Hard Stops, Grammar [stet], and Cursive - Communication

[washparkhorn 9,973]

I learned today the use of the full-stop [.] at the end of a sentence may confuse younger generations. (no offense intended and with all due respect those who do not understand why a thoughtful writer who uses a period [.] to mark the end of a thought.            

Seriously - i understand why it may be confusing to those unaccustomed to the use of a full-stop period.  Human communication continues to evolve - as it has always has . . . That is non-controversial. 

The is not about grammar or spelling nazis. 

Written communication today has been streamlined to incorporate: 1. Plain Speech (Simple English), and 2. concepts (for example, meme. information utilizing all senses to trigger connection/relatability).

Written communication has become more efficient in capturing audiences. As audiences are simplified to concepts rather that individual humans - are we snuffing out human ingenuity? If so, what are the consequences?

Ideas? Resources? Personal thoughts?

 

[Kennythetiger 9,626]

I like the jugs football thread a lot better. 

[workswithseed 2,204]

I actually never heard of stet before you.

[bschoolprof 6,342]

i don't understand why anyone would find a period confusing it's needed to break up thoughts and make reading easier also, I am a fan of jugs big, small, whatever, I like them

[Mole 4,339]

This post confuses me, but it isn’t the punctuation. Of course the open parenthesis causes my brain to hiccup a little bit, but that’s the least confusing part.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Mole

[washparkhorn 9,973]

59 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

i don't understand why anyone would find a period confusing it's needed to break up thoughts and make reading easier also, I am a fan of jugs big, small, whatever, I like them

The period signals passive aggressiveness to certain readers. Kinda of a drop the mic. Or a "talk to the hand because the faces doesn't want to listen" expression. 

As for jugs, . . . 

[washparkhorn 9,973]

But if you are buying . . . 

[washparkhorn 9,973]

49 minutes ago, Mole said:

Of course the open parenthesis causes my brain to hiccup a little bit, but that’s the least confusing part.

[stet]

[washparkhorn 9,973]

1 hour ago, Kennythetiger said:

I like the jugs football thread a lot better. 

Revolutionary training equipment. 

[formermav43 4,630]

What generation is this? I get that they might not use standard punctuation in their personal communications, but presumably they learned to read with books. With periods. 

[washparkhorn 9,973]

Z was the context as provided to me. Social media. Not certain why formal writing has not immunized the response to periods. May be a red herring or overreaction by those disturbed by revelation.

 

[Spaulding Smails 1,610]

8 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

I learned today the use of the full-stop [.] at the end of a sentence may confuse younger generations. (no offense intended and with all due respect those who do not understand why a thoughtful writer who uses a period [.] to mark the end of a thought.            

Seriously - i understand why it may be confusing to those unaccustomed to the use of a full-stop period.  Human communication continues to evolve - as it has always has . . . That is non-controversial. 

The is not about grammar or spelling nazis. 

Written communication today has been streamlined to incorporate: 1. Plain Speech (Simple English), and 2. concepts (for example, meme. information utilizing all senses to trigger connection/relatability).

Written communication has become more efficient in capturing audiences. As audiences are simplified to concepts rather that individual humans - are we snuffing out human ingenuity? If so, what are the consequences?

Ideas? Resources? Personal thoughts?

 

While not an English major, I've always tried to communicate correctly, even in text messages.  I'll write full sentences and avoid short hand notation.  For example, it irks me when someone writes "TY" instead of "Thank You".  And, I absolutely cringe when I see grammatical errors in published news articles.

That being said, I actually heard a pretty compelling argument a few weeks ago on a Podcast about the evolution of communication and language.  The comparison was made between letters home from rank and file soldiers during the Civil War and soldiers stationed overseas today.  Those Civil War letters were verbose and descriptive and full of emotion.  Why?  Because letters to a wife or mother were sent home once a month, and there was no other way to convey those thoughts and visualizations.  And, they had ample downtime in the evenings with minimal other distractions.  They took their time and ensured that what was on paper gave a deep and detailed perspective. 

Compare that to a soldier communicating home with a loved one today.  It can be a FaceTime call every evening, maybe a few texts during the day.  The wife or mother on the other end can see facial expressions.  Pictures and videos are sent.  Quick texts provide updates.  

So, the argument was made that it's acceptable and natural to get away from formalities in written communication.  The intent behind communication is to effectively convey information.  If that's being accomplished by a picture, an emoji or shorthand, then it's actually progress in the evolution of communication.  Shortly after hearing that Podcast, one of my managers sent me a text that we were awarded a job we'd bid on several months ago.  I replied with a "happy dance" GIF.  In a sense, that GIF communicated more effectively my sentiments about that achievement more appropriately than any written word could have done.  It's interesting to take a step back and try to understand how rapidly that evolution of communication is unfolding.

[Pancho 46,309]

It’s the evolution that @Spaulding Smails is talking about.  It’s become mor acceptable to be less formal in writing. If one teacher/professor allows it, they assume all of us/them do.  I sure as fuck do not. 

The problem is, when I grade a college student’s written work and see nothing but semi-colons when there should be commas or periods, it gets them major points deducted because errors like that shouldn’t be happening at this level. 

 

[Blotto 24,020]

7 minutes ago, Pancho said:

It’s the evolution that @Spaulding Smails is talking about.  It’s become mor acceptable to be less formal in writing. If one teacher/professor allows it, they assume all of us/them do.  I sure as fuck do not. 

The problem is, when I grade a college student’s written work and see nothing but semi-colons when there should be commas or periods, it gets them major points deducted because errors like that shouldn’t be happening at this level. 

 

tell me mor

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

Wait.  I am confused by "stet."  That is a very old school proofreader's mark to "undo" an earlier correction.  Means "stand as set."  As in, you line through something for deletion, then change your mind, you mark it "stet."

My Dad was responsible for the annual and quarterly reports for a Fortune 500 company, so four times a year, he spend a couple or three 24 hour days at the printer, including the era of lead type.  In those days, you actually used those proofing marks as they were commonly understood.  And he used them in all proofing, including of my papers and writing that I submitted to him for review.  So I picked up on them too, much to the confusion of people who asked me to look at their work and secretaries, when that was a thing.

While it is probably a good thing that we are able today to introduce images and other communication devices into written communication to increase meaning and comprehension, it is probably not good that we are losing the ability to communicate by written word alone.

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

15 minutes ago, Pancho said:

It’s the evolution that @Spaulding Smails is talking about.  It’s become mor acceptable to be less formal in writing. If one teacher/professor allows it, they assume all of us/them do.  I sure as fuck do not. 

The problem is, when I grade a college student’s written work and see nothing but semi-colons when there should be commas or periods, it gets them major points deducted because errors like that shouldn’t be happening at this level. 

 

Interdasting.  Historically, the semicolon is one of the most underused punctuations.  It can be a great way to avoid a run-on sentence.  But yeah, I can see it being overused.

Kudos to you for being a stickler.  There's an argument that a history paper isn't an English paper, so it shouldn't be graded harshly on grammar and punctuation.  I disagree; maybe it should not be graded "harshly," but it should be graded for obvious errors, at least.

As indicated in my previous post, my Dad was a gifted writer, both in terms of "art" and of formality and proper usage, and a stickler about it.  He passed that on to me, at least the stickler part, and I am nowhere as good as he was.

[El Diablo 4,232]

The digital communications age has certainly changed a lot of things, many for the better. Communications are abbreviated and can convey more information in a compact form. Physical, printed materials though provide a tactile advantage that lends itself to being curated in its original form. All those pics on your iPhone? Probably not going to be passed down to the grandkids. The original copies of important documents can be preserved for future generations whereas that big tweet from that one guy probably will be forgotten quickly and misquoted when it is remembered. 

I'm good with the new way, it has its place and time. 

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Wait.  I am confused by "stet."  That is a very old school proofreader's mark to "undo" an earlier correction.  Means "stand as set."  As in, you line through something for deletion, then change your mind, you mark it "stet."

My Dad was responsible for the annual and quarterly reports for a Fortune 500 company, so four times a year, he spend a couple or three 24 hour days at the printer, including the era of lead type.  In those days, you actually used those proofing marks as they were commonly understood.  And he used them in all proofing, including of my papers and writing that I submitted to him for review.  So I picked up on them too, much to the confusion of people who asked me to look at their work and secretaries, when that was a thing.

While it is probably a good thing that we are able today to introduce images and other communication devices into written communication to increase meaning and comprehension, it is probably not good that we are losing the ability to communicate by written word alone.

Also, it occurs to me that new communication modes are a symptom or cause, probably more a symptom, of social media posts being one of the dominant forms of mass communication.  

And that is unfortunate, because I believe (and I think there's evidence to support the notion), that the internet and social media have contributed to the destruction of the attention span so that reading and analysis of "long form," in-depth writing has suffered.  It has certainly affected politics.

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

 “It's a beautiful thing, the Destruction of words.”

- Winston Smith

[Anastasis 23,718]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And that is unfortunate, because I believe (and I think there's evidence to support the notion), that the internet and social media have contributed to the destruction of the attention span so that reading and analysis of "long form," in-depth writing has suffered.  It has certainly affected politics.

Double sentence spacing.  Would not bang. 

[Guest]

I was very fortunate to have nuns for teachers in grades 1-6.   Those fundamentals were drilled into our heads so that it was second nature.  The advent of texting and honestly, boards like this where I don't always go real high on the "givafukometer," have eroded some of that discipline.  However, when I write something at work; I don't even have to sign the sumbeech and people still know who wrote it.  I shake my head, because it's not like I'm remotely close to being some Billy Shakespeare or some shit.  It should not stand out like that, but it does.  

I also credit my mom for refusing to spoonfeed my vocabulary when I was young.  I loved to read and write, but I would get stumped on a word and ask her for the spelling or definition. 

"Look it up in the dictionary"

"If I can't spell it, how do I look it up?"

"You'll find it, if you just open the (motherfucking) book!"

It always drove me nuts, but inevitably, I'd see some other words while looking up what I wanted.  This may seem kind of fucked up in these days of Google, but the dictionary and 2 sets of encyclopedias from 1958 and 1964 WERE my Google back then.  I would have broken Google as a kid.  LOL.

 I lived in one of these when writing:

 

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Double sentence spacing.  Would not bang. 

You mean two spaces after a period?  Yes, guilty as charged.  Am an old.

It also appears that you are a practitioner of that dark art.  WNB.

Edited August 29, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

I was very fortunate to have nuns for teachers in grades 1-6.   Those fundamentals were drilled into our heads so that it was second nature.  The advent of texting and honestly, boards like this where I don't always go real high on the "givafukometer," have eroded some of that discipline.  However, when I write something at work; I don't even have to sign the sumbeech and people still know who wrote it.  I shake my head, because it's not like I'm remotely close to being some Billy Shakespeare or some shit.  It should not stand out like that, but it does.  

I also credit my mom for refusing to spoonfeed my vocabulary when I was young.  I loved to read and write, but I would get stumped on a word and ask her for the spelling or definition. 

"Look it up in the dictionary"

"If I can't spell it, how do I look it up?"

"You'll find it, if you just open the (motherfucking) book!"

It always drove me nuts, but inevitably, I'd see some other words while looking up what I wanted.  This may seem kind of fucked up in these days of Google, but the dictionary and 2 sets of encyclopedias from 1958 and 1964 WERE my Google back then.  I would have broken Google as a kid.  LOL.

 I lived in one of these when writing:

 

My parents were the same way.  My Dad even encouraged me to just read the dictionary:  open it up, look at the words on the two pages, learn something.  I have lazed my way out of that.

However, I am a convert to ebooks for the most part.  And the dictionary function, being so easy, permits me to look up words when I realize that my definition for them is contextual or otherwise not exactly based on the actual meaning of the word.  So that's kind of cool.

[Armybrat 41,406]

8 hours ago, formermav43 said:

What generation is this? I get that they might not use standard punctuation in their personal communications, but presumably they learned to read with books. With periods. 

Maybe the youngsters are reluctant to use periods because they conflate them with red wings.

[Armybrat 41,406]

57 minutes ago, Pancho said:

It’s the evolution that @Spaulding Smails is talking about.  It’s become mor acceptable to be less formal in writing. If one teacher/professor allows it, they assume all of us/them do.  I sure as fuck do not. 

The problem is, when I grade a college student’s written work and see nothing but semi-colons when there should be commas or periods, it gets them major points deducted because errors like that shouldn’t be happening at this level. 

 

Heheh.... 

I’d earn a perennial “F” in your class.

[elfenix 34,749]

42 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

So I picked up on them too, much to the confusion of people who asked me to look at their work and secretaries, when that was a thing.

i picked up old-school editing marks in law school.  i've been using them for 15+ years now and i still confuse the people i work with. 

[Pato del Muerto 53,502]

Just because we have cars doesn’t mean we should forget how to walk.

i still double space after a period. Not because it’s the easy thing to do, but because it’s the right thing to do. 

[Anastasis 23,718]

4 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

i still double space after a period. Not because it’s the easy thing to do, but because it’s the right thing to do

Wrong. 

[Red Five 41,738]

I work with a woman who uses no punctuation at all in communications it's really annoying and distracting she has big tits though so she gets a pass still though it's bizarre she's late 20s it all sounds like this. 

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

Liar!

 

[ztejas 44,227]

Can you work on your own horrible fucking grammar before you start a thread on it?

Ah I see, that was the point of the post. 

0/10 would not read again.

Edited August 29, 2020 by ztejas

[CHIEF 5,228]

My mother was a newspaper editor, back when that was still a thing. Everything but texts gets spelled correctly with correct punctuation. I'm not really OCD about it, but I think it matters that your posts and communication shows that you are somewhat educated and pay attention to detail. 

CHIEF

[Pato del Muerto 53,502]

1 hour ago, Doc Reeves said:

Liar!

 

Hmm is that an autocorrect function now?

[TexArcher 39,072]

11 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

The period signals passive aggressiveness to certain readers.

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

6 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

.

Welp, I’m triggered

[bernorange 8,385]

10 hours ago, formermav43 said:

... presumably they learned to read with books. With periods. 

More likely just twitter

[Pancho 46,309]

I’m an APA man.  APA 7th edition just came out and they say it’s now only 1 space after a period. 

Every paper I’ve ever written has always been 2 spaces (6th edition) and I will likely die on that hill. 

[Tailgate 3,076]

This thread brought back some memories.

Anyone else graduate in the college of communication when you had to take and pass the GSP (grammar, spelling and punctuation) test in order to take upper-division classes?

Damn thing kicked my ass and I ended up reading this from cover to cover in order to pass it.

Always keep a copy near my desk.

[Pato del Muerto 53,502]

I edit/proofread to the Chicago manual. 

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

Dad kept multiple style manuals on his bookshelf, even at home.

His favorite was the WSJ.  His background was originally journalism.

[TwiceHorn 32,079]

2 hours ago, Pancho said:

I’m an APA man.  APA 7th edition just came out and they say it’s now only 1 space after a period. 

Every paper I’ve ever written has always been 2 spaces (6th edition) and I will likely die on that hill. 

First time I saw the second space criticized was a book on typography for word processing.  It said the two spaces was a relic of fixed-spacing typewriter fonts and that proportionally spaced word-processor fonts eliminated any need or justification for it.  Oddly enough, the same book advocated adjusting the kerning to increase the spacing on proportional fonts and also advocated avoiding the use of straight-up single spacing in favor of at least 1.15.  Moar white space, it said.

I can't stop typing two, though.  My word processor is supposed to be set up to fix it.  I don't care enough to check whether it actually does.

Edited August 29, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[RDCanecutter 26,890]

The period, as is fitting for a microaggression, is small.

[BottleRocket 659]

[El Diablo 4,232]

5 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

The period, as is fitting for a microaggression, is small.

My sister missed one after her junior year in high school. There was nothing micro about the events that followed. 

[Anastasis 23,718]

6 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Hmm is that an autocorrect function now?

It should be. 

[Upgrayedd 5,892]

Team double space after periods.

Team Oxford comma.

[Anastasis 23,718]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

First time I saw the second space criticized was a book on typography for word processing.  It said the two spaces was a relic of fixed-spacing typewriter fonts and that proportionally spaced word-processor fonts eliminated any need or justification for it.  Oddly enough, the same book advocated adjusting the kerning to increase the spacing on proportional fonts and also advocated avoiding the use of straight-up single spacing in favor of at least 1.15.  Moar white space, it said.

I can't stop typing two, though.  My word processor is supposed to be set up to fix it.  I don't care enough to check whether it actually does.

You read a book on typography for word processing?

Jesus you are in to some kinky shit man. 

[Anastasis 23,718]

1 minute ago, Upgrayedd said:

Team double space after periods.

Team Oxford comma.

Oxford comma ride or die. 

Double sentence spacing just reflects an unwillingness to adapt to the modern world. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

6 hours ago, Pancho said:

I’m an APA man.  APA 7th edition just came out and they say it’s now only 1 space after a period. 

Every paper I’ve ever written has always been 2 spaces (6th edition) and I will likely die on that hill. 

I had zero idea this was even a thing. I thought two spaces was appropriate. I too will likely die a two space guy- like a relic of a different time. Yelling at the kids to “get off my lawn”. 

[Bevo&Pevo 5,518]

So what would Shakespeare think?