too late now to ask them what the looting and arson was worth, but we know the price they paid.

 

jesus fucking christ, i feel dirty for agreeing with slorch for once

[52-80 19098]

8 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Yeah, it was the strawman. Not the posters asserting that he was acting in self-defense from Molotov-weilding pedophiles.

So he wasn't defending himself when Rosenbaum chased him down? 

 

And his intention was to , what, disarm Ritter because he knew Ritter was 17 and had no rights to the firearms and it was his prerogative to adjudicate ? 

[Newdoc 3433]

3 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

It was a simple point - and not contentious.  

Agree but my point is that conflict, in a looser sense, can happen without a counter group physically present. Violence anyways.

[dcar00 14036]

10 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

i haven't read this entire thread, but the amount of people i've seen praising this kid has been insane. i don't have a facebook. my only social media is instagram, and i don't follow anyone who is defending this guy. i go to twitter like twice a week whenever i see a cool sports highlight on tv that i want to share on the mlb/nba thread. that's it. and even i haven't been able to avoid this apparently massive contingent of people who see this kid as a patriot, a hero, and "in the right". it's fucking disgusting. 

who is praising this kid or saying he is in the right on this thread? social media is dumb, the kid was dumb, the rioters are dumb, the stupidity is overwhelming to be honest.

[Brew 3049]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

who is praising this kid or saying he is in the right on this thread? social media is dumb, the kid was dumb, the rioters are dumb, the stupidity is overwhelming to be honest.

Read the thread. You only have to go back like 2 pages maybe. Johnny Sack would be one. There are others. Praising  may be a debate of semantics, but the “support” is there.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Brew

[Hate 20103]

3 hours ago, Enchubben said:

I’m not going to defend what Johnny said above, but let’s not act like half the people here chastising his view on the deaths of these two clowns, haven’t wished death upon our current POTUS. Fake outrage IMO because of the dislike of Johnny Sack.
“ I fucking hate that fucking fuck, and I hope he chokes on a goddamn Big Mac.” - BrisketTexan, August 14, 2020.

And then also look at the Rush Limbaugh thread. Rush is a POS, but the amount of posters that are disappointed that any update other than he is dead is ridiculous.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Hate

[Genco 3038]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

The jump to defend him and dig up the dead guys pasts to justify it is strange.

It's no different than the resident assholes on this site saying Black people cannot be outraged by murderous cops until they solve Black on Black violence, protect the civil rights of Hong Kong citizens, and submit to all unjustified Deputy Redneck commands because Blue Lives Matter first and foremost. And after they've solved all of the world's problems, we'll eventually get to the issue of police reform but only for martyrs that don't have a misdemeanor on their record. Because fuck them if they do. Oh and the burden of rebutting a fake pedo charge or a fake Molotov cocktail circulating on social media? That's the responsibility of the deceased. Not the jerkoff stupid enough to be circulating the bogus info that holds the grievances of Black and Brown people in contempt. 

All of this should have been in the SOP manual. PM me your email address and I'll make sure you get a copy of the memo.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Genco

[dcar00 14036]

Just now, Brew said:

Read the thread. You only have to go back like 2 pages maybe.

so no one?

[JBJ 3649]

1) The entire thing seems to hinge on whether the first shooting was lawful or not, which really isn't a certainty from the info we have.  We don't know what started the chase thru the gas station.  If the first shooting was bad, it's likely the next two are a continuation and self-defense won't be a valid justification.

2) It's legal for a minor to possess a long rifle in both states.  In IL he would need to be licensed.

 

[Brew 3049]

Just now, dcar00 said:

so no one?

Edited at the same time you posted apparently. Again, you should be able to follow the thread yourself without others having to summarize for you.

[Foosters 17734]

16 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

So he wasn't defending himself when Rosenbaum chased him down? 

 

And his intention was to , what, disarm Ritter because he knew Ritter was 17 and had no rights to the firearms and it was his prerogative to adjudicate ? 

So . . . He was in the right?

[Juicy 723]

10 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

When black people get shot and killed it doesn’t bother me one bit. 

Fixed for Racism.

[Brew 3049]

1 minute ago, JBJ said:

1) The entire thing seems to hinge on whether the first shooting was lawful or not, which really isn't a certainty from the info we have.  We don't know what started the chase thru the gas station.  If the first shooting was bad, it's likely the next two are a continuation and self-defense won't be a valid justification.

2) It's legal for a minor to possess a long rifle in both states.  In IL he would need to be licensed.

 

The NYT piece makes it sound like self defense as well as a shit ton of mob confusion just for the record. Someone fires a gun, the kid has a gun and people rush him, he shoots, others rush, he shoots, another gun comes out, he shoots some of which happens while trying to flee the situation. There are pieces of that story that make the whole thing difficult.

The other guys record has no bearing on any of that which is the problem with some of this discussion. The kid being there with a gun is a huge problem in this whole scenario as well. A lot of it comes down to stupid people looking for stupid situations as has been stated.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

5 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Fixed for Racism.

To be fair, I don’t think those people were black. But ultimately you probably aren’t wrong.

['stache 21777]

14 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

To be fair, I don’t think those people were black. But ultimately you probably aren’t wrong.

The "rioters" are stupid in their view for being outraged at a black guy getting shot in the back by a police officer. They view allies the same as those trouble making "blacks."

Edited August 28, 2020 by 'stache

[52-80 19098]

23 minutes ago, Foosters said:

So . . . He was in the right?

With a little more nuance this time:

To be there? Nope

To carry a gun? Nope

To defend himself in that circumstance? Sure.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

Just now, BurntEyes said:

So.. curb the suspense. What do I win?

Your sanity.

[Hate 20103]

The "rioters" are stupid in their view for being outraged at a black guy getting shot in the back by a police officer. They view allies the same as those trouble making "blacks."

Has anyone actually said this or are you just making stuff up?

[fattyflattie 4636]

34 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Fixed for Racism.

That’s bullshit. And a major contributor to the wonderful conversations of this thread. 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

With a little more nuance this time:

To be there? Nope

To carry a gun? Nope

To defend himself in that circumstance? Sure.

 

1234

His running away two separate times seems to point to his attempt at deescalation.  Seems hard to claim he didn't shoot in self defense.  He only has to go back a week to show what happened to the guy who surrendered to the mob only to be kicked in the head and nearly killed, and he wasn't part of any "opposition."  Seems reasonable he feared for his life.

Dumb ass kid shouldn't have been their, and a parent drove him?? the fuck??

[Juicy 723]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

That’s bullshit. And a major contributor to the wonderful conversations of this thread. 

Sack has spewed racist bullshit all thread and you get butthurt when he gets called for it. Give me a break. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Juicy said:

Sack has spewed racist bullshit all thread and you get butthurt when he gets called for it. Give me a break. 

Bullshit. He said he’s not losing sleep over some dead white guys.  He feels chasing the kid down and kicking him and hitting him with skateboard was likely enough to justify self defense. Others disagree.  Same thread as it always was. 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

4 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Sack has spewed racist bullshit all thread and you get butthurt when he gets called for it. Give me a break. 

not caring about 4 white idiots is racist?  Harsh, sure.  Racist, link?  Another example at how our current society has tried to manipulate dialog in order to create outrage for a different opinion

Edited August 28, 2020 by ChickenSandwich

[Captainant 27471]

10 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Its a productive thread though. Really great dialog going on. Would read again.

Well between @MillerEP posting misinformation which is latched onto to authoritarian racists like @Johnny Sack sack to wax poetic about "canoeing heads", there's just so much to enjoy. 

Are you sad you missed out on the opportunity to join them or something?

[TwiceHorn 31304]

You can find the Wisconsin self-defense statutes, here. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/III/48/1m

Their law actually contemplates losing your ability to claim self-defense when you provoke the action you defend against.

But it also contemplates regaining the ability to claim self-defense once you have retreated.  

Quote

(2) Provocation affects the privilege of self-defense as follows:

(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person's assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.

(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant.

(c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.

Interdasting.  Looks like jury questions.

[Juicy 723]

7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

not caring about 4 white idiots is racist?  Harsh, sure.  Racist, link?  Another example at how our current society has tried to manipulate dialog in order to create outrage for a different opinion

 

On 8/26/2020 at 1:39 PM, Johnny Sack said:

You think maybe police are more afraid of young black males for a reason that might be rational and based on interactions they have routinely?

 

On 8/26/2020 at 5:28 PM, Johnny Sack said:

Cops have a lot of bad experiences with young black males.  And it impacts them.  Police shootings — which have actually dropped significantly the last 6 years — correlate very closely with a demographic’s violent crime rate.    

 

On 8/26/2020 at 8:45 PM, Johnny Sack said:

We do need more Democrat cities where black people thrive.  

 

7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

not caring about 4 white idiots is racist?  Harsh, sure.  Racist, link?  Another example at how our current society has tried to manipulate dialog in order to create outrage for a different opinion

Here is just a small sampling of Sack's racism in the thread. Using broad generalities about race to try and prove a point is indeed racism.

 

Cops have a lot of bad interactions with young back males? You dont think they also have a lot of positive interactions with young black males? Or how about their interactions with Drunk white trash? How does that not impact the way that the police view whites? 

[fattyflattie 4636]

4 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Or how about their interactions with Drunk white trash? How does that not impact the way that the police view whites? 

Well, you see the thing about that, they shoot and tase and beat them too.  You might not notice because no one looted a Saks because of it. 

[dcar00 14036]

1 hour ago, Brew said:

Read the thread. You only have to go back like 2 pages maybe. Johnny Sack would be one. There are others. Praising  may be a debate of semantics, but the “support” is there.

i've seen people posit that there could be a self defense claim(because we don't know the facts and he was chased and attacked by the skateboarders in the video) but haven't seen anyone say he was absolutely in the right for shooting anyone. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

i wish i was astounded at the misinformation on this thread, but i think i'm becoming inured to it. the people most likely to spout off about fake news seem to be the ones most ready to embrace actual fake news. we have johnny sack celebrating the death of people without actually knowing if any of the information about that person is accurate. i have yet to see any credible information about the "pedophile" accusation. as if that matters in the moment. 

i'm not out here saying rosenbaum was a good actor in this drama. he did not look his most rational in the initial confrontation, yelling as a white guy to another white guy "shoot me nigga!" that's not normal. but he clearly felt as though he had a gun pointed at him in that little dust up and was furious about it. it seems he could not let it go and really wanted to fight a guy with a gun. not wise. but i don't know what caused him to start chasing the gunman in the first place. he got himself shot, which is a damn shame in its own right. huber, the skateboarder, was acting righteously after witnessing what he considered murder. and you have johnny sack out here posting skate or die memes. man, fuck a bunch of yall. 

[wildcat09 29266]

35 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

With a little more nuance this time:

To be there? Nope

To carry a gun? Nope

To defend himself in that circumstance? Sure.

 

You seem to be ignoring the repeated point that I and others have made that he had no right to defend himself from people who were trying to stop him from committing additional murders.

[BabaYaga 15214]

15 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Using broad generalities about race to try and prove a point is indeed racism.

And we're off......

[dcar00 14036]

I'm sure cops have millions of interactions a year with citizens(black, white, yellow, green, purple, brown) and 1000 or so people total are killed by cops a year.  some are very bad police decisions for which people should be accountable, absolutely but I'm guessing the vast majority are situations that are warranted.

[workswithseed 2037]

35 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Fixed for you. 

Dammit there I go again with my specifics and nuance. Sorry.

Hey, when you're city has been rioting for 93 days and counting, well you forget sometimes.

[fattyflattie 4636]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You seem to be ignoring the repeated point that I and others have made that he had no right to defend himself from people who were trying to stop him from committing additional murders.

Projecting much? He walked straight to police and tried to turn himself in.  
 

9 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

huber, the skateboarder, was acting righteously after witnessing what he considered murder.

Unlikely, but lets say what he witnessed wasn’t murder, but self defense.  How does that change your math? Still deserves a bridge to the back of the head?  

[wildcat09 29266]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Projecting much? He walked straight to police and tried to turn himself in.  
 

Unlikely, but lets say what he witnessed wasn’t murder, but self defense.  How does that change your math? Still deserves a bridge to the back of the head?  

How would what you quoted be projection?

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Modification of actual facts to make a point, nullifies the validity of the point.

I am a war hero with a Silver Star for my Seal duty, have a PHD in philosophy, a MBA, Law Degree and a MFA. I worked for the FBI and ACLU.

Therefore my points are based on knowledge and correct. So, you should shut the fuck up. You are out of your league Donny.

 

So... no MoH, eh?

 

Shitbird.

[52-80 19098]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

You seem to be ignoring the repeated point that I and others have made that he had no right to defend himself from people who were trying to stop him from committing additional murders.

The distortion of video evidence is incredible.  What part of the video shows his intent to "commit additional murders"?

Here's what the video shows:

* He's pursued by multiple people.  Shoots the 1 guy who corners him against the car.

* Sticks around and does not attack other people rendering help, etc

* Runs away after crowd urges 'get him'

* Falls down, and only shoots the 3 who *literally* were jumping on him.  1 of whom was armed. 

 

Tell me, where did you see his intent to shoot more people unprovoked?!??

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

How would what you quoted be projection?

See 52-80’s post.  Commit additional murders?  When he stood there like a lump and made a phone call?   When he literally went straight to the police?   He knew he was fucked the second he split the first guys head.  I don’t think he was thinking, still absolutely inexcusable imo, but I think he was shocked he actually hit #1, especially in the head.  You can see it all become real while he’s on the phone. 

[Doc Reeves 6434]

55 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

With a little more nuance this time:

To be there? Nope

To carry a gun? Nope

To defend himself in that circumstance? Sure.

 

I suppose he has the right to defend himself just like a burglar has the right to defend himself if I wakeup to him in my bedroom.

Just as in this case there are very different results for the other if one of us is killed by the other

 

[closetohumping 17406]

10 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The distortion of video evidence is incredible.  What part of the video shows his intent to "commit additional murders"?

Here's what the video shows:

* He's pursued by multiple people.  Shoots the 1 guy who corners him against the car.

* Sticks around and does not attack other people rendering help, etc

* Runs away after crowd urges 'get him'

* Falls down, and only shoots the 3 who *literally* were jumping on him.  1 of whom was armed. 

 

Tell me, where did you see his intent to shoot more people unprovoked?!??

 

He also didn't shoot the people who had their hands up.  Now the question becomes, is he a chubby little shit that was looking for trouble.  Probably. But, he looked like he was retreating and scared shitless.  Gaige had a gun, I don't give a shit that the little guy was a pedophile, immaterial to what's happening here.

[JBJ 3649]

Huber, et al, were within their right to pursue, tackle, and attempt an arrest, imo.

But that doesn't change the self-defense math.  Both parties can think that they are doing the right thing.