Home Audio System for Streaming from Phone

[LosIllini 91]

Fwiw- Multi-zone even w/ newer multichannel receivers is quirky.  And, different manufacturers implement it different ways.

I have a decent Yamaha AV receiver that's a few years old, which does have a nice s/w app that you can use to control most settings from your phone/ ipad.  i'm running two zones- main zone in living room w/ a 3.1 speaker setup, and second zone- outside w/ two speakers.

Yamaha will let you run digital sources on one zone, but, not two zones at the same time (unless you want to listen to the same source, they call that 'party mode').  So, I can't have an hdmi source (sat box) running on zone one, and roku (hdmi) running on zone two streaming music.  I have read that you can get a cheap hdmi=>analog converter, which should allow more flexibility on the digital components you want hook up.

However, the Yamaha does have a bunch of apps built-in- XM, Pandora, net radio, AirPlay, etc. that you can run simultaneously in the second zone, independent of zone 1.  So, for my setup, I can have football game on TV inside, and XM Radio going outside (through the built-in app on the receiver).  Have never tried running anything on zones 3 and 4--- but, assume, you get into issues on how many amps you're using on zones 1 and 2, and may have to add external amps.

[ZB'Tejas 593]

4 minutes ago, LosIllini said:

Fwiw- Multi-zone even w/ newer multichannel receivers is quirky.  And, different manufacturers implement it different ways.

I have a decent Yamaha AV receiver that's a few years old, which does have a nice s/w app that you can use to control most settings from your phone/ ipad.  i'm running two zones- main zone in living room w/ a 3.1 speaker setup, and second zone- outside w/ two speakers.

Yamaha will let you run digital sources on one zone, but, not two zones at the same time (unless you want to listen to the same source, they call that 'party mode').  So, I can't have an hdmi source (sat box) running on zone one, and roku (hdmi) running on zone two streaming music.  I have read that you can get a cheap hdmi=>analog converter, which should allow more flexibility on the digital components you want hook up.

However, the Yamaha does have a bunch of apps built-in- XM, Pandora, net radio, AirPlay, etc. that you can run simultaneously in the second zone, independent of zone 1.  So, for my setup, I can have football game on TV inside, and XM Radio going outside (through the built-in app on the receiver).  Have never tried running anything on zones 3 and 4--- but, assume, you get into issues on how many amps you're using on zones 1 and 2, and may have to add external amps.

Thanks. That's been my issue thus far... outputting to Zone 2 and 3 can be from and input source that is Analog or Digital (optical) but not HDMI which is currently how my Chromecast doing this. Receiver has XM but not Pandora so unless I take the Chromecast and convert the HDMI to Analog to input I might not have the option for how I plan on using. Would converting to Analog lose any quality? Also I'm guessing if I do that I might also lose the digital output that goes to the TV to show the content that's playing on the zone as well.

This is almost why I might just throw it all out and go Sonos...

[LosIllini 91]

I may be misunderstanding, but, if you're wanting to see the chromecast output (album/ song titles) on your tv, couldn't run the chromecast through zone 1, and mirror the audio output to zones 2 and 3 (assuming your receiver has a 'party mode' similar to the yamaha)?  I think the digital limitation on most receivers comes into play when you're trying to use multiple digital inputs.  In this case, it would only be your chromecast. 

Not sure about the analog sound quality, but, it's probably pretty decent.  And, converters are cheap.  We used to run cd and dvd players over rca cables back in the day...

[TXSG8R 3362]

If you're trying to push more than 2 zones of stereo you are moving into distributed audio amp territory.  You can nug something together with an AVR and standalone amps probably, but that's what DA amps are built for, so why try to duplicate the wheel?  

The monoprice 10761 is about as cheap as you can get for a multizone, multisource (6/6) digital DA amp with control pads.  It has become the go-to for the DIY crowd, and someone even built a mobile app to control it (requires additional hardware to convert the serial input to ethernet).  

There are analog solutions as well, but those get tricky because of impedance and power issues.  

For anyone wanting a set of stereo wireless speakers with great SQ, I'd advise looking at KEF's LSX or LS50.    They have standard audio inputs as well, so you can push TV audio on top of all the streaming and casting options.  I have access to dealer pricing on the LSX and most of their floor line if anyone wants a deal.  

[TXSG8R 3362]

Most low-end AVRs don't allow downmixing of audio.  You can generally push 2ch PCM from a digital source to a second zone, you just cant push 5ch+ into those additional zones.  Party mode on Yamahas converts the primary zone audio into 2ch PCM, which is what allows it to push the main zone into additional zones regardless of the input type.  Denons are similar, without the benefit of that party mode conversion into 2ch PCM.  If the audio into the main zone is 2ch PCM and you set the second zone to Source as the input, it will push that audio in zone 2.  

Internal streaming on AVRs can push to zone 2 while the main zone pushes a digital source.  That's the best way to run a surround and zone 2 setup.  Primary zone streams audio from an input (roku, chromecast, whatever) and zone 2 pushes the internal streamer (Heos or musiccast).  That way you can run two different audio sources without having to nug with having to lose the main zone surround.  If you want to sync the music across the main zone and zone 2, you just set the main zone to the internal streamer as well.  

Higher end AVRs will downmix audio, which allows surround in the main zone and stereo in the secondary zone.  They are usually double or more in price of the low-end AVRs though, and again, if you want to push more than 2 zones, a true DA solution is probably the better way to go.  

There are audio extractors that will peel out audio from an HDMI signal and downmix it to 2ch PCM.  The problem with that is audio delay between a display and a zone.  A display has to process an HDMI signal into whatever it puts on the screen, and its usually slower than an AVR.  Its the same problem as using the 2ch output on a cable or DTV box into the AVR or DA as a source for zone 2.  The audio will be ahead of the display's audio that was processed slower, resulting in an echo effect if the speakers are in or near the same space.  You're better off using an audio balun pulling audio from the display into the AVR or DA system so the audio is in sync.  

Edited December 7, 2020 by TXSG8R

[troph 24781]

So currently I run my digital music almost exclusively through my phone/Spotify - to a variety of sources and when I want to geek out I connect to an appleTV via Airplay then an optical outlet to a Cambridge amp with its own built in DAC then out to a pair of Quad towers (thank you @jimmyjazz for helping with the original set up, still owe you bigly).  It works, the interface is fine. The sound is good. But I’m curious what folks think about the streaming components out there - like the Cambridge CXN. It has its own app and bypasses the iPhone to AppleTV through the optical line to the amp.  I’ve been curious for the last few years every time I flip though the Audio Advisor mag that torments me in the mail. Fuckers are expensivo. Wonder what y’all think. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by troph

[dcbc 14465]

22 hours ago, troph said:

So currently I run my digital music almost exclusively through my phone/Spotify - to a variety of sources and when I want to geek out I connect to an appleTV via Airplay then an optical outlet to a Cambridge amp with its own built in DAC then out to a pair of Quad towers (thank you @jimmyjazz for helping with the original set up, still owe you bigly).  It works, the interface is fine. The sound is good. But I’m curious what folks think about the streaming components out there - like the Cambridge CXN. It has its own app and bypasses the iPhone to AppleTV through the optical line to the amp.  I’ve been curious for the last few years every time I flip though the Audio Advisor mag that torments me in the mail. Fuckers are expensivo. Wonder what y’all think. 

I think the source material can be limiting when we (myself included) try to rig up something for streaming.  If I've got a home theater type setup, a roku, apple tv, firetv, etc. is fine for streaming from a compressed source, whether run by opitcal, coax, or hdmi.  What you have sounds fine, good wires into excellent speakers would be where I'd want to put my money.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

22 hours ago, troph said:

So currently I run my digital music almost exclusively through my phone/Spotify - to a variety of sources and when I want to geek out I connect to an appleTV via Airplay then an optical outlet to a Cambridge amp with its own built in DAC then out to a pair of Quad towers (thank you @jimmyjazz for helping with the original set up, still owe you bigly).  It works, the interface is fine. The sound is good. But I’m curious what folks think about the streaming components out there - like the Cambridge CXN. It has its own app and bypasses the iPhone to AppleTV through the optical line to the amp.  I’ve been curious for the last few years every time I flip though the Audio Advisor mag that torments me in the mail. Fuckers are expensivo. Wonder what y’all think. 

Technically speaking, passing a digital signal around is no big deal, unlike an analog signal.  With an analog signal, it's important that all of your components be designed to preserve the fidelity of the original signal as it passes, say, from a turntable cartridge, to a phono stage, to a preamp/amp, to speakers.

With digital, it's just passing packets of digital data around, which iphones and tvs and cable boxes and all that shit do just fine, even if they aren't "hifi."  However, once that signal hits the DAC and passes onward to your speakers, it's analog and all of the cautions about good hifi equipment apply.  So, by and large, bypassing all those pre-DAC things is not a big deal.  "Streaming" receivers and amplifiers just attempt to make things more convenient by giving you lots of avenues by which to connect digital sources (streaming, pc, phone, mp3 player, network storage, etc.) to the hifi quality DAC.

If your DAC is high-quality (as a Cambridge would be), and the downstream amplification circuitry is high-quality along with the speakers, you aren't missing anything.

Theoretically, if you are dealing with high-fidelity digital sources, shortening the signal path may avoid some little bit of data loss, but the beauty of the DAC is that it can fill in gaps in slightly fucked up digital data and make it sound like CD-quality audio.  Which is why a good DAC is important when listening to crummy sources like mp3 or mp3-quality streams.  Those sources deliberately omit data to reduce file size and streaming bandwidth.

Edited December 20, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[troph 24781]

That’s kind of what I thought but wasn’t sure - pre-DAC not such a big deal, after-DAC a big deal. But the way I get digital to the built in DAC always seemed janky to me and these streamer components look slick as heck but it seems like it’s a gross overspend.  I do need to compare the DAC in each component - my amp and this streamer - they are the same brand and the same brand DAC too in each but specs of the DAC even if the same manufacturer might be different.  Speakers are solid.  Pair of Quad 22Ls in great condition still. I don’t remember the brand for the wires to the speakers - bought them years ago - but they are banana plugs, keep good contact, don’t know the gauge either. I should probably take a look there - they are quite long and I don’t have the speakers running across the room anymore.  I have no complaints - just trying to spend (or not spend) on a temptation I’ve had for a few years. 
 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by troph

[TwiceHorn 31440]

7 minutes ago, troph said:

That’s kind of what I thought but wasn’t sure - pre-DAC not such a big deal, after-DAC a big deal. But the way I get digital to the built in DAC always seemed janky to me and these streamer components look slick as heck but it seems like it’s a gross overspend.  I do need to compare the DAC in each component - my amp and this streamer - they are the same brand and the same brand DAC too in each but specs of the DAC even if the same manufacturer might be different.  Speakers are solid.  Pair of Quad 22Ls in great condition still. I don’t remember the brand for the wires to the speakers - bought them years ago - but they are banana plugs, keep good contact, don’t know the gauge either. I should probably take a look there - they are quite long and I don’t have the speakers running across the room anymore.  I have no complaints - just trying to spend (or not spend) on a temptation I’ve had for a few years. 
 

 

Yeah, I run everything thru TV and optical-in on my 15 year old receiver.  It's a lashup, but it gets the job done, and it has a good DAC.

An ethernet connection to one of those streaming/digital cable amps would probably eliminate the occasional internet glitch I get.

I will end up there, eventually, I suppose, once my receiver gives me fits.

[troph 24781]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, I run everything thru TV and optical-in on my 15 year old receiver.  It's a lashup, but it gets the job done, and it has a good DAC.

An ethernet connection to one of those streaming/digital cable amps would probably eliminate the occasional internet glitch I get.

I will end up there, eventually, I suppose, once my receiver gives me fits.

The other thing is I now have exactly three pieces to my stack. Turntable, amp and power supply regulator/surge protector.  That’s it.  4 if you count the appleTV - hahaha. I miss having the stack, no CD, DVD or receiver.  It’s pretty boring, I want more shiny metal things with buttons and lights. I have a CD player but I ended up letting go of all my CDs it just didn’t seem worth keeping them all - probs a big mistake. Especially when I lost my digital library of ripped music but heck I don’t buy much music anymore anyway. This streamer I’m eyeing looks Uber cool. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by troph

[ChickenSandwich 9829]

On 12/3/2020 at 10:54 AM, ZB'Tejas said:

To piggyback on some of the earlier discussions I have a nice receiver that wired to the inside installed speakers (center and L/R) and that works great for TV or music. I need to create 2 more zones (front year and back yard) and the receiver is capable of that however it does not have multiple DACs to support the type of music I would want playing there. I've only seen higher end receivers with two DACs so upgrading that would not solve.

I'm looking Sonance speakers for outside with the Sonos amp but that would not tie in with existing inside sound so at that point I might as well get rid of receiver and go all Sonos for ease of use. I normally cast music from Google Home to my receiver so with Sonos I would not have to add the other step of turning on my receiver. Is there an easier(cheaper) option here to add new zones?

Replace AVR with a Denon or Marantz with HEOS, which is simply a rebranded sonos system built in. The speakers 1,3,5 are exactly the same. This allows you to simply add a speaker to any room. The phone app has all of your streaming services and allows independent volume and source control. 
 

For existing speaker you add the HEOS amp (just like sonos amp) for each zone instead of a standalone speaker. The added benefit is those front and back yard speakers can also play any input plugged into your tv. So if watching the game, all speakers can play the same source with own volume controls etc. 

it gives you the best of both worlds. You aren’t stuck with a crappy home theater sound/speakers just to get easy whole home audio. You can add up to 32 speakers (zones) and each can independently play the source of your choice including from home media storage devices as well. 
 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by ChickenSandwich

[Johnny Chimpo 478]

On 11/27/2020 at 8:52 PM, squib said:

Anyone seeing a good black friday deal on a 2.0 system, self-powered (no separate amp). Just want two speakers with good sound to listen to music. No home theater. Must be able to connect to Bluetooth. 

KEF Wireless LS50. Read the reviews. I love mine. 

[ZB'Tejas 593]

7 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Replace AVR with a Denon or Marantz with HEOS, which is simply a rebranded sonos system built in. The speakers 1,3,5 are exactly the same. This allows you to simply add a speaker to any room. The phone app has all of your streaming services and allows independent volume and source control. 
 

I've heard that HEOS can help solve this and I suppose a new receiver would allow the Pandora signal to be converted internally for other zone outputs. Versus right now where my Chromecast is going to the receiver via HDMI to to back this signal up I need to get a HDMI splitter and use RCA connections. Splitter is $30 while a new receiver is $1200+ so I'm also trying to manage that. What if longer term I want either a TV or projector in the back yard? How could that be wired in to allow that sound to be played in the speakers? With Sonos you can just direct the source to them but if I'm wired to the AVR I suppose I would need to tie into that somehow?

Talking with Magnolia the other day the guy was talking about the Savant system to tie together all the components including home automation. Sounded interesting.

[ChickenSandwich 9829]

Savant is expensive!!  

The HEOS one speaker has a 3.5 aux Jack and blue tooth capability for possible solution to your outdoor pectin needs

The system will allow each speaker to play their own content.  Meaning you can be watching the horns in the living room, have Pandora going on the deck and Pandora running in the master all playing different content at this nice  your app/phone work as a remote and the speaker uses your wifi (like sonos) to independently stream any of your music providers or mimic what’s playing on the receiver  

And nothing is “wired” to the AVR. It works through your wifi to stream. The AVR is basically only providing the remote functions through the app. Has nothing to do with the actual play back 

[ChickenSandwich 9829]

Here are a couple of screen shots from the app. You can combine all rooms together or control separate. Volume, playback etc. 

 

[ZB'Tejas 593]

There will likely come a time when I need to upgrade my AVS but for now I’m going with the more simple option of extracting the audio from HDMI and Input for zone 2 as Analog. (Receiver says it will accept digital via optical but I could not get that working)

This means I can either run 2 other zones in Mono or just 1 in stereo but I think that should be good for this year. Then the savings on a new head unit can be used toward good outdoor speakers and the install.

It does accomplish playing different or same inputs at different volumes which was key.

Instead of getting the ease of control via Heos I think I might just get a Harmony remote system that I can control from my phone. Having the ability to turn on various components for what I want to do and also get connected to Google home sounds like a solid solution.

For anyone with the Harmony system have you connected to a Main unit like Denon? What I’m looking at is whether it will be able to control the source and volume for the various Zones. For instance can I ask to play “backyard speakers” and it could turn on zone 2 with the correct source?


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