Several shot during 3rd night of Kenosha riots

[Celery Man 20886]

3 minutes ago, Blotto said:

TIL that white people are genetically predisposed to be scared of black people, but not asian, hispanic etc.... 

it's not genetic (obviously, and of course nobody is saying that at all). it's our (humanity) entire history and the echoes and repercussions of that history

Edited August 26, 2020 by Celery Man

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

10 minutes ago, Helobious said:

The rioting is what we deserve imo. Our society has repeatedly made it clear over the years that if you want attention, the best way to get it is by acting violent. You want your name immortalized forever? Grab a gun and kill a bunch of people. You want to be on the news, or for people to be aware of your cause? Light some shit on fire. You just wanna peacefully march in the streets? Lol go get a job you Marxist, no one cares. Also I fully support people running you over or shooting you.

Naa. The media got the narrative they have been pushing. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

And even that doesn't answer the question.  Even if you could find one featuring one white  black guy, would you be able to find a proportionate number?  Almost certainly not.  Because black people are shot in disproportionate numbers.

Fify, I think.  Well no shit.  But we were just talking one off shoves too, so I assumed 1 vid would be enough... 

There are all sorts of disproportional aspects we can discuss - wealth, violent crime committed, drug use, leeway from authority, that all play a role in this.   I'm not arguing that blacks dont have it 100x tougher wrt law enforcement than whites.  I'm simply saying, if you get tased, then fight off 3 officers, then make your way to your car and reach into it, all while *allegedly* holding a weapon meant only to maim, then expect some holes in your back.  I don't see why that's an unreasonable assertion, or has anything to do with race.     

[Ghost of LL 15492]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

Fify, I think.  Well no shit.  But we were just talking one off shoves too, so I assumed 1 vid would be enough... 

There are all sorts of disproportional aspects we can discuss - wealth, violent crime committed, drug use, leeway from authority, that all play a role in this.   I'm not arguing that blacks dont have it 100x tougher wrt law enforcement than whites.  I'm simply saying, if you get tased, then fight off 3 officers, then make your way to your car and reach into it, all while *allegedly* holding a weapon meant only to maim, then expect some holes in your back.  I don't see why that's an unreasonable assertion, or has anything to do with race.     

I have to tell you, I don't think I agree.  I think that's when a taser can/should be used.  Or else you can use a baton to the knees.

But I don't think deadly force is appropriate right there.

[Helobious 9481]

7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Naa. The media got the narrative they have been pushing. 

I think the media just feeds us what we want. But I guess that’s a different discussion.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

I'm not sure I have any answers, but I know this. Twitter is cancer and there are people fanning the flames of hatred on it. Social Media was a mistake.

[fattyflattie 4636]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I have to tell you, I don't think I agree.  I think that's when a taser can/should be used.  Or else you can use a baton to the knees.

But I don't think deadly force is appropriate right there.

That's OK too.  You and I aren't cops, and I'm pretty sure neither of us would do for 10x their pay

 

My understanding is they did taser him at some point, there are two videos if you haven't seen the second. 

Does your math change if it's confirmed he had the knife (can't tackle him) and they do find a firearm under his seat?  Dude was known to brandish arms on people as recently as 60 days ago.  The polices heightened aggressiveness (if they know that) is completely understandable at that point, imo.  

Edited August 26, 2020 by fattyflattie

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm not sure I have any answers, but I know this. Twitter is cancer and there are people fanning the flames of hatred on it. Social Media was a mistake.

Those IG models tho...

[VABuckeye 2472]

In the words of George Carlin.

Quote

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Those IG models tho...

Kids need to learn to fap to Playboys that their other brothers left in a garbage bag in the woods. WORK FOR IT KIDS!

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Kids need to learn to fap to Playboys that their other brothers left in a garbage bag in the woods. WORK FOR IT KIDS!

It's always the porn found in the woods.  Like we all lived the same damn childhood.  Amazing. 

[Ghost of LL 15492]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Does your math change if it's confirmed he had the knife (can't tackle him) and they do find a firearm under his seat?  Dude was known to brandish arms on people as recently as 60 days ago.  The polices heightened aggressiveness (if they know that) is completely understandable at that point, imo.  

No--the decision is made based on the information at the time, not the information that becomes known after searching the car.

[hayden_horn 11360]

50 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

It’s starts at home and how you’re raised but no one wants to have that convo.  No one wants to address these dumbasses with rap sheets a mile along of violent actions fighting the cops disobeying commands and running to the car because personal accountability just doesn’t fall in line with societal views.   At this day in age with all the media coverage if your dumbass decides you wanna test some dumbass cop fight them and keep it real. Real is gonna get kept. Now this fucking loser has 1.3mil in a go fund me account. 

All of this right here 

so, yeah, it starts at home. but you seem to have missed the entire fucking point.

the reason why black lives matter is a thing is because this country has not acted as though black lives matter. we've intentionally enacted policies that disenfranchise black people, give them jail and prison time at a high rate, even for minimal drug possession, segregated them into poor neighborhoods, among probably a dozen other things like getting pulled over for driving while black, and you wonder why they are angry?  

a cop shot a guy in the back for unclear reasons. in front of his children. in this day and age where cities are protesting because black lives matter, and now it's cool to be white and carrying an assault rifle at low ready while protests are happening around, and the cops throw him a bottle of water. meanwhile, black people are getting gunned down, choked out, assaulted by cops, and protesters are taking tear gas canisters to the head. 

when the system is set up to get you in the system, which it is for many many black folks, you learn to distrust and disrespect the system.

why do you think this song was a thing?

in 19fucking88. that's more than 30 fucking years ago, and how are things markedly different for black folks?

[fattyflattie 4636]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

No--the decision is made based on the information at the time, not the information that becomes known after searching the car.

And at that time, especially if they are aware of his recent past, it's as likely he's reaching for a weapon as he is trying to drive away.  

I'm asking if the math changes for you.  If he was reaching for a gun, after physically resisting, can the officer defend himself?  Your take.  Or should it be baton vs gun?

[Ghost of LL 15492]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

And at that time, especially if they are aware of his recent past, it's as likely he's reaching for a weapon as he is trying to drive away.  

I'm asking if the math changes for you.  If he was reaching for a gun, after physically resisting, can the officer defend himself?  Your take.  Or should it be baton vs gun?

If you see a gun, then you can shoot.  But until you see that gun, you're just guessing.  And don't tell me that the cop's guess isn't based in part on the guy's race.

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

If you see a gun, then you can shoot.  But until you see that gun, you're just guessing.  And don't tell me that the cop's guess isn't based in part on the guy's race.

the thing i do not understand is that we hold our troops, in a foreign fucking warzone, to a higher standard than we hold our cops, in our own fucking country. and people are fine with the whole idea of "well, he might be getting a gun, so i can shoot him, the math adds up." rules of engagement for cops in this country are ridiculously low.

[fattyflattie 4636]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

If you see a gun, then you can shoot.  But until you see that gun, you're just guessing.  And don't tell me that the cop's guess isn't based in part on the guy's race.

Might be.  Might be the fact the guy had just committed a crime with a gun a month ago, resisted apprehension, and made a move to his car.  But sure, all about race.  Lucky the other 20 black folks that were at the scene all didn't get shot too, I guess.  For you know, being black. 

[bolverk 29403]

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

It's always the porn found in the woods.  Like we all lived the same damn childhood.  Amazing. 

I, for one, grew up in the scrub brush of West Texas so it wasn't really the woods - more like under a mesquite bush and next to a clump of prickly pears down in the canyon.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Watch the video. He wasn't "digging around in his car". He was starting to reach into it when the shots began.

[Brisketexan 104628]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I’ve seen this talking point a bunch and it certainly resonated with me over my criticism of Kap.  However, does anyone think the Floyd tragedy would just magically eradicate all the terrible elements of LE?  No, this shit is going to continue to happen and hopefully, gradually dissipate. People can’t lose their heads every time one of these incidents occurs. And they will most certainly continue to occur. 

They will.  But you know what would go a long way towards tamping down the tension?  A systemic, trustworthy approach and infrastructure to dealing with police misconduct (and a purposeful public communication of that approach by leadership).  Something like the "8 can't wait" initiative, plus some real changes to the legal matrix of investigating and prosecuting police misconduct, SPECIFICALLY including criminalizing "aiding and abetting" such misconduct by silence or inaction by fellow cops, and also including removal or significant restriction of "qualified immunity."  In short, don't just say, but actually demonstrate, that police will be subject to the rule of law, and will no longer be able to act outside the rule of law (which they can right now).

So, there will continue to be bad acts.  But the cops involved will be subject to a third-party mechanism of justice that applies to them just like it would apply to you or me if we shot someone or choked him to death.  That way, the politicians pleading "please let the process work" would have some credibility -- because right now, the process is "the cops investigated themselves and found themselves innocent, and even if you sue, qualified immunity is an insurmountable bar to liability.  So get fucked."

And yes, national messaging matters.  The Executive branch (the white house and particularly the DOJ) coming out with a comprehensive plan, that involves actual action, to deal with the crisis of policing, would do a LOT to calm the nation.  I have no problem if that plan goes hand-in-hand with a plan to crack down on people who commit violence during protests -- if leadership would simply state a message of "the people, and particularly the black community have a right to protest, and deserve to have their voices heard.  They do NOT deserve to have their messages drowned out by acts of violence that only hurt the community.  People committing violence will be dealt with with the full force of the law, and we will use that same full force of the law to ensure that people are allowed to peacefully protest, and are safe when they do so."  It's not hard to lead on this issue, and to calm tensions.  It's really not.  But we have ZERO interest in doing so -- in fact, we have a leadership class that has a vested interest in fanning the flames of even more violence.

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

Might be.  Might be the fact the guy had just committed a crime with a gun a month ago, resisted apprehension, and made a move to his car.  But sure, all about race.  Lucky the other 20 black folks that were at the scene all didn't get shot too, I guess.  For you know, being black. 

man, i try to give the benefit of the doubt for most posters, but i kind of feel like saying "fuck you, man." police should be held to a higher standard than "might be." that's fucking madness, dude.

might be. 

fucking hell.

[Incredulity 11555]

17 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm not sure I have any answers, but I know this. Twitter is cancer and there are people fanning the flames of hatred on it. Social Media was a mistake.

Stopped at a sportsbar for a beer a couple weeks ago.

The WIFI password was something in the spirit of , "getyourfaceoutofyourphone"

 

Sage advice.

[Juicy 723]

3 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

 

Well he asked for it...

 

 

 

 

There’s so much stupid in this.Look at the guys holding the long rifles and captain spiers in his plaid shirt with a tactical vest and helmet ordering his soldiers of halfwits to do something.

I can't tell what is more ironic, the dude saying "shoot me nigga" (who is by all appearances white) getting shot. Or the guy from Austin who said "these pussies wont do anything" getting shot. 

People getting killed sucks, but use your fucking head and avoid situations where you are likely to get killed....

[dcar00 14035]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

You think people are rioting, protesting, and demanding police reform because of the dude that sits in the White House? And not because, you know, videos keep surfacing of police officers killing folks? Well okie dokie then.

IMO it is a large part of it but its certainly not all of it...

Edited August 26, 2020 by dcar00

[Zepol87 9171]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

IMO it is a large part of it but its certainly not all of it...

It is definitely not a large part of it. 

[VABuckeye 2472]

It's social breakdown on all levels.  Whites raised to mistrust blacks.  Blacks raised not to trust whites and cops.  Poor people all over not emphasizing the educational system.  Not enough in place for people to see a way out of what's around them.  Etc, etc, etc.

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

IMO it is a large part of it but its certainly not all of it...

I don't disagree.  When the issue is "hey, black people are getting shit on by the cops, and we'd like it to stop," it exacerbates the situation when the message from the top is, to peaceful protesters "shut up you unpatriotic sonofobitch," and when there's zero acknowledgement of the valid reasons for protest, just consistent lumping all protests and protesters together as "violent thugs" who should be crushed.  The admin didn't have to be part of the pushback, but it chose to, which is maddening.  I posted above a pretty easy approach for Executive Branch leadership to take that acknowledges both the legitimate serious issues with police and the need for peace and order, but we haven't gotten that.  So, people are pissed.  The Executive Branch shouldn't "take sides" -- it should try to be objective, acknowledge the problems and concerns all they way around, and deal with them.  Instead, it's gone full-on "we back the blue and fuck the thugs."  I really wish it hadn't.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

53 minutes ago, Blotto said:

TIL that white people are genetically predisposed to be scared of black people, but not asian, hispanic etc.... 

No. We are genetically predisposed to be afraid of any group that is other from our own group. It’s a fact. We don’t have to like it. We can work to overcome it. But

it exists. To pretend it doesn’t is foolish. Btw- this isn’t a conservative/regressive point!  It’s the basis for a whole shit load of

diversity training even. 
 

[fattyflattie 4636]

22 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

man, i try to give the benefit of the doubt for most posters, but i kind of feel like saying "fuck you, man." police should be held to a higher standard than "might be." that's fucking madness, dude.

might be. 

fucking hell.

We wont know until the city releases it, that's where the "might be" comes from.  If they didn't have knowledge of his recent violence spree, then it makes it a bit harder to justify imo.  

And I agree, our police should be held to a higher standard.  Unfortunately it's a shit job dealing with criminals and doesn't pay that well.  So we have the guys you would expect, imo.   As for the "fuck you", it's surly.  That's expected, man. 

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I agree he is wrong in ALL incidences, doubt that’s what he meant, and as a WASP, I’d be fearful of any altercation with police, and would never resist their commands. Because they have the ability to kill me. 

Yeah, it's the smart, safe play.

But if Whitey McWhiterson makes a poor play, and Blackie McBlackerson makes the exact same poor play, every one of us knows that Whitey has a lot better odds of walking away from that encounter than Blackie does.

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

We wont know until the city releases it, that's where the "might be" comes from.  If they didn't have knowledge of his recent violence spree, then it makes it a bit harder to justify imo.  

And I agree, our police should be held to a higher standard.  Unfortunately it's a shit job dealing with criminals and doesn't pay that well.  So we have the guys you would expect, imo.   As for the "fuck you", it's surly.  That's expected, man. 

haha at "doesn't pay that well." jesus, dude, do you have any intellectual curiosity? the starting salary, before any overtime, is higher in kenosha than the median us income, and it doesn't require a 4 year degree barrier of entry. it pays well. i admit that it could be paid a bit better, but i think that for most public servants, including teachers and firefighters. they also get a pension.

they should absolutely be held to a higher standard than "might be." in that moment that cop does not know if that dude is a threat to anyone, so he...shoots him? and that's your standard?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

36 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

If you see a gun, then you can shoot.  But until you see that gun, you're just guessing.  And don't tell me that the cop's guess isn't based in part on the guy's race.

Also on sex and age also.  Males make up 97 percent of police shootings.  And it’s mostly under 40.  That isn’t because cops are sexist against males or dislike younger people.  If this guy was 65 and a female with the same color, unlikely a shooting   

A young white male is much more likely to be shot than a middle aged black woman.   

The truth is cops aren’t perfect.   Police shootings correlate to any demographic’s share of violent crime.   Whether it’s race, gender, age, etc   

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah, it's the smart, safe play.

But if Whitey McWhiterson makes a poor play, and Blackie McBlackerson makes the exact same poor play, every one of us knows that Whitey has a lot better odds of walking away from that encounter than Blackie does.

Now do gender.  

[Brisketexan 104628]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Why on earth would you do this?

1 -- because he was drunk and stupid

2 -- because deep down, he also knew that as white dude, in a big crowd, the cop was likely to let him off as he had bigger shit to worry about.

 

Both things are true.

[ztejas 43266]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This is a really smart point. 
I’m sure there’s plenty of macho macho men on here who ain’t scared of shit and would walk through Harlem dressed like Bruce Willis I’m die hard without breaking a sweat, but 80? 90? Percent of the population is more likely to get scared seeing a black guy than a white guy. 
part of it is natural!  It’s literally July into our dna to be afraid of other. It helped us survive and evolve for thousands of years. But it’s a problem in this context. 

Strange example. I'd walk every inch of Manhattan in the middle of the night before walking around certain neighborhoods in Dallas in broad daylight.

[Brisketexan 104628]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Now do gender.  

Sure, same result.  Chick has a much better chance of walking away.

That doesn't vindicate police.  It does, like, the exact opposite.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

"it's okay for people to be shot, because there's pent up aggression as a result of systemic discrimination" -some surly poster

Also, dead guy probably had insurance.  

[Brisketexan 104628]

Just now, ztejas said:

Strange example. I'd walk every inch of Manhattan in the middle of the night before walking around certain neighborhoods in Dallas in broad daylight.

And if you're black, one of those Dallas hoods is Highland Park.  You're just ASKING for the cops to pull up and draw on you.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Sure, same result.  Chick has a much better chance of walking away.

That doesn't vindicate police.  It does, like, the exact opposite.

You think maybe police are more afraid of young black males for a reason that might be rational and based on interactions they have routinely?

[hayden_horn 11360]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Now do gender.  

now do "white guys walking around with assault rifles at low ready"

oh, right.

[Pancho 44487]

 

[The Ace of Aces 5106]

I’m late to this story, but let me get this straight:

• A white nationalist kid showed up to a protest not involving him whatsoever and straight up shot people to kill them. 
• Cops watched the murders happen, talked with him and let him walk by - even made hand gestures with each other.
• There now is manhunt for him due to state charges - cause local police were celebrating a white kid murdering Black people. 

[Zepol87 9171]

1 minute ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Cops don’t draw on blacks here. But they will ascertain their business in the neighborhood if they look out of place and usher them out of neighborhood. 

Can you describe what out of place looks like in Highland Park?

[clapclapclap 9000]

3 hours ago, bolverk said:

Also, why the separate thread?

1.  Because as I was creating the thread there were lots of twitter reports of multiple shooting scenes across the city with lots of bodies.  We hadn't seen that before, and could be a trigger for a much worse new phase of unrest.  Thankfully it ended up not being that bad, but we still have at least 1 person dead and don't know if there will be retaliatory violence.  For 3 months radical groups across the spectrum (whether you want to blame Antifa or some Boogity Boogity Boogity Boys) have been trying to trigger a Kent State, that they can use as a bloody shirt to excuse future escalated destruction and violence.    

 2.  While related, the other Kenosha thread about Officer Triggerhappy is a somewhat different discussion.

3.  The 'Summer riots/protests damage & tactics documentation thread (no politics, please)' is supposed to be, you know, to document without the endless political debating.  But Bad Teammate, Brisket, Onboard, Baby Yoda, et. al. seem to want to go back and forth stating the same political arguments over and over.  (and some appear to filibuster certain threads until the news and images they don't like are buried in mind numbing blather a few pages back that nobody has time to wade through.)  So I left "No politics" out of this thread's title, maybe all that can be drawn over here instead.  Mods can mod as they wish.

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Can you describe what out of place looks like in Highland Park?

Grey slacks. 

[dcar00 14035]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah, it's the smart, safe play.

But if Whitey McWhiterson makes a poor play, and Blackie McBlackerson makes the exact same poor play, every one of us knows that Whitey has a lot better odds of walking away from that encounter than Blackie does.

 black cops shoot black people and white people.  hispanic cops do the same. white cops do the same.  There are more white cops.   If Copy McCoperson and Dude McDuderson both make a poor play the cop wins(almost always but not every time).  People may not like it but the reality is Dude McDuderson needs to not make a poor play.

IMO, Dude McDuderson is generally not intelligent in the first place and Copy McCoperson is for sure no rocket surgeon.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

6 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Can you describe what out of place looks like in Highland Park?

Not white? 

[clapclapclap 9000]

4 hours ago, Celery Man said:

you'd probably need footage from before he killed someone

See the bottom of post #4, and:

(You can see it at :14)

But of course there's alternate narratives:

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by clapclapclap

[dcar00 14035]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Black

i think you mean blek.

[Juicy 723]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/investigators-focus-on-armed-white-vigilantes-after-2-shooting-deaths-in-kenosha-protests_n_5f465ffbc5b6cf66b2b131c2

This kid looks 12. Looking at the view where he attempts to surrender (apparently) to the police and they just tell him to keep moving while some dude says "that dude just shot some people" is mind blowing.