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Several shot during 3rd night of Kenosha riots

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 18,185

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22 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I did misread. You’re actually taking his argument to the extreme and asking him to justify it. Unless I missed something nowhere does he state police are blameless or that “minorities” are solely at fault. 

Because that is the historical context of his argument, as I explained above. That is how it has been used. 

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The “I used to vote Republican” line is the CR’s version of “I have a black friend.”   

hayden_horn
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so, yeah, this is the problem writ large. unarmed black dude, may be a threat, shot several times in the back. armed white dude, with an assault rifle present and visible, who just shot some people, w

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Kenosha's very own Sweet Corn Fest, held every August Jerry Smith Produce and Pumpkin Farm (7150 18th St.), would like you to know that they are here to support you during this difficult time. Wh

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 28,081

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3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Because that is the historical context of his argument, as I explained above. That is how it has been used. 

“Historical context of his argument” sounds an awful lot like setting up a straw man. His statements are right there. Argue against them or ask him to clarify. Don’t restate in the extreme and ask “isn’t this what you meant?”

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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3,462

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10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But as a citizen, I have little say in what any given individual person does.  I have a much greater say in what institutions, like GOVERNMENT institutions, that literally work for me do.

The problem with our approach is that it has been used, for decades, as a prerequisite and functional bar to institutional reform.  "Why should we address any supposed systemic issues until all black people make the best choices?"  It's functioned like a "literacy test" at the polls -- we hold black people to a standard we don't even hold the rest of society to before we'll take them seriously.  It's an excuse.

I don't blame the system alone for any individual failures or outcomes.  But I don't look at perfect individual accountability as a prerequisite for addressing our significantly broken systems.

Same story since blacks were set free. Black problems are pathological while white problems are societal. Crack epidemic, deindustrization of urban cores, government restrictions on black mobility = why don't those black people make better decisions. Manufacturing downturns, industries disappear, opiod crisis = we've failed middle america.  It's American as apple pie. 

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9,000

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Get out your Peaceful Protest bingo cards.  Make your predictions now for how many:

1.  Buildings get broken windows

2.  Five finger discount scrambles

3.  Buildings burn

4.  Vehicles burn

5.  Innocent drivers blocked

6.  Worse

Extra points if you can correctly predict how many fake versions of the shooting circulate on Twitter before midnight Pacifc.

Man shot, killed in South LA encounter with sheriff's deputies

...Monday evening, Sheriff's Department Lt. Brandon Dean offered a summary of what investigators had learned so far about the incident:

It began when deputies who were driving in the area saw a man riding a bicycle and decided to pull him over for a vehicle code violation in the area of 110th and Budlong.

The man dropped the bike and ran off. Deputies caught up to him on 109th. At that point, they say, the man fought with the deputies and punched one of them in the face.

He had been carrying some clothing in his hands and he dropped it the ground. The deputies spotted a handgun among the items of clothing he had dropped. At that point was when the shooting occurred. It was not immediately clear whether the man had been reaching for the gun. Investigators say they have to conduct interviews with the deputies to clarify the incident...

...Unlike the LAPD, Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies are not equipped with body cameras at this time. The department is expected to start deploying body cameras later this fall....

 

 

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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3,462

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15 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I'd really like to tell you why you're wrong, but I can't, because you aren't.

:::Sigh:::

Even Tucker Carlson can't tell me I'm wrong.

"And that was my biggest question about Carlson’s monologue, and the flurry of responses to it, and support for it: When other groups (say, black Americans) have pointed to systemic inequities within the economic system that have resulted in poverty and family dysfunction, the response from many on the right has been, shall we say, less than enthusiastic.

Yet white working-class poverty receives, from Carlson and others, far more sympathy. And conservatives are far more likely to identify with a criticism of “elites” when they believe those elites are responsible for the expansion of trans rights or creeping secularism than the wealthy and powerful people who are investing in private prisons or an expansion of the militarization of police. Carlson’s network, Fox News, and Carlson himself have frequently blasted leftist critics of market capitalism and efforts to fight inequality.

I asked Carlson about this, as his show is frequently centered on the turmoils caused by “demographic change.” He said that for decades, “conservatives just wrote [black economic struggles] off as a culture of poverty,” a line he includes in his monologue.

He added that regarding black poverty, “it’s pretty easy when you’ve got 12 percent of the population going through something to feel like, ‘Well, there must be ... there’s something wrong with that culture.’ Which is actually a tricky thing to say because it’s in part true, but what you’re missing, what I missed, what I think a lot of people missed, was that the economic system you’re living under affects your culture.”

Carlson said that growing up in Washington, DC, and spending time in rural Maine, he didn’t realize until recently that the same poverty and decay he observed in the Washington of the 1980s was also taking place in rural (and majority-white) Maine. “I was thinking, ‘Wait a second ... maybe when the jobs go away the culture changes,’” he told me, “And the reason I didn’t think of it before was because I was so blinded by this libertarian economic propaganda that I couldn’t get past my own assumptions about economics.” (For the record, libertarians have critiqued Carlson’s monologue as well.)"

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/10/18171912/tucker-carlson-fox-news-populism-conservatism-trump-gop

 

It's stating the obvious, but poverty really is a corrosive force. Your desperation and that of others becomes more palpable which leads to a scarcity mindset which affects your executive function and longterm thinking. Ultimately, poverty has disease like manifestations.  

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9,000

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"Edited out" may actually be he quit filming, then didn't start filming again until he heard the shots.  Unclear for now.

Livestream.  Right now looks pretty calm.  Perhaps the professionals haven't had a chance to arrive yet, just mostly locals.

 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 18,185

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11 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

“Historical context of his argument” sounds an awful lot like setting up a straw man. His statements are right there. Argue against them or ask him to clarify. Don’t restate in the extreme and ask “isn’t this what you meant?”

I'll stop derailing this thread after this post. It isn't a straw man either since I'm just trying to confirm his point rather than knock anything down. I mean, what do you think his point is? Because, if it isn't that black people only have themselves to blame, which is how his argument has been historically used, then I have no idea what point he could possibly be making. So, I'm asking him directly if his position is that unjust treatment of minorities doesn't happen. I like direct questions and direct answers. 

As an analogy, let's say someone entered into a discussion about peace in the middle east with the argument that we should enact a "final solution." Now, those words by themselves don't mean extermination of a people. The person could be using the phrase unintentionally, perhaps due to some ignorance of history. But, there is going to be a strong presumption that the person using the phrase means it exactly as it was historically used. Similarly, entering a discussion regarding mistreatment of black people by the police and saying (1) that problems are caused by people "who do dumb shit," (2) "not to have a history of domestic violence and not to wrestle folks in public, you wouldn't get shot," and following it up with (3) "Funny how that's what both of the diseased have in common, even though their skin color are different"  is going to create a presumption that you mean discrimination isn't a real problem and that black people only have themselves to blame. Maybe he doesn't mean that. Maybe he just entered the discussion to supply a non-sequitur. So, I asked him directly the intent of his posts, though I suspect I know the answer. 

One final though: you've already admitting to misreading my posts. Maybe you're also misreading his.  

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 28,081

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3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

So, I'm asking him directly if his position is that unjust treatment of minorities doesn't happen.

I don’t want to derail further either but he clearly doesn’t suggest this is his opinion. You restated what you think his position is in the most extreme terms and asked him if that’s what he meant.  That is not a good faith attempt to understand his position IMO

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11,861

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2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t want to derail further either but he clearly doesn’t suggest this is his opinion. You restated what you think his position is in the most extreme terms and asked him if that’s what he meant.  That is not a good faith attempt to understand his position IMO

But it is Surly Leftist 101.

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TexasEd

TexasEd 8,248

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On 8/27/2020 at 2:34 PM, hayden_horn said:

the victim is clearly holding some kind of plastic bag in the lead up to the shooting, and he is fucking pissed because he felt that the guy pointed a gun at him. that's why the shooter's fellow larpers keep pulling him back, trying to de-escalate the situation (to their credit). i don't know what's in the bag, but it doesn't look like a molotov cocktail to me.

It's piss

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RDCanecutter

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22 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

What's the Bezos hate/guillotine situation?  Because he's rich, he needs to die?  Or is he pro-police or something I haven't seen?

Bezos is killing the US Guillotine industry with cheap Chinese knock-off guillotines. The example you see placed in front of his house was a hand-crafted American guillotine built to exacting standards. A normal man would have been shamed into doing right by the guillotine-using world. Not Bezos.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26,439

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8 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Bezos is killing the US Guillotine industry with cheap Chinese knock-off guillotines. The example you see placed in front of his house was a hand-crafted American guillotine built to exacting standards. A normal man would have been shamed into doing right by the guillotine-using world. Not Bezos.

A man, a plan, a canal, Panama

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52-80

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8 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

I'll stop derailing this thread after this post. It isn't a straw man either since I'm just trying to confirm his point rather than knock anything down. I mean, what do you think his point is? Because, if it isn't that black people only have themselves to blame, which is how his argument has been historically used, then I have no idea what point he could possibly be making. So, I'm asking him directly if his position is that unjust treatment of minorities doesn't happen. I like direct questions and direct answers. 

As an analogy, let's say someone entered into a discussion about peace in the middle east with the argument that we should enact a "final solution." Now, those words by themselves don't mean extermination of a people. The person could be using the phrase unintentionally, perhaps due to some ignorance of history. But, there is going to be a strong presumption that the person using the phrase means it exactly as it was historically used. Similarly, entering a discussion regarding mistreatment of black people by the police and saying (1) that problems are caused by people "who do dumb shit," (2) "not to have a history of domestic violence and not to wrestle folks in public, you wouldn't get shot," and following it up with (3) "Funny how that's what both of the diseased have in common, even though their skin color are different"  is going to create a presumption that you mean discrimination isn't a real problem and that black people only have themselves to blame. Maybe he doesn't mean that. Maybe he just entered the discussion to supply a non-sequitur. So, I asked him directly the intent of his posts, though I suspect I know the answer. 

One final though: you've already admitting to misreading my posts. Maybe you're also misreading his.  

1 white guy shot 3 white guys, but you still want to make it about racial victimization so bad.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 18,185

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16 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

1 white guy shot 3 white guys, but you still want to make it about racial victimization so bad.

This conversation wasn't limited to discussing the shooting in Kenosha. Rather, we were discussing the types of discrimination that exist in society and how to address them. Here are the two posts that started it:

On 8/30/2020 at 9:35 PM, Brisketexan said:


Actually, yes. There’s a good bit of evidence that adjusting for other factors (like wealth, or education), whites will materially out-earn a black person (same goes for Hispanics, although not as severe).

And we all know that driving while black is a thing - much more likely to have an unprompted encounter with law enforcement.

I really don’t understand why it’s so hard to admit that we still have material systemic racism here. Yes, it can be overcome...but it shouldn’t have to be.

 

On 8/31/2020 at 10:24 AM, 52-80 said:

Aren't you a 1st or 2nd generation Hispanic American? 

 

If i'm right, what sort of discrimination did you face in your life?  and what could society have done to rectify it?

 

What im getting at is realistic, net-positive, actionable things, rather than just empty rhetoric

I then answered with some examples of things that could be done, including having cops not shoot minorities. You responded with:

"Just like that huh?  And if I suggested not to have a history of domestic violence and not to wrestle folks in public, you wouldn't get shot, is that fair? Funny how that's what both of the diseased have in common, even though their skin color are different."

So, no, I'm not making this particular shooting about racial victimization. But, in context of the conversation we were having, you suggested that the way to avoid cops shooting minorities would be to "not have a history of domestic violence and not to wrestle folks in public." 

So, answer my questions, do you admit that systemic discrimination exists in this country? Do you admit that minorities (particularly, blacks) are disproportionately and unjustly targeted by the police? Do you admit that the police in general deal with them more harshly than white people? 

 

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Samson's Wig

Samson's Wig 3,222

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8 hours ago, dcar00 said:

just wait until this shit hits Palm Springs.

seriously though, google whitest city in America and guess what comes up....you guessed it, Portland

I would have guessed Portland or Austin.  Bumfuck Wisconsin/Minnesota/etc. would have to be on that list as well, but I'm guessing we're talking about over a certain population size.

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Samson's Wig

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3 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Austin barely has a white plurality.

Perhaps in the greater Austin area, but I don't know if I trust the old numbers regarding Austin proper.  It's the whitest place I've ever lived, and seems to be getting whiter every decade. 

Q: But what do I know?  A: not much at all, really.

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huge

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9 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Perhaps in the greater Austin area, but I don't know if I trust the old numbers regarding Austin proper.  It's the whitest place I've ever lived, and seems to be getting whiter every decade.

Hispanic doesnt equal white.  So no where in Texas is remotely that WHITE

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Samson's Wig

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I agree there.  I just think the numbers have changed dramatically since the last census.  According to that old data, Austin is around 50% white (non-hispanic), basically on par with Houston and Dallas.  I think those numbers have shifted dramatically in the last decade, but we'll see when we get the numbers.

Families, of all racial makeups, have been driven out of Austin in droves the last couple of decades.  The most recent ten years have seen this flight explode.  Minorities have almost certainly been disproportionately impacted.  But my initial assertion was based on nothing more than personal observation.  Will be interesting to see the numbers when they come out.

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dcar00

dcar00 14,902

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2 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I would have guessed Portland or Austin.  Bumfuck Wisconsin/Minnesota/etc. would have to be on that list as well, but I'm guessing we're talking about over a certain population size.

yea I am sure they mean major cities.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,618

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4 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I’m pretty sure Stay-puft jr would have headed for the hills at the sight of the British.  

Probably not.  But he sure as shit would have been a Loyalist.  Nothing says LAW AND ORDER like company after company of well-trained redcoats, working on the orders of an authoritarian ruler.

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