Several shot during 3rd night of Kenosha riots

[jinx 2635]

The first thing they need to do is fucking ARREST a cop that cold blooded shoots / kills anyone, black or otherwise.  To hear that those officers are on "administrative leave" instead of behind bars is an absolute farce.  I imagine something as simple and common sense as that would reduce the level of aggravation and violence.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

4 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

No. We are genetically predisposed to be afraid of any group that is other from our own group. It’s a fact. We don’t have to like it. We can work to overcome it. But

it exists. To pretend it doesn’t is foolish. Btw- this isn’t a conservative/regressive point!  It’s the basis for a whole shit load of

diversity training even. 
 

Viewing oneself as white or black is a fairly new phenomenon. Probably only around 500 or 600 years old.  The tribal instinctual response you're trying to describe here isn't cast along "racial lines" it's actually historically more applicable to the response people have when someone outside of your extended family appears rather than what we feel about those from another race. The things we see in America are more of a response to things that diverge outside of our everyday adherence to societal expectations which is more or less akin to an adherence to a caste structure. Like being at a cocktail party and a white guy mistakenly thinking a fellow party goer who happens to be black is part of the waitstaff. That isn't necessarily a racist reaction it's a reaction to the divergence from the everyday expectations that our caste system has ingrained in us.  

Edited August 26, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[Zepol87 9172]

2 minutes ago, jinx said:

The first thing they need to do is fucking ARREST a cop that cold blooded shoots / kills anyone, black or otherwise.  To hear that those officers are on "administrative leave" instead of behind bars is an absolute farce.  I imagine something as simple and common sense as that would reduce the level of aggravation and violence.

This would honestly go a long way

Edited August 26, 2020 by Zepol87

[wildcat09 29260]

Just now, jinx said:

The first thing they need to do is fucking ARREST a cop that cold blooded shoots / kills anyone, black or otherwise.  To hear that those officers are on "administrative leave" instead of behind bars is an absolute farce.  I imagine something as simple and common sense as that would reduce the level of aggravation and violence.

Briana Taylor and Elijah McClain's murderers are all still free and some people wonder why black people are mad.

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I feel I’m in a middle of two smart factions just yelling past each other, and I get tired and go home and jerk off. 

While not a solution, that's rarely an unwise decision.

[dcar00 14036]

personally I think cops should stop trying to arrest people that are resisting.  just let them go.  they do it in Northern California all the time now.

[DanRydell 799]

4 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I'd like to hear this story.

It's not that exciting. I was 17. I was pulled over with some friends while driving around on Halloween. I was asked to get out of the car, which I did. I was told I was pulled over because my car matched the description of a car that had thrown an egg at a small child and caused him to fall and break his arm. I don't know if that was true but they repeatedly tried to intimidate me into allowing them to search my car so I deduced they didn't actually have enough to search me or they wouldn't keep asking for permission. I told them to go ahead and detain me if they have probable cause to do so but otherwise I'm going to go ahead and leave, walked toward my car while telling them to go fuck themselves, got in my car, and drove off with my friends. It wasn't the best way to handle things but I was a teenage shitbag libertarian know-it-all.

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Okay, I get it’s maddening. But it’s maddening to me that a) people like me in positions to do something about it feel that way as you describe above, and b) in a lot of these videos, Kenosha definitely included, people like most posters on this board excuse the pre-shot behavior.

The key is who do we hold to a higher standard, and why?

Jacob Blake isn't my employee.  He doesn't wear my country/state flag on his uniform.  I don't pay his salary and pension.  He isn't doing a job that is expressly to serve and protect the entire public.

A cop is all of those things.  Thus, I hold him to the higher standard.  It doesn't mean I excuse Blake.  It means that I speak to the institution and people who 1) work for me, and 2) who should know and do better in the course and scope of doing that job for me.

We already HAVE a system for dealing with people like Jacob Blake -- it's a very efficient system.  It fills prisons at a rate above that of any other country on earth.  So, that one is a lesser concern for me.

[staboner 4959]

23 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Johnny Sack in contention for the all-time most ignorant, worst series of posts on surly, shaggy hornsfans, geocities, prodigy, aol online, compuserve, uunet, telegraph history. With guys like this running around with this mindset, no wonder blacks are afraid.

Learn to ignore people, people. Entire western society would take a step up if we could just stop ourselves from being outraged by the same fucking people over and over again

Do people not pay attention to posters names or history at all? Or just not care? 

[Rougarou 594]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

personally I think cops should stop trying to arrest people that are resisting.  just let them go.  they do it in Northern California all the time now.

It's like the stealing from Wal-mart model, just let them go and catch them on something else later?

It's going to get to the point that shooting someone, however justified, is going to be in the back of a cops mind as a no-no. We'll see.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

personally I think cops should stop trying to arrest people that are resisting.  just let them go.  they do it in Northern California all the time now.

Or a nightstick to the side of the knee. Whatever happened to those?

[Gourmand 7774]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Briana Taylor and Elijah McClain's murderers are all still free and some people wonder why black people are mad.

 

Juxtaposed against this guy getting his cosplay fantasy with live rounds two months before Halloween. I'd want to break shit too. 

 

 

 

 

[mchookem 16225]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Perfect example of why some people shouldn’t be armed. They get upset or in a tough situation and they want use their weapon to get out of it. Even if you’re about to catch a beating, it doesn’t give you the right to light up everyone in the immediate area. You can do it but you should hopefully learn what prison is like soon.

i mean...there are just fucking guns EVERYWHERE now. just like the three yahoos here in Austin. jfc SO MANY GOTDAMN GUNS just being brandished anywhere, everywhere, anytime. my god we are stupid 😟

[DanRydell 799]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The key is who do we hold to a higher standard, and why?

Jacob Blake isn't my employee.  He doesn't wear my country/state flag on his uniform.  I don't pay his salary and pension.  He isn't doing a job that is expressly to serve and protect the entire public.

A cop is all of those things.  Thus, I hold him to the higher standard.  It doesn't mean I excuse Blake.  It means that I speak to the institution and people who 1) work for me, and 2) who should know and do better in the course and scope of doing that job for me.

We already HAVE a system for dealing with people like Jacob Blake -- it's a very efficient system.  It fills prisons at a rate above that of any other country on earth.  So, that one is a lesser concern for me.

Yup. No use of force policy is going to result in the right decision being made 100% of the time. But errors should be made on the side of underusing lethal force, not overusing it.

[VABuckeye 2472]

30 minutes ago, Helobious said:

You know there’s hundreds if not thousands of interactions between black people and cops everyday right? 

And about 15 unarmed black men are shot and killed by police each year.  Granted, it's 15 too many.

[Aqua Buddha 14522]

Triggers warning for some:

[dcar00 14036]

18 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

It's not that exciting. I was 17. I was pulled over with some friends while driving around on Halloween. I was asked to get out of the car, which I did. I was told I was pulled over because my car matched the description of a car that had thrown an egg at a small child and caused him to fall and break his arm. I don't know if that was true but they repeatedly tried to intimidate me into allowing them to search my car so I deduced they didn't actually have enough to search me or they wouldn't keep asking for permission. I told them to go ahead and detain me if they have probable cause to do so but otherwise I'm going to go ahead and leave, walked toward my car while telling them to go fuck themselves, got in my car, and drove off with my friends. It wasn't the best way to handle things but I was a teenage shitbag libertarian know-it-all.

what do you think would have happened if you had a warrant? or a weapon?

[Zepol87 9172]

I remember that one. Kid with a toy gun. Sickening

[dcar00 14036]

17 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Or a nightstick to the side of the knee. Whatever happened to those?

rodney king?

[dcar00 14036]

18 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

It's like the stealing from Wal-mart model, just let them go and catch them on something else later?

It's going to get to the point that shooting someone, however justified, is going to be in the back of a cops mind as a no-no. We'll see.

maybe some good ole cowboy movie warning shots between the boots.

[wildcat09 29260]

20 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

It's like the stealing from Wal-mart model, just let them go and catch them on something else later?

It's going to get to the point that shooting someone, however justified, is going to be in the back of a cops mind as a no-no. We'll see.

Shooting someone should be a fucking “no-no” for cops.

[Rougarou 594]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Shooting someone should be a fucking “no-no” for cops.

That is where it's headed. I think the nuance here is that there used to exist a space for "justified shooting" or whatever they call it down at the precinct, but we are getting to the point where there will need to be, at a minimum, a 12-month suspension of rank-and-file cops from carrying lethal weapons or something. 

[Blotto 23434]

10 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Triggers warning for some:

Well you see, as Beeper has explained many times, life's not fair. Nothing we can do about it, everyone just needs to accept that and behave accordingly. 

[dcar00 14036]

2 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

That is where it's headed. I think the nuance here is that there used to exist a space for "justified shooting" or whatever they call it down at the precinct, but we are getting to the point where there will need to be, at a minimum, a 12-month suspension of rank-and-file cops from carrying lethal weapons or something. 

that'll be interesting.  maybe we could just go no laws, no need for police, protect yourself however you see fit and see what happens.  certainly first step is don't try to arrest anyone.  maybe we have cops driving around as a general visible deterrent but not allowed to get out of their cars.  they can roll down windows and talk or get on loudspeakers like Elwood.

[Rougarou 594]

6 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

that'll be interesting.  maybe we could just go no laws, no need for police, protect yourself however you see fit and see what happens.  certainly first step is don't try to arrest anyone.  maybe we have cops driving around as a general visible deterrent but not allowed to get out of their cars.  they can roll down windows and talk or get on loudspeakers like Elwood.

I think the idea is to, essentially, decriminalize petty crime for black folks. Shoplifting a cigarello, passing off a fake twenty, simple assault/fighting, weed, etc. because that is a better alternative, for the next 12 months while you get some time to fix this thing, then keeping the judgment in the hands of the cops who can't seem to stop themselves from shooting black people. Add to that, that any shooting of a black man for the foreseeable future, however justified or honest, will be viewed as murder because of all the noise of the dishonest/murder we've seen this year.

There is just no value or positive gain for cops having lethal weapons right now (or maybe ever again? I don't know) because even if 1% of all shootings is a bad shooting, the visibility and the wattage is like the sun right now on any police shooting.

 

We'll see.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Rougarou

[Celery Man 20886]

I haven't followed this thread since early afternoon, so I'm sure we've all come to the agreement that while nobody is clearly in the "right" here, the people who are most in the wrong have been the ones that shot the other humans to death.  Good chat guys.

[Ignatius 4002]

58 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Okay, I get it’s maddening. But it’s maddening to me that a) people like me in positions to do something about it feel that way as you describe above, and b) in a lot of these videos, Kenosha definitely included, people like most posters on this board excuse the pre-shot behavior. I feel I’m in a middle of two smart factions just yelling past each other, and I get tired and go home and jerk off. 

Instead of going home, next time start jerking off while you’re standing in the middle of them. I promise you they’ll stop yelling at each other....

Edited August 26, 2020 by Ignatius

[dcar00 14036]

2 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I think the idea is to, essentially, decriminalize petty crime for black folks. Shoplifting a cigarello, passing off a fake twenty, simple assault/fighting, weed, etc. because that is a better alternative, for the next 12 months while you get some time to fix this thing, then keeping the judgment in the hands of the cops who can't seem to stop themselves from shooting black people. Add to that, that any shooting of a black man for the foreseeable future, however justified or honest, will be viewed as murder because of all the noise of the dishonest/murder we've seen this year.

There is just no value or positive gain for cops having lethal weapons right now (or maybe ever again? I don't know) because even if 1% of all shootings is a bad shooting, the visibility and the wattage is like the sun the right now on any police shooting.

 

We'll see.

I think your list of things not to arrest people for is too short.  maybe homicide would be the only one.  everything else you can recover from and there is insurance to cover any burglary.  I'd also stop going to any domestic violence calls.  Let people in their own homes work it out.

[dcar00 14036]

3 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I haven't followed this thread since early afternoon, so I'm sure we've all come to the agreement that while nobody is clearly in the "right" here, the people who are most in the wrong have been the ones that shot the other humans to death.  Good chat guys.

see ya in 2 weeks, Italy!

[Rougarou 594]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I haven't followed this thread since early afternoon, so I'm sure we've all come to the agreement that while nobody is clearly in the "right" here, the people who are most in the wrong have been the ones that shot the other humans to death.  Good chat guys.

That about does her. Wraps her all up. Things seemed to have worked out pretty good for this thread. And it was a pretty good story, don't ya think? Made me laugh to beat the band. Parts of it, anyway.

[Brisketexan 104628]

5 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

that'll be interesting.  maybe we could just go no laws, no need for police, protect yourself however you see fit and see what happens.  certainly first step is don't try to arrest anyone.  maybe we have cops driving around as a general visible deterrent but not allowed to get out of their cars.  they can roll down windows and talk or get on loudspeakers like Elwood.

I mean, sure, that's how a toddler having a tantrum would handle it.  "If I can't do it my way... I won't do it AT ALL!  You'll be all on your own, and you'll miss me -- you'll see!"

Or, alternative: cops could stop being fucking dicks.  I mean, I know that's CRAZINESS, but why don't we give THAT a shot first, and then, if that doesn't work, we try your "we just won't do our job at all" plan - sound fair?

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

I think the idea is to, essentially, decriminalize petty crime for black folks. Shoplifting a cigarello, passing off a fake twenty, simple assault/fighting, weed, etc. because that is a better alternative, for the next 12 months while you get some time to fix this thing, then keeping the judgment in the hands of the cops who can't seem to stop themselves from shooting black people. Add to that, that any shooting of a black man for the foreseeable, however justified or honest, will be viewed as murder because of all the noise of the dishonest/murder we've seen this year. And even if 1% of all shootings is a bad shooting, the visibility and the wattage is like the sun the right now on any police shooting. 

We'll see.

You're getting somewhere.  We should do that for ALL folks.  First, because it just creates the opportunity for violent encounters, over and over and over.  And, it is DESIGNED to do so -- simple, petty crimes are the sort of thing where cops have discretion to look the other way (come on, we all remember a cop letting us pour out our beer instead of him cuffing us or writing a ticket).  But when it comes to minorities in particular, they DON'T look the other way:

Quote

Over the entire year, cops issued 90 percent of illegal walking tickets citywide to blacks and Hispanics, mirroring Streetsblog’s findings for the first three-quarters of 2019 — an investigation that led to strong denunciations of the NYPD from a wide range of political officials.

The final numbers for 2019 reveal:

Total tickets issued for illegal or unsafe crossing: 397

Tickets issued to blacks and Hispanics (where race is indicated on the summons): 354 (89.8 percent).

To people aged 25 and under: 213 (53.6 percent)

Blacks and Hispanics comprise about 55 percent of the population. 

For more "serious" petty crime -- say, passing a fake bill, having a joint, etc. -- it should be a citation only offense.  Write a ticket and move on (if you indeed need to do anything.  Seriously, does it improve anything for you to arrest, or even write a ticket, to a dude hanging out at the park with a joint in his pocket?)

We have criminalized way too many things.  We over-enforce those laws against minorities (again, they were designed to do so: do some reading on the Black Codes, and how they were used to create an imprisoned class of free labor (substitute for slaves!  What a deal!), and how they continued as a way to make sure black people were disqualified from voting, competing for good jobs, etc.).  We need to stop doing that.  Like, today.

And, when a cop shoots someone, treat him like we'd treat anyone else (particularly a black man) who just shot someone -- he is promptly taken into custody, evidence is gathered and statements are taken immediately, and if probably cause exists for an arrest (not a conviction, but simply ARREST), arrest him and charge him.  Like you would do with any black guy who shot someone in the back 7 times, just to come up with a crazy example.

There are a shitload of things we can do right now to effect real change.  But we won't.  Because (and you've heard this from me before, because it's true), THIS IS HOW WE WANT IT TO BE.

[Texas_Rocks 346]

Damn! Those videos show a multitude of bad decisions rated from 1 to 10.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

5 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

You think maybe police are more afraid of young black males for a reason that might be rational and based on interactions they have routinely?

What was the justification here

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

What was the justification here

"See, what you gotta understand is, the niggra just can't seem to figure out his place."

Nothing really ever changes.  We dress it up a bit.  We use more polite language.  But the dynamic remains the same.

[Fondren & Main 6670]

1 hour ago, Longhorn94 said:

What we need is a group of fine law abiding black gun activists to show up with their AR15s and protect the protestors. Let's see if they are treated the same way as the white gun activists are treated by the POlice. and yeah, I used to be the police union attorney for both Dallas and Travis County chapters of the FOP. 

No cop with a pistol is taking on a citizen armed with a rifle.

[wildcat09 29260]

What I find really funny is that the back the blue types have so much less respect for police than I do. At the end of the day, I think they should be and can be better at their jobs. Their “supporters” seem to think they’re not capable of being anything but rabid animals. 

[dcar00 14036]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, sure, that's how a toddler having a tantrum would handle it.  "If I can't do it my way... I won't do it AT ALL!  You'll be all on your own, and you'll miss me -- you'll see!"

Or, alternative: cops could stop being fucking dicks.  I mean, I know that's CRAZINESS, but why don't we give THAT a shot first, and then, if that doesn't work, we try your "we just won't do our job at all" plan - sound fair?

I don't think hey dude, stop being a fucking dick(Spicoli voice) is going to work.  you have already said as much, we need to go much further.  we need to stop all cop killing. take their guns and tell them to quit bothering with people who don't want to be arrested.  let them go if they don't give up. no chokeholds, no guns.  maybe we can teach them to lasso, though?

by doing this, we can then get rid of people with arrest warrants because people won't be getting arrested.  DWI should be just call a friend or get them an uber.   I really think the answer is just to let agitated/stubborn people go and go find them when they are not agitated.  it won't be super efficient but at least no one will get killed by police.  jails will free up and we won't need to have the discussion about privatized jails.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by dcar00

[Brisketexan 104628]

4 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

you have already said as much, we need to go much further.  we need to stop all cop killing. take their guns and tell them to quit bothering with people who don't want to be arrested.  let them go if they don't give up. no chokeholds, no guns.  maybe we can teach them to lasso, though?

Cool....I said that?  Where?

I know that your infantile temper-tantrum approach is perfectly in line with what PDs throughout the country are actually doing, but dude....that doesn't exactly give you credibility on the point.

It does, however, illustrate why black America doesn't have much hope in any meaningful reform.  Any call for it is met with not just resistance, but scorn and temper tantrums.

[Dahobbs 17449]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

And about 15 unarmed black men are shot and killed by police each year.  Granted, it's 15 too many.

It is fascinating to me that you think the problem is limited to the killing of unarmed black men as opposed to most readily revealed through that statistic. It is the quintessential tip of the iceberg: readily apparent and hiding many times more bad shit underneath it. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Dahobbs

[dcar00 14036]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool....I said that?  Where?

I know that your infantile temper-tantrum approach is perfectly in line with what PDs throughout the country are actually doing, but dude....that doesn't exactly give you credibility on the point.

It does, however, illustrate why black America doesn't have much hope in any meaningful reform.  Any call for it is met with not just resistance, but scorn and temper tantrums.

you are the one that said the gun in the room is the problem.  I'm saying take away their gun and quit confronting people.  you of course in your pea brained "Brisket for Mayor" mind take that as temper tantrum.  I'm agreeing with you. quit fucking trying to arrest people(and in particular black people) and don't give these meatheads a gun.  

[Brisketexan 104628]

8 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

you are the one that said the gun in the room is the problem.  I'm saying take away their gun and quit confronting people.

Yes....I said that in all cases?  Where?  I mean, when the bad guy has a gun to the head of a hostage, I don't think I ever said the police shouldn't be armed in their response (as just one example).  I know you think you're being clever here, but you're just engaging in one of the more basic logical fallacies.

 

8 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

quit fucking trying to arrest people(and in particular black people) and don't give these meatheads a gun.  

Again....I said that the police shouldn't arrest anyone, ever.....where?  These aren't even clever logical fallacies.  Just lazy ones.  

I mean, I guess that's what we should come to accept from American PDs and their apologists -- clever, creative thinking ain't their forte -- but still, disappointing.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Texaspython 231]

Hope the Rittenhouse kid never leaves prison. Better, I hope he doesn’t ever leave his cell.

[Buzzrock 14871]

personally I think cops should stop trying to arrest people that are resisting.  just let them go.  they do it in Northern California all the time now.

I’d like to read more about that if you have more details.

[Gourmand 7774]

19 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

you of course in your pea brained "Brisket for Mayor" mind

 

[VABuckeye 2472]

27 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

It is fascinating to me that you think the problem is limited to the killing of unarmed black men as opposed to most readily revealed through that statistic. It is the quintessential tip of the iceberg: readily apparent and hiding many times more bad shit underneath it. 

I don't think the problem is limited to that but that's what the focus seems to be on.

[CORN 89]

Kenosha's very own Sweet Corn Fest, held every August Jerry Smith Produce and Pumpkin Farm (7150 18th St.), would like you to know that they are here to support you during this difficult time.

When things return to normal, they'll welcome you back for great activities like unlimited hayrides, camel rides, face painting, a petting zoo, and the kid-favorite tractor tire mountain will be there waiting for you! (Not to mention the famous roasted corn!)

[leaf 681]

3 hours ago, Juicy said:

at 1:04 of this video you see the guy he shot. He is two inches smaller than the petite girl who walks in front of him.

Being chased 1 on 1 by this dude made the guy fear for his life? 

Juicy,  I am not defending the shoot with this statement.

Don't get hung up on the size of someone.  I've seen guys that are 1 foot taller and weighs at least 75 pounds more get knocked out by a smaller guy.

[Dbeasy 14970]

Learn to ignore people, people. Entire western society would take a step up if we could just stop ourselves from being outraged by the same fucking people over and over again
Do people not pay attention to posters names or history at all? Or just not care? 

Exactly! In a time period in our history with an incredible amount of immoral, unethical, illegal and disgraceful behavior the best course of action is to ignore it all and refuse to hold anyone accountable for their behavior. That is a winning strategy! It worked great for a long time for Nazi Germany, Civil Rights, Slavery, Organized Crime... All these protestors have it all wrong. And a chat board is no place to express an opinion on someone’s behavior. That has no place on surly! Glad we could clear that up (Eye roll).

[ryskey 447]

7 minutes ago, CORN said:

Kenosha's very own Sweet Corn Fest, held every August Jerry Smith Produce and Pumpkin Farm (7150 18th St.), would like you to know that they are here to support you during this difficult time.

When things return to normal, they'll welcome you back for great activities like unlimited hayrides, camel rides, face painting, a petting zoo, and the kid-favorite tractor tire mountain will be there waiting for you! (Not to mention the famous roasted corn!)

When you say "corn," does it rhyme with "born" or does it rhyme with "yarn"????

[atomheartbevo 89450]

1 hour ago, Texas_Rocks said:

Damn! Those videos show a multitude of bad decisions rated from 1 to 10.

25 minutes ago, Texaspython said:

Hope the Rittenhouse kid never leaves prison. Better, I hope he doesn’t ever leave his cell.

He should have never left Illinois.  That was his first bad decision.    Leaving Illinois with a rifle and intending to go to Wisconsin to participate in a riot and thinking that things would work out fine was beyond stupid, even for a teenager.

His parents buying him a rifle is their last bad decision.  First bad decision being not to wrap it up when the old man was banging his mom.