Would you take this deal- non progressives only

[Brisketexan 104,608]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

So, at what point do I get sent to prison in your world?  My last note for a GOP president was 2004 for W. I voted for Cruz three times in 2012 and again for pres in 2016, but not in 2018 after he cow towed to trump. I didn’t vote in 2018. Probably won’t vote in 2020. If I do it won’t be for Biden or trump. Do I have to go to prison with regs fraught ticker GOP. Others or can I get off with some time in the stockades instead. Or is my punishment worse for some reason?  

I don't think there's any "prison" or stupid-ass consequences for people who voted for Trump.

However,  elected officials who committed crimes, collaborated with foreign powers to influence American elections, and used the office to illegally enrich themselves and their cronies?  Bury them under the jail.  I've ALWAYS believed in that.  The funny thing is, had I posted that exact sentence 10 years ago, you'd have thought I was a hardcore Republican.  Now, those are literally the OPPOSITE of GOP values, in practice (what makes it that much more delicious is that they SAY all of those things with fervor....all while violating them right in front of your face.  It's like they are punching you in the face telling you "we oppose violence!"....and 40% of America says "yep, you can't argue with that!"....through their bleeding lips).

IT doesn't matter what the GOP used to be (or what you thought they were back then).  It matters what they are now.  And what they are now...is a criminal enterprise that doesn't give a fuck about the law, openly opposes the concept of one man, one vote, and is siphoning off as many American tax dollars into their own pockets as fast as they can.  That, we can and must hold accountable.  That you and yours continue to support them doing that?  Well, that just makes you useful idiots.  The world is full of 'em.

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Everyone single GOP person in congress should go to prison, imho. They have all violated their oath to the consitution and put themselves and party power over the country  Voters should only be shamed unless they engaged in illegal conduct. 

Roger that. Win the election and immediately put the entire opposition party in jail. That’s one way to do it I suppose. Awful conciliatory if you to settle for just shaming the other voters. Do Green Party and libertarian voters need to be shamed too?  How about people that don’t vote at all?  

[Brisketexan 104,608]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Those three states that had previously elected those very Dem senators, and where those Senators were running ahead of their opponents prior to the confirmation hearings. 

Missouri, Indiana, and ND had gone full Trumpkin since their last election, and you know it.  The cause wasn't Kananaugh.  The cause was the decision to join the cult.  Indiana -- Pence's home state.  Missouri -- I mean, fucking Missouri, it speaks for itself.  And ND has gone all-in on Trump -- not a shock, damned near the whitest state in the union.

I no longer favor any compromise or quarter -- the GOP doesn't.  Zero bipartisanship.  Their openly stated goal under Obama was to prevent him from doing ANYTHING.  Fine.  Have it that way.  No compromise.  No quarter.  Turn up Deguello, play it loud.

[Brisketexan 104,608]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Roger that. Win the election and immediately put the entire opposition party in jail. That’s one way to do it I suppose. Awful conciliatory if you to settle for just shaming the other voters. Do Green Party and libertarian voters need to be shamed too?  How about people that don’t vote at all?  

What I love is the fucking lunacy of arguing, after 12 years of zero bipartisanship, zero compromise, and openly undermining everything the opposition party and president might try to do, that the rational response to that is compromise and bipartisanship.  No.  Fuck them.  No fucking way.  You made the rules.  Winning and control are all that matters.  THEY MADE THE RULES.  Now fucking live by them.

[orangecat92 306]

This doesn’t answer the question, but I think the chances of the people giving the democrats all three, house senate, and president, are pretty low, maybe about 2 of 10.  If this happens, media is happy, court packing begins, but after the excitement, and Dow Jones goes seriously bear, job losses increase, how does media convince everybody things are great? 

[Dahobbs 17,447]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Roger that. Win the election and immediately put the entire opposition party in jail. That’s one way to do it I suppose. Awful conciliatory if you to settle for just shaming the other voters. Do Green Party and libertarian voters need to be shamed too?  How about people that don’t vote at all?  

They committed crimes. They shouldn't go to jail because they are the opposition. They should go to jail because they, as our representatives, they must be held to the law. You don't get extra leeway because you were an elected official. If anything, the law should hold you to a higher standard.

And, yes, everyone who makes stupid choices should be shamed and should be encouraged to learn from their mistakes. Voting for the current GOP is one of two things: (1) an act of malice against your fellow citizens or (2) a product of ignorance and stupidity. I have no qualms shaming someone who engaged in that behavior. Why do you?

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Missouri, Indiana, and ND had gone full Trumpkin since their last election, and you know it.  The cause wasn't Kananaugh.  The cause was the decision to join the cult.  Indiana -- Pence's home state.  Missouri -- I mean, fucking Missouri, it speaks for itself.  And ND has gone all-in on Trump -- not a shock, damned near the whitest state in the union.

I no longer favor any compromise or quarter -- the GOP doesn't.  Zero bipartisanship.  Their openly stated goal under Obama was to prevent him from doing ANYTHING.  Fine.  Have it that way.  No compromise.  No quarter.  Turn up Deguello, play it loud.

Again counselor- you are ignoring the fact that they were polling ahead of their opponents prior to the hearings. They were winning those seats until the hearings. 
yes- they were tough sledding in those states, but the hearings didn’t help them. 

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

They committed crimes. They shouldn't go to jail because they are the opposition. They should go to jail because they, as our representatives, they must be held to the law. You don't get extra leeway because you were an elected official. If anything, the law should hold you to a higher standard.

And, yes, everyone who makes stupid choices should be shamed and should be encouraged to learn from their mistakes. Voting for the current GOP is one of two things: (1) an act of malice against your fellow citizens or (2) a product of ignorance and stupidity. I have no qualms shaming someone who engaged in that behavior. Why do you?

You literally said ever gop congressman should go to jail. That’s absurd. If they committed a crime send them away. But having an R next to your name doesn’t make you part of a Rico conspiracy. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Brisketexan 104,608]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Again counselor- you are ignoring the fact that they were polling ahead of their opponents prior to the hearings. They were winning those seats until the hearings. 
yes- they were tough sledding in those states, but the hearings didn’t help them. 

I don't give a fuck.  We are a hopelessly divided country.  We can't win all the states.  Some of them have chosen to give themselves over to the cult of Trumpism.  So be it.  Give me one fucking sane, logical reason to compromise and take a bipartisan approach with the GOP? 

If you reward shitty conduct, you get more of it.  The GOP has made their platform "no quarter, no compromise, fuck you."  I propose a simple, and elegant solution: hold them to it.  

I used to believe that compromise and bipartisanship were important.  They WERE.  But when one party decides that it will never, ever participate in such a regime in good faith, so be it.  The die is cast.  You cannot argue that there is ANY chance that the GOP will govern in good faith, and will compromise. I mean, you COULD but you'd look even more stupid doing so.  THEY CHOSE THIS.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Dahobbs 17,447]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You literally said ever gop congressman should go to jail. That’s absurd. If they committed a crime send them away. But having an R next to your name doesn’t make you part of a Rico conspiracy. 

I think every single one committed crimes. That is why they should be in jail. At best minimum, every single one has violated their oath of office. Almost all have engaged in other criminal conduct, from profiting at the expense of the people and country they represent, to obstructing justice and fraud. The GOP is nothing more than a criminal conspiracy at this point, and I say that as someone who previously supported it. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Edited September 26, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I think every single one committed crimes. That is why they should be in jail. The GOP is nothing more than a criminal conspiracy at this point, and I say that as someone who previously supported it. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Because it’s absurd. And alienating. And 70% of the country would be horrified by it. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Continental Op 3,934]

52 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

the thing about going to war is you might lose. 
 

Guess what!  We're already in a war that you helped start.  As a Christianist, you were a reliable Republican vote for years and years and you helped this happen.  You don't get to throw up your hands and say "Wait wait!  Can we have Biden as president but with a Senate that can keep anything that I don't want to happen from happening???" now.  Reap the whirlwind.  

[wildcat09 29,243]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Because it’s absurd. And alienating. And 70% of the country would be horrified by it. 

And this is the disconnect. You think your party should be allowed to get away with rampant criminal activity and the destruction of our democracy, then call a truce that lets you keep your ill-gotten gains. We find THAT absurd and horrifying.

[Dahobbs 17,447]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Because it’s absurd. 

Why is it absurd? What does that even mean? It is literally what has happened. Florida has a senator who was a key figure in one the largest healthcare fraud penalties ever and never saw any personal consequences. Look at what we have in Texas with our attorney general, who has managed to escape any consequences for his criminal conduct. 

I think they are all criminals. I think we can prove it in a fair trial. I'm not saying arrest them because they are the opposition. I'm saying arrest them for their crimes against this nation. You don't want to believe it because you've been fooled so thoroughly and have engrained "conservative" notions into your identity. I'm sorry this is hard for you, but I also don't give a damn. You've been had. Deal with it. I did. 

[wildcat09 29,243]

This explains the problem from our perspective:

Wulaw wants us to swerve yet again. We’re fucking done swerving. 

[Brisketexan 104,608]

This explains the problem from our perspective:

Wulaw wants us to swerve yet again. We’re fucking done swerving. 

This. No more.

 

They demanded that it be this way. So now it is.

 

It would be criminally stupid to compromise and cooperate with a party that refuses to do so when they have any power. Enough. Basta.

[wildcat09 29,243]

Another thing. If the Susans Hennessy of the world are radicalizing to this extent, it means Wulaw’s estimation that 70% will be horrified by our refusal to swerve is WAY off. It means we’ve got an enormous numbers advantage over the fascists and that we’re going to fucking win.

[Mole 4,320]

If you’re going to start jailing GOPers because you think they’re criminals (many are), you need an extremely transparent and thoughtful process. You need to educate the country about what happened and move with some level of deliberation. 
 

You need buy-in from an overwhelming majority of the country, otherwise we’re in a French Revolution cycle of chopping each other’s heads off over and over. 

[Brisketexan 104,608]

If you’re going to start jailing GOPers because you think they’re criminals (many are), you need an extremely transparent and thoughtful process. You need to educate the country about what happened and move with some level of deliberation. 
 
You need buy-in from an overwhelming majority of the country, otherwise we’re in a French Revolution cycle of chopping each other’s heads off over and over. 

Gosh. If only we didn’t have a sitting president calling for the imprisonment of both his predecessor and his current opponent.

Fuck em. Fuck em all. They support this, they are fine with this, so they should get this.

[Dahobbs 17,447]

14 minutes ago, Mole said:

If you’re going to start jailing GOPers because you think they’re criminals (many are), you need an extremely transparent and thoughtful process. You need to educate the country about what happened and move with some level of deliberation. 
 

You need buy-in from an overwhelming majority of the country, otherwise we’re in a French Revolution cycle of chopping each other’s heads off over and over. 

It's called a trial. 

[Mole 4,320]

51 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Gosh. If only we didn’t have a sitting president calling for the imprisonment of both his predecessor and his current opponent.

Fuck em. Fuck em all. They support this, they are fine with this, so they should get this.

The problem isn't what happens to "them." It's what happens after. If the perception is that this was political retribution, that's a bad place to be. It doesn't matter who started it (well, it does, but someone has to end it). Criminals need to be prosecuted, but there needs to be broad national buy-in or everything gets way worse with the backlash.

40 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

It's called a trial. 

Trials are necessarily confusing. On some level, the defense's job is to muddy up the waters. It needs to a coordinated, overly patient effort to educate beyond the trial process. I don't know how to do that in the face of the massive propaganda we are dealing with, but it needs to be addressed.

Otherwise, the grievances that led to Trump -- justified or not -- will only amplify. If he's seen as a political prisoner by a good chunk of the country, we're in a really bad place.

[Dahobbs 17,447]

4 minutes ago, Mole said:

The problem isn't what happens to "them." It's what happens after. If the perception is that this was political retribution, that's a bad place to be. It doesn't matter who started it (well, it does, but someone has to end it). Criminals need to be prosecuted, but there needs to be broad national buy-in or everything gets way worse with the backlash.

Trials are necessarily confusing. On some level, the defense's job is to muddy up the waters. It needs to a coordinated, overly patient effort to educate beyond the trial process. I don't know how to do that in the face of the massive propaganda we are dealing with, but it needs to be addressed.

Otherwise, the grievances that led to Trump -- justified or not -- will only amplify. If he's seen as a political prisoner by a good chunk of the country, we're in a really bad place.

Jury of peers has to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not worried about appearances if that happens. And it should happen. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Dahobbs

[washparkhorn 9,935]

Sidebar - I am amazed the Trump Right still believes "progressives" hate Trump more than moderate "resistance" voters. 

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think y’all are Jacobins

Not this lot (the "non" progressives). 

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

6 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Sidebar - I am amazed the Trump Right still believes "progressives" hate Trump more than moderate "resistance" voters. 

Not this lot (the "non" progressives). 

I meant specifically DaHobbs and Brisket. 

[Brisketexan 104,608]

I meant specifically DaHobbs and Brisket. 

Yeah. Wulaw thinsk the smart play is to negotiate and be conciliatory with the party of zero compromise, zero bipartisanship, and no quarter.

And here’s why: even though the party is utterly shitty, they’ve done some things he really, really likes, so he wants to hold on to those. Sorry, fucker. You ride with an outlaw, you hang with him.

[Dahobbs 17,447]

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I meant specifically DaHobbs and Brisket. 

The people who should hate Trump the most are people whose party he took over. I can't comprehend how you can stand by and defend the people that should have protected the Republic over party. It would have saved the Republican party if it's senators and congressmen had stood up to Trump. They haven't done it once. 

[wildcat09 29,243]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s my point- she wouldn’t be hard to persuade to walk across the aisle on a bunch of different stuff. But she’s not going to vote to pack the court or rubber stamp anything way left that Pelosi does. Unless she just switched parties. In which case she’d have very little actual power. 

This is going back in the thread a bit, this is the clearest indication that Wulaw really doesn’t have a good understanding of the situation. If you think Pelosi is far left or that she’s the one pushing for shit like court packing, you’re completely lost. Within the wide ideological spectrum of the Democratic Party, Pelosi is center-right. She’s fighting harder against the left than against the GOP.

Thinking that she’s a crazy liberal shows just how deeply bought in to GOP propaganda you are, even if you think you’re not a Trumper. It’s also illustrative of why the GOP will eventual lose this war: y’all are incapable of honestly and accurately evaluating any of the players involved. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by wildcat09

[Brisketexan 104,608]

This is going back in the thread a bit, this is the clearest indication that Wulaw really doesn’t have a good understanding of the situation. If you think Pelosi is far left or that she’s the one pushing for shit like court lacking, you’re completely lost. Within the wide ideological spectrum of the Democratic Party, Pelosi is center-right. She’s fighting harder against the left than against the GOP.
Thinking that she’s a crazy liberal shows just how deeply bought in to GOP propaganda you are, even if you think you’re not a Trumper. It’s also illustrative of why the GOP will eventual lose this war: y’all are incapable of honestly and accurately evaluating any of the players involved. 

Also a really strong point. A good example: the Economist has been a center right publication my entire right. It hasn’t changed it’s editorial position in any meaningful way. And, without changing a thing, it became a “libtard rag” in just the past three years.

Here’s a simple hint, wulaw - when literally EVERYONE who doesn’t suck trumps dick is branded as a “libtard”....that means that he and his movement are fucking far right fascists.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think it will. I suspect Biden gets elected and we don’t hear much about Corona nor riots/protests in the streets. I think the media immediately goes into protect midterms 2022 and retain the whitehouse in 2024 and the pressure gets ratcheted down a ton. 
That’s a prediction- I could well be wrong. You might be right. Nothing but time will tell on that. 

As long as there is no police reform and cell phones exist, BLM is going to keep getting bigger and louder.  This started before Trump. 

You seem a little lost on Corona too. Its still the top story in all the real countries with good governance.  Its a big deal. Winter is also likely to be a bitch with it. 

As for the supposed middle right voting for Cruz because they are so terrified of the "left" who want to help poor people or stop police from murdering black people. There is a war going on. If you choose the trump GOP side, then you're not a centrist. You're on the other side of the war.  And wars don't end well for anyone. Why don't you ask the Russians who "won" world War 2?  The only way to prevent war is to gut the current GOP entirely. And you know this. It's why you posted this thread. You know that Mitch carrying on the same bullshit without Trump isn't going to fly. Both he and Cruz and most current Republicans in office carry the stain for life. Run them all out and start voting in republicans with integrity again. 

All the hard work and boot strap effort you put forth to provide a middleman service to other people who provide middleman services will be for nought. The numbers in your bank account are denominated in a fiat currency that requires a functional nation in order to maintain value. 

Another thing you need to understand is that the Democratic party isn't monolithic. They dont vote lockstep. Sadly, you don't have to worry about poor people gaining access to healthcare if the Dems gain the Senate. You don't have to worry about defunded police. You will still get the endless foreign wars you love as a Republican. And you are only going to get court packing because Mitch made it necessary.   I generally like to think of you as someone with ethics, Wulaw, even though I disagree with you on almost everything. If the Dems pulled that shit with SCOTUS, you'd be livid. And if you don't understand why it needs to be rectified, then perhaps I overestimated your ethics. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[washparkhorn 9,935]

8 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

All the hard work and boot strap effort you put forth to provide a middleman service to other people who provide middleman services will be for nought. The numbers in your bank account are denominated in a fiat currency that requires a functional nation in order to maintain value. 

That cannot be stated more strongly. America is on the brink of losing its status as the world's reserve currency. The world sees it happening and pities us americans. Some revel in our failing economic system.

Good read on the world's pity for the United States. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/26/world/i-feel-sorry-americans-baffled-world-watches-us/

Spoiler

 

BANGKOK — Myanmar is a poor country struggling with open ethnic warfare and a coronavirus outbreak that could overload its broken hospitals. That hasn’t stopped its politicians from commiserating with a country they think has lost its way.

“I feel sorry for Americans,” said Myint Oo, a member of Parliament in Myanmar. “But we can’t help the U.S. because we are a very small country.”

The same sentiment prevails in Canada, one of the most developed countries. Two out of three Canadians live within about 60 miles of the U.S. border.

“Personally, it’s like watching the decline of the Roman Empire,” said Mike Bradley, the mayor of Sarnia, an industrial city on the border with Michigan, where locals used to venture for lunch.

Amid the pandemic and in the run-up to the presidential election, much of the world is watching the United States with a mix of shock, chagrin and, most of all, bafflement.

How did a superpower allow itself to be felled by a virus? And after nearly four years during which President Donald Trump has praised authoritarian leaders and obscenely dismissed some other countries as insignificant and crime-ridden, is the United States in danger of exhibiting some of the same traits he has disparaged?

“The USA is a first-world country, but it is acting like a third-world country,” said Aung Thu Nyein, a political analyst in Myanmar.

Adding to the sense of bewilderment, Trump has refused to embrace an indispensable principle of democracy, dodging questions about whether he will commit to a peaceful transition of power after the November election should he lose.

His demurral, combined with his frequent attacks on the balloting process, earned a rebuke from Republicans, including Sen. Mitt Romney of Utah. “Fundamental to democracy is the peaceful transition of power,” Romney wrote on Twitter. “Without that, there is Belarus.”

In Belarus, where tens of thousands of people have faced down police after the widely disputed reelection last month of President Alexander Lukashenko, Trump’s remarks sounded familiar.

“It reminds me of Belarus, when a person cannot admit defeat and looks for any means to prove that he couldn’t lose,” said Kiryl Kalbasnikau, a 29-year-old opposition activist and actor. “This would be a warning sign for any democracy.”

Some others in Europe are confident that U.S. institutions are strong enough to withstand assault.

“I have no doubt in the ability of the constitutional structures of the United States with their system of checks and balances to function,” said Johann Wadephul of Germany, a senior lawmaker from Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives.

Still, that the president of the United States, the very country that shepherded the birth of Germany’s own peaceful democracy after the defeat of the Third Reich, was wavering on the sanctity of the electoral process has been met with disbelief and dismay.

The diminution of the United States’ global image began before the pandemic, as Trump administration officials snubbed international accords and embraced an America First policy. Now, though, its reputation seems to be in free fall.

A Pew Research Center poll of 13 countries found that over the past year, nations including Canada, Japan, Australia and Germany have been viewing the United States in its most negative light in years. In every country surveyed, the vast majority of respondents thought the United States was doing a bad job with the pandemic.

Such global disapproval historically has applied to countries with less open political systems and strongmen in charge. But people from just the kind of developing countries that Trump has mocked say the signs coming from the United States are ominous: a disease unchecked, mass protests over racial and social inequality, and a president who seems unwilling to pledge support for the tenets of electoral democracy.

Mexico, perhaps more than any other country, has been the target of Trump’s ire, with the president using it as a campaign punching bag and vowing to make Mexicans pay for a border wall. Now they are feeling a new emotion that has overtaken their anger and bewilderment at Trumpian insults: sympathy.

“We used to look to the U.S. for democratic governance inspiration,” said Eduardo Bohórquez, director of Transparency International Mexico. “Sadly, this is not the case anymore.

“‘Being great’ is simply not enough,” he added.

In Indonesia, the most populous Muslim-majority democracy, there is a sense that the United States has left the world adrift, even if its application overseas of democratic ideals was imperfect. For decades, Washington supported some of Asia’s most ruthless dictators because they were considered vital to halting communism in the region.

“The world sees the dismantling of social cohesion within American society and the mess in managing COVID,” said Yenny Wahid, an Indonesian politician and activist. “There is a vacuum of leadership that needs to be filled, but America is not fulfilling that leadership role.”

Wahid, whose father was president of Indonesia after the country emerged from decades of strongman rule, said she worried that Trump’s dismissive attitude toward democratic principles could legitimize authoritarians.

“Trump inspired many dictators, many leaders who are interested in dictatorship, to copy his style, and he emboldened them,” she said.

In places like the Philippines, Mexico and others, elected leaders have been compared to Trump when they have turned to divisive rhetoric, disregard of institutions, intolerance of dissent and antipathy toward the media.

But there is also a sense that Americans are now getting a glimpse of the troubles people living in fragile democracies must endure.

“They now know what it’s like in other countries: violating norms, international trade and its own institutions,” said Eunice Rendon, an expert on migration and security and the director of Migrant Agenda, a nonprofit organization in Mexico. “The most powerful country in the world all of a sudden looks vulnerable.”

Already, a U.S. passport, which once allowed easy access to almost every country in the world, is no longer a valuable travel pass. Because of the coronavirus, American tourists are banned from most of Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania and Latin America.

Albania, Brazil and Belarus are among a small group of countries welcoming Americans with no restrictions, however.

The State Department has tried to play up its role in battling the coronavirus overseas, even as the United States struggled to supply its own doctors and nurses with adequate equipment early in the pandemic. In March, the United States provided 10,000 gloves and 5,000 surgical masks, among other medical supplies, to Thailand, which today has recorded fewer than 3,520 coronavirus cases and 59 deaths. Despite the low caseload, most Thais continue to wear face masks in public, and the country never suffered a mask shortage.

“Through the American people’s generosity and the U.S. government’s action, the United States continues to demonstrate global leadership in the face of the COVID-19 pandemic,” a State Department statement said.

In Cambodia, which reports being largely spared by the virus so far, there is a measure of schadenfreude toward the United States. Prime Minister Hun Sen has survived as Asia’s longest-serving leader by cracking down on dissent and cozying up to China. He has turned his back on U.S. aid because it often came with conditions to improve human rights. Now he and his administration are ridiculing the United States and its handling of the pandemic.

“He has many nuclear weapons,” Sok Eysan, a spokesperson for Hun Sen’s Cambodian People’s Party, said of Trump. “But he is careless with a disease that can’t be seen.”

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by washparkhorn

[Brisketexan 104,608]

That cannot be stated more strongly. America is on the brink of losing its status as the world's reserve currency. The world sees it happening and pities us americans. Some revel in our failing economic system.

Good read on the world's pity for the United States. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/26/world/i-feel-sorry-americans-baffled-world-watches-us/

Spoiler

 

BANGKOK — Myanmar is a poor country struggling with open ethnic warfare and a coronavirus outbreak that could overload its broken hospitals. That hasn’t stopped its politicians from commiserating with a country they think has lost its way.

“I feel sorry for Americans,” said Myint Oo, a member of Parliament in Myanmar. “But we can’t help the U.S. because we are a very small country.”

The same sentiment prevails in Canada, one of the most developed countries. Two out of three Canadians live within about 60 miles of the U.S. border.

“Personally, it’s like watching the decline of the Roman Empire,” said Mike Bradley, the mayor of Sarnia, an industrial city on the border with Michigan, where locals used to venture for lunch.

Amid the pandemic and in the run-up to the presidential election, much of the world is watching the United States with a mix of shock, chagrin and, most of all, bafflement.

How did a superpower allow itself to be felled by a virus? And after nearly four years during which President Donald Trump has praised authoritarian leaders and obscenely dismissed some other countries as insignificant and crime-ridden, is the United States in danger of exhibiting some of the same traits he has disparaged?

“The USA is a first-world country, but it is acting like a third-world country,” said Aung Thu Nyein, a political analyst in Myanmar.

Adding to the sense of bewilderment, Trump has refused to embrace an indispensable principle of democracy, dodging questions about whether he will commit to a peaceful transition of power after the November election should he lose.

His demurral, combined with his frequent attacks on the balloting process, earned a rebuke from Republicans, including Sen. Mitt Romney of Utah. “Fundamental to democracy is the peaceful transition of power,” Romney wrote on Twitter. “Without that, there is Belarus.”

In Belarus, where tens of thousands of people have faced down police after the widely disputed reelection last month of President Alexander Lukashenko, Trump’s remarks sounded familiar.

“It reminds me of Belarus, when a person cannot admit defeat and looks for any means to prove that he couldn’t lose,” said Kiryl Kalbasnikau, a 29-year-old opposition activist and actor. “This would be a warning sign for any democracy.”

Some others in Europe are confident that U.S. institutions are strong enough to withstand assault.

“I have no doubt in the ability of the constitutional structures of the United States with their system of checks and balances to function,” said Johann Wadephul of Germany, a senior lawmaker from Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives.

Still, that the president of the United States, the very country that shepherded the birth of Germany’s own peaceful democracy after the defeat of the Third Reich, was wavering on the sanctity of the electoral process has been met with disbelief and dismay.

The diminution of the United States’ global image began before the pandemic, as Trump administration officials snubbed international accords and embraced an America First policy. Now, though, its reputation seems to be in free fall.

A Pew Research Center poll of 13 countries found that over the past year, nations including Canada, Japan, Australia and Germany have been viewing the United States in its most negative light in years. In every country surveyed, the vast majority of respondents thought the United States was doing a bad job with the pandemic.

Such global disapproval historically has applied to countries with less open political systems and strongmen in charge. But people from just the kind of developing countries that Trump has mocked say the signs coming from the United States are ominous: a disease unchecked, mass protests over racial and social inequality, and a president who seems unwilling to pledge support for the tenets of electoral democracy.

Mexico, perhaps more than any other country, has been the target of Trump’s ire, with the president using it as a campaign punching bag and vowing to make Mexicans pay for a border wall. Now they are feeling a new emotion that has overtaken their anger and bewilderment at Trumpian insults: sympathy.

“We used to look to the U.S. for democratic governance inspiration,” said Eduardo Bohórquez, director of Transparency International Mexico. “Sadly, this is not the case anymore.

“‘Being great’ is simply not enough,” he added.

In Indonesia, the most populous Muslim-majority democracy, there is a sense that the United States has left the world adrift, even if its application overseas of democratic ideals was imperfect. For decades, Washington supported some of Asia’s most ruthless dictators because they were considered vital to halting communism in the region.

“The world sees the dismantling of social cohesion within American society and the mess in managing COVID,” said Yenny Wahid, an Indonesian politician and activist. “There is a vacuum of leadership that needs to be filled, but America is not fulfilling that leadership role.”

Wahid, whose father was president of Indonesia after the country emerged from decades of strongman rule, said she worried that Trump’s dismissive attitude toward democratic principles could legitimize authoritarians.

“Trump inspired many dictators, many leaders who are interested in dictatorship, to copy his style, and he emboldened them,” she said.

In places like the Philippines, Mexico and others, elected leaders have been compared to Trump when they have turned to divisive rhetoric, disregard of institutions, intolerance of dissent and antipathy toward the media.

But there is also a sense that Americans are now getting a glimpse of the troubles people living in fragile democracies must endure.

“They now know what it’s like in other countries: violating norms, international trade and its own institutions,” said Eunice Rendon, an expert on migration and security and the director of Migrant Agenda, a nonprofit organization in Mexico. “The most powerful country in the world all of a sudden looks vulnerable.”

Already, a U.S. passport, which once allowed easy access to almost every country in the world, is no longer a valuable travel pass. Because of the coronavirus, American tourists are banned from most of Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania and Latin America.

Albania, Brazil and Belarus are among a small group of countries welcoming Americans with no restrictions, however.

The State Department has tried to play up its role in battling the coronavirus overseas, even as the United States struggled to supply its own doctors and nurses with adequate equipment early in the pandemic. In March, the United States provided 10,000 gloves and 5,000 surgical masks, among other medical supplies, to Thailand, which today has recorded fewer than 3,520 coronavirus cases and 59 deaths. Despite the low caseload, most Thais continue to wear face masks in public, and the country never suffered a mask shortage.

“Through the American people’s generosity and the U.S. government’s action, the United States continues to demonstrate global leadership in the face of the COVID-19 pandemic,” a State Department statement said.

In Cambodia, which reports being largely spared by the virus so far, there is a measure of schadenfreude toward the United States. Prime Minister Hun Sen has survived as Asia’s longest-serving leader by cracking down on dissent and cozying up to China. He has turned his back on U.S. aid because it often came with conditions to improve human rights. Now he and his administration are ridiculing the United States and its handling of the pandemic.

“He has many nuclear weapons,” Sok Eysan, a spokesperson for Hun Sen’s Cambodian People’s Party, said of Trump. “But he is careless with a disease that can’t be seen.”

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, sure...but counterpoint: they own the libs, and really give those Mexican racists and black thugs the what-for.

 

So, clearly, it’s all worth it.

 

And the Dems should DEFINITELY compromise with them in a way that allows them to continue to do all that.

[washparkhorn 9,935]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

but counterpoint: they own the libs

And they lie to themselves . . . 

[washparkhorn 9,935]

[Brisketexan 104,608]

But....did you miss how that totally ownz tha libs? That’s what’s really important.

And we should compromise with them, meaning of course that we should let them continue to do what they’re doing now. It’s the only thing that makes sense!

[Fudge Nuggets 19,151]

9 hours ago, Mole said:

otherwise we’re in a French Revolution cycle of chopping each other’s heads off over and over. 

At this point, I’m more than cool with that.  Guess which side wins.

[formermav43 4,599]

6 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

At this point, I’m more than cool with that.  Guess which side wins.

None

[BradInATX 9,208]

Absolutely. Just the concept that we will serve justice to politicians who break the law is enough for me. I'm far less concerned about the racist moron aspect of Trump than I am what he's doing to the laws of governance. The racist asshole thing will die off with the boomers and as the country diversifies more. The population is going to push our politicians leftward. But establishing that you can't just come in and ignore the laws and the constitution would go a long way to keeping criminals out of the white house.
We'll worry about progressive policies in a few years. it's not a perfect deal but I'd take it.

[Biff Tannen 45,494]

17 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

This explains the problem from our perspective:

Wulaw wants us to swerve yet again. We’re fucking done swerving. 

From the article. This is complete and total bullshit.  
 

It’s one thing to incidentally benefit, as Republicans currently do, from a system of government that each party has long accepted and competed under, with partisan control of the presidency and Congress reliably changing hands. It’s another thing to make radical changes on a partisan basis explicitly to increase your partisan power.

[Goredho 17,348]

The GOP will only reform themselves as a moderate party if an outside force compels them to do so.  That force will be either a huge rebuke across the board over multiple elections by voters, if allowed to express their will at the ballot box, or the forceful expression of their will against the government if they are not.

So any scenario of a moderate Conservative party that does not include the Dems having the White House and dominant position in the Senate and House for some time or the US falling into a second civil war is naively unrealistic.  Anything short of those outcomes makes all the unpleasant side effects of having embraced the worst of our nature worth it for what the GOP has gained.

In short, the GOPs victories they’ve had since breaking hard right must wind up being pyrrhic, or else they are just victories and there’s no compelling reason to change.

[Goredho 17,348]

Also, all the angst over the danger that awaits with liberals in solid control is misplaced. It’s a theoretical problem that does not hold up against the very real problems we are up against now with hard right conservatism holding the reigns of power.  To fall victim to the “evils of socialism”, we would first have to move away from our government’s hard right position, lose the “evils of fascism” and pass “healthy government of moderation and equal representation.”

There’s no way to get to a sweet spot in the middle without moving left.  Once that momentum is established, consider how to stop before the pendulum swings similarly way too fucking far to the other side.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 hours ago, Goredho said:

The GOP will only reform themselves as a moderate party if an outside force compels them to do so.  That force will be either a huge rebuke across the board over multiple elections by voters, if allowed to express their will at the ballot box, or the forceful expression of their will against the government if they are not.

So any scenario of a moderate Conservative party that does not include the Dems having the White House and dominant position in the Senate and House for some time or the US falling into a second civil war is naively unrealistic.  Anything short of those outcomes makes all the unpleasant side effects of having embraced the worst of our nature worth it for what the GOP has gained.

In short, the GOPs victories they’ve had since breaking hard right must wind up being pyrrhic, or else they are just victories and there’s no compelling reason to change.

I think you are also undervaluing the effect long term tyrannical minority rule would have on the majority. If the GOP wins and keeps winning, they will be doing so from a consistent minority position. They can win the Senate and Presidency and still lose by more than 10 million votes. As the GOP has been making a national power play, the left has been swinging urban coastal states further left. If minority rule goes on for long, including the punitive actions Trump likes to take against tax donor "blue" states, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that those same states will start electing state officials who will put secession on the table.  Maybe secession isn't even necessary.  Imagine if all of California quit paying federal income tax.  Logistically, you need state government for either. So far, municipal governments have swung, but state govts are still slowly moving from center left to left. 

[SaucyJack 3,487]

23 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You literally said ever gop congressman should go to jail. That’s absurd. If they committed a crime send them away. But having an R next to your name doesn’t make you part of a Rico conspiracy. 

[swraith 336]

Don’t take the deal. Need to roll the dice for Dems to take the Senate.

If Trump keeps the WH...well Dems can run against him again 2024. Yeah yeah. I know term limits...but he will have 4 years to make it happen.

[gmr548 16,512]

I don't think that reckoning is possible with a center right Senate.

A GOP controlled senate isn't center right. It's far right. A center right Senate is a narrow Democratic majority.

[Buzzrock 14,871]

I’d take it. I generally don’t care who is in the White House but Trump needs to go. I generally favor gridlock in government.

[hornmpa96 2,598]

2 hours ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

A GOP controlled senate isn't center right. It's far right. A center right Senate is a narrow Democratic majority.

 

Exactly - A narrow Democratic majority puts Joe Manchin, Jon Tester and Krysten Sinema in a significant position of power. I really wish I could add Doug Jones to that list as he seems an incredibly decent human being, but Bama is going to be Bama.