"Simple" house extension - avoid contractor?

[phdhorn 6224]

So my wife's and my coke and heroin/sex trafficking businesses are going really well, so we have a little extra jack for an empty-nester re-do of the crib.  One thing we want to do is to put about 20 feet or so onto our house.  Right now it's shaped like an "L" and we'd like to add a little ell on it to make a "U" as it were.  This would essentially join the house at only 2 areas - our master b.r. and the adjoining bath - essentially we want to make them about 20 feet larger (possibly squeeze another bedroom into this but not a big deal).  Mostly we want more master bed and especially bath space (larger shower more closet room, etc.).  

My question is, is it worth paying a middleman (general contractor) or negotiating my own stuff?  The upside is that it wouldn't require a ton of expertise (maybe) and I've already had experience seeing it happen (once when we built the original and 10 years later when we actually put on the first "ell").  I believe I can handle negotiating 1) excavation, 2) slab pouring, 3) rough framing and roofing, 4) extend electric, and 5) extend plumbing.  The "good" thing is that the basic plumbing is there, we would just have the plumber extend the pipes a few feet - plus we're essentially replumbing the entire house within 2 years anyway, so this won't be any extra big deal.

The question is also restated as, do I save enough $ avoiding a general contractor to matter, or am I asking for trouble.  On the surface it seems like a simpler job - no installing toilets or any "in slab" pipes, and almost everything else is merely an add-on of what's there.  If it's not too much of a savings, I'll leave the hassle to him.  I don't love getting on the phone with all of these guys but the seemingly small scope of the project seems like it'll be doable without much hassle (sure!).

Anyone ever tried to put on an extension with you running the show?  

[TwiceHorn 31684]

20 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

So my wife's and my coke and heroin/sex trafficking businesses are going really well, so we have a little extra jack for an empty-nester re-do of the crib.  One thing we want to do is to put about 20 feet or so onto our house.  Right now it's shaped like an "L" and we'd like to add a little ell on it to make a "U" as it were.  This would essentially join the house at only 2 areas - our master b.r. and the adjoining bath - essentially we want to make them about 20 feet larger (possibly squeeze another bedroom into this but not a big deal).  Mostly we want more master bed and especially bath space (larger shower more closet room, etc.).  

My question is, is it worth paying a middleman (general contractor) or negotiating my own stuff?  The upside is that it wouldn't require a ton of expertise (maybe) and I've already had experience seeing it happen (once when we built the original and 10 years later when we actually put on the first "ell").  I believe I can handle negotiating 1) excavation, 2) slab pouring, 3) rough framing and roofing, 4) extend electric, and 5) extend plumbing.  The "good" thing is that the basic plumbing is there, we would just have the plumber extend the pipes a few feet - plus we're essentially replumbing the entire house within 2 years anyway, so this won't be any extra big deal.

The question is also restated as, do I save enough $ avoiding a general contractor to matter, or am I asking for trouble.  On the surface it seems like a simpler job - no installing toilets or any "in slab" pipes, and almost everything else is merely an add-on of what's there.  If it's not too much of a savings, I'll leave the hassle to him.  I don't love getting on the phone with all of these guys but the seemingly small scope of the project seems like it'll be doable without much hassle (sure!).

Anyone ever tried to put on an extension with you running the show?  

Without questioning your bona fides, Texas law pushes residential construction contractors to a "cost plus" model.  The plus used to be 10-15%, but YMMV with pandemic, modern housing economics, etc.

I am going to guess that 10-15% is worth every penny from a hassle standpoint as well as having better access to more quality and reliable subs.

[deadshank 24653]

We do cost  plus contracts all the time.

Get an architect to design, engineer to do his thing,  get your HOA architectural review comittee to review and approve your plans.

Architect will specify basic materials and allowances.  

Have architect give you 3 builder / re-modeler names and have them bid the same plans /specs / allowances schedule.

Dirt work, slab, framing/cornice, roof,  insulation, drywall, rough electrical and rough plumbing and framing lumber should all be in the same neighborhood cost-wise.

The big question mark is your allowances for refined finishes such as plumbing and light fixtures,  countertops / back splashes, appliances, flooring, etc.  Your architect should give your reasonable per square foot dollar amounts to get your budget to include modern finishes to YOUR approximate tastes; however, nobody can put an accurate dollar amount on the cost of your personal tastes until your pick what you want.

With the cost plus contract your builder is obligated to show you every invoice so you know you're not getting chingalayed into overpaying by not seeing EVERY invoice.  Of course, you can always come in under budget on allowances and put the difference  to upgrade another item  or just stay under budget.

You an also use the invoices to calculate the sales tax paid and use that for your personal tax return.  With fixed price contracts that is a difficult to do becuase you never see the acutal invoices and the builder is not obligated to produce them for you.

When can I submit a draw?

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by deadshank
Plus you have no idea what you're doing and have a paying gig you need to tend.

[deadshank 24653]

Also, you may have a chance to defray some of the hard cash layout by allowing your builder and subs barter with your wife's business.

Edited September 3, 2020 by deadshank

[ROFL BOX 6649]

If you can get the right crews, properly vet the sub labor & get good work out of them, keep the trains running on time & organized as to who does what & when...

Sure.

The stories from people who think they can properly manage all of that are definitely humor inducing, that's for sure.

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[phdhorn 6224]

15 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

If you can get the right crews, properly vet the sub labor & get good work out of them, keep the trains running on time & organized as to who does what & when...
Sure.
The stories from people who think they can properly manage all of that are definitely humor inducing, that's for sure.

I'm not too intimidated by the organization problem, but yeah I'd rather give it to a general.  But my biggest concern is that they would blow it up to some huge thing, and I actually believe this is relatively small scale - yeah, even pouring another slab section, etc.  Anyway, advice taken.

21 minutes ago, deadshank said:

We do cost  plus contracts all the time.

Get an architect to design, engineer to do his thing,  get your HOA architectural review comittee to review and approve your plans.

Architect will specify basic materials and allowances.  

Have architect give you 3 builder / re-modeler names and have them bid the same plans /specs / allowances schedule.

Dirt work, slab, framing/cornice, roof,  insulation, drywall, rough electrical and rough plumbing and framing lumber should all be in the same neighborhood cost-wise.

The big question mark is your allowances for refined finishes such as plumbing and light fixtures,  countertops / back splashes, appliances, flooring, etc.  Your architect should give your reasonable per square foot dollar amounts to get your budget to include modern finishes to YOUR approximate tastes; however, nobody can put an accurate dollar amount on the cost of your personal tastes until your pick what you want.

With the cost plus contract your builder is obligated to show you every invoice so you know you're not getting chingalayed into overpaying by not seeing EVERY invoice.  Of course, you can always come in under budget on allowances and put the difference  to upgrade another item  or just stay under budget.

You an also use the invoices to calculate the sales tax paid and use that for your personal tax return.  With fixed price contracts that is a difficult to do becuase you never see the acutal invoices and the builder is not obligated to produce them for you.

When can I submit a draw?

LOL, well not just yet, we just started tossing around the idea yesterday (kind of surprisingly we were both thinking the same thing separately).

Your response is interesting largely because of one thing - we have had terrible experiences with architects.  I mean, awful.  We eventually pretty much bypassed one when first building the house - our general contractor talked about a few plans he built custom and we got a few, whittled them down, and went to him with the structural changes.  Came out pretty well.  When we put the (first and current) addition on, we went through AIA and man we got a bunch of weirdo loonies who wanted to make some type of Frank Lloyd Wright shit (it's just an extension ) - we got Japanese sochi villas, underground bunker shit, and even a guy who wanted to make our house intoa  big boat (think of the admiral's crib in Mary Poppins - complete with tower and all!  I mean holy shit, really?  Now most of these people submitted their plans gratis and we simply shook our heads and laughed.  The guy we settled with cost us almost a cool grand before we decided he was going the opposite way of what we were thinking.  I think our experience was that many of these people think so in the clouds that it's hard to get them to settle on something that seems reasonable - and we saw like 4-5 people, not just one.  The wasted time and money dumping was awful. In the end we simply dismissed the guy because he got weirder and weirder - and this is all AIA certified stuff.  Sure you can blame it on the customer - "you guys must have communicated terribly" - but that's just it... we wanted an architect precisely because we needed ideas.  But we didn't need that shit; none of these people helped us, they submitted some things then said, well I don't know if I can do this or that.  Great, thanks..   We eventually settled with a contractor who had his own onboard jack of all trades - including design - and this guy did a great job.  He wasn't a full-blown architect, but man he was down to earth and we got a great design from him. 

The rest of your post is pretty "yeah, I know that" (but thanks for it anyway).  We're very familiar with allowances and stuff like that, and know how to lay out the $ for them.  So I can accept that a good architect knows good subs - but we can also get that with neighbors, we have about 3 builders within rock throwing distance of my house as it is.  

So in this case I'd be more inclined to just get a good contractor who can help with a "simple" extension to the house.  But if I for example can get a good framing sub, a lot of these guys do so many situations they can also give pointers to electric and other stuff.  For sure the biggest problems will be excavation (we're on solid limestone 1,100 feet in the hills) and slab pouring (trucks have to get to the opposite side of our structure, which could pose a problem), and framing.  But after that I think it's not hard to manage.  Perhaps I can get a general to supervise these first 3 items, and I can take the rest.  I don't know.

But I appreciate all the comments!  Trust me, I don't want to do the general contracting, but a big part of us doing the project is to get someone who can get things done without a lot of hoopla (it's "just" an extension) and economically (match materials, etc. with original structure).

Thanks for the "cost plus" advice, that helps, too.

We'd start on this probably in about a year, so we have a little time.  Thanks so far for the help!

[deadshank 24653]

Getting the correct architect is key.  I don’t know what market you are in.  We are fortunate that we have several good architects in Houston that don’t get their egos or dreams in the way of drawing and specifying a simple addition.   
 

I’m sure a decent contractor knows a few that can reign it in for your needs.   
 

I hope it works out for you.  
 

Now, about your wife’s business....

[ROFL BOX 6649]

.  slab pouring (trucks have to get to the opposite side of our structure, which could pose a problem),

Do you even concrete pumper, bro?

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[Incredulity 11687]

Quote

We eventually settled with a contractor who had his own onboard jack of all trades - including design - and this guy did a great job.  He wasn't a full-blown architect, but man he was down to earth and we got a great design from him. 
 

Is this guy still around?

If not look for a design-build remodeling outfit. which sounds like what you ended up with on project 1. 

 

It's a different task than new construction.  They should have subs that are more competent at matching existing finishes.  It's not rocket surgery but, matching siding to something existing is not the same as banging out Hardieplank day in and day out.

 

 

[Dbeasy 15231]

Hi hoping someone can help me. I’m looking for someone who can design a Japanese Sochi villa with an underground bunker, BUT that can also be towed to the lake and used as a house boat. Thanks.

[Sam Lin 3564]

On 9/3/2020 at 10:35 PM, deadshank said:

Get an architect to design, engineer to do his thing,  get your HOA architectural review comittee to review and approve your plans.

Architect will specify basic materials and allowances.  

Have architect give you 3 builder / re-modeler names and have them bid the same plans /specs / allowances schedule.

Dirt work, slab, framing/cornice, roof,  insulation, drywall, rough electrical and rough plumbing and framing lumber should all be in the same neighborhood cost-wise.

TL:DR, what are the process steps to build an additional house on current property, and how to execute those steps?

 

Searching old posts, bumping up this old thread. Just starting to contemplate building a big workshop/guest house on existing land next to existing house. Timeframe is next few years, not anything urgent. This is in AZ. Have a general question regarding the process steps I should follow.

Who do I talk to first? Architects? How to find good ones? I browsed some architect sites and saw they list some accolades they've gotten, some listed Houzz "best of" - so I browse Houzz, I find architects in the area that are voted "best of" each year that have done projects I like. Is this an ok way to find architects? I also see in another post above where you mention having a contractor recommend one - how do I find the contractors to ask?

Once I get a list of architects, how do I go about vetting them?

Then I talk to them about what I want, they draw up some models and plans. Does their scope include interior design and engineer? Or do I need to also find those later?

I take the plan package they give me, and I shop it to some builders. I assume they will have some builders they have worked with and recommend. Where else do I search for builders? And again, how do I vet the builders?

 

[TexasEd 8145]

2 hours ago, Sam Lin said:

TL:DR, what are the process steps to build an additional house on current property, and how to execute those steps?

 

Searching old posts, bumping up this old thread. Just starting to contemplate building a big workshop/guest house on existing land next to existing house. Timeframe is next few years, not anything urgent. This is in AZ. Have a general question regarding the process steps I should follow.

Who do I talk to first? Architects? How to find good ones? I browsed some architect sites and saw they list some accolades they've gotten, some listed Houzz "best of" - so I browse Houzz, I find architects in the area that are voted "best of" each year that have done projects I like. Is this an ok way to find architects? I also see in another post above where you mention having a contractor recommend one - how do I find the contractors to ask?

Once I get a list of architects, how do I go about vetting them?

Then I talk to them about what I want, they draw up some models and plans. Does their scope include interior design and engineer? Or do I need to also find those later?

I take the plan package they give me, and I shop it to some builders. I assume they will have some builders they have worked with and recommend. Where else do I search for builders? And again, how do I vet the builders?

 

First thing to look into is zoning, covenants and deed restrictions.  Do you have impermeable cover restrictions, restrictions against multi-family dwellings, number of bathrooms per sq foot, etc.?  Are you on municipal water/sewer or well/septic?

Then you need to figure out if you can do what you want without violating those restrictions.  If it says you can’t have multi family but nothing against a detached garage then you write it up as a detached garage with workshop above it.  There may be many obstacles and you need to assess what they are so you can plan your way through them.

When Fonzie moves in above your garage tell him “heyyyyy”

[Sam Lin 3564]

Thank you! A bit of this homework was done back when I first bought the property, with thoughts towards building just a large garage/workshop at that time. The change now is to consider adding living space:

The limiter for size will be the "cannot occupy more than 30% of rear yard area," and leaves plenty of space. Total plot is .75acre. No HOA, and zoning is "horse property" which allows 40% coverage.

Would be adding this as "Guest Quarters" which has the "no built in cooking facilities stove/oven" restriction (see bottom of right hand column of chart below). Is this something as simple to get around as just leaving a dummy cabinet there and yanking it out and dropping in a freestanding range after the inspection is done?

Property is supplied by city water but septic sewer. Increasing septic is a potential large issue if it'll occupy a bunch of land for leach field, or add cost if need to add pits. I don't know where the current leach runs, which is a problem.

Other known obstacle is that they only allow one accessory building per property, and it already has a freestanding garage. The thought is to connect the existing house and garage to make it "one" building. Unclear yet how they define it, whether shares a connected roof or needs enclosed walkway or what. If that's not really feasible, then I'd demolish the existing freestanding garage.

When I bought the place I already upped the power main to whatever the largest the city would allow, and ran a conduit for future "shop" subpanel across the house, to prepare for eventual workshop build.

 

Quote

zoned SF-33. For an accessory building in the SF-33 zoning, the following are the minimum building setbacks.
Front - 20 feet
Rear - 40 feet
Sides - 15 feet on each side
Maximum lot coverage 40%

 

 

Here's an aerial view of the property and concept. The new building is intended to be a huge garage/workshop. Just adding 1500sf of guest house in it.

[TexasEd 8145]

What if you connected the new structure to the garage. Would that meet your no more than one outbuilding requirement?

 

I think you need an architect 

[TexasEd 8145]

Oh and you may want to look into how insurance would hit the various options.