Fuck Big 12 refs

[dcar00 14181]

20 minutes ago, CowtownHorn said:

That’s what I found as well. I’d like to go back the past 10 years or so and just do a straight up penalty yardage comparison. These fucks are great at calling illegal motion, false start, or holding on the opponent when the game has already been decided (and not in our favor). Kind of skews the numbers as to not look as bad as it really is. And even if we have less penalties called on us in a particular game you can bet your ass the ones they did call were to bring a scoring play or big play back. Or to extend an opponent’s possession (see roughing the passer to extend OSU’s drive on 3rd and long on Saturday). 

also a difference of 6-13 penalties is pretty big.  that can be 1 to 2 FULL games of penalties,  unless you are dirt burglars..then it is 3 to 5 games.

[Scooter Monzingo 820]

I think some confuse incompetent with conspiracy. I think it is simply as……they suck. High def video just lets us see how bad.

[dcar00 14181]

4 minutes ago, Scooter Monzingo said:

I think some confuse incompetent with conspiracy. I think it is simply as……they suck. High def video just lets us see how bad.

1 season out of 11?  if they sucked wouldn't it be sucking both ways?  and the yardage in close seasons is always more for Texas and not by 5 or 10 yards.

Edited October 20, 2021 by dcar00

[CowtownHorn 5126]

4 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

also a difference of 6-13 penalties is pretty big.  that can be 1 to 2 FULL games of penalties,  unless you are dirt burglars..then it is 3 to 5 games.

Would also like to narrow it down to the judgment penalty calls…pass interference, holding, roughing/personal fouls. Bet the discrepancy between Texas and its opponents would be disgusting. 

[CowtownHorn 5126]

5 minutes ago, Scooter Monzingo said:

I think some confuse incompetent with conspiracy. I think it is simply as……they suck. High def video just lets us see how bad.

[dcar00 14181]

Just now, CowtownHorn said:

Would also like to narrow it down to the judgment penalty calls…pass interference, holding, roughing/personal fouls. Bet the discrepancy between Texas and its opponents would be disgusting. 

definitely on DPI and holding.  I actually hold the coaches somewhat accountable on DPI especially.   you have to teach how to draw DPI.  I can guarantee you Riley and Leach do it.

[dcar00 14181]

its acatually hilarious the one season is 2013 and it is a massive difference.  you think those refs didn't know Mack was about to get fired if he didn't win the conf?

I would like to see 2000 to 2009 for a comparison when Mack was at his peak.

[USNALonghorn 5078]

21 hours ago, Had Enough said:

Thanks for reminding me that we were up 41-23 with 2:21 remaining in Q3…

Edited October 20, 2021 by USNALonghorn

[Had Enough 2081]

Thanks for reminding me that we were up 41-23 with 2:21 remaining in Q3…

I can’t forget it. Why should you?

[Scooter Monzingo 820]

3 hours ago, dcar00 said:

1 season out of 11?  if they sucked wouldn't it be sucking both ways?  and the yardage in close seasons is always more for Texas and not by 5 or 10 yards.

I honestly don’t know the numbers. Though I would be interested to see what the conference in general looks like. 

From my own viewing, I can say shitty officiating isn’t unique to the Big12. The SEC officials are more than capable of fucking up a call. And the PAC is just shit.

[Tommy Shelby 188]

I wish someone would/could compare when the penalties were assessed, like if it negated a long play or were on a 3rd down, or when the score was close/the team was driving (def going to be hardest to be objective with). Situational penalties matter much more than just comparing yards or total amount of penalties. With how frequently fans complain about this I'm shocked that there isn't a more well known source (if there is one at all) to find this type of stat. Especially given the amount of time some people take recording missed penalties or whatever else. 

[Tommy Shelby 188]

1 minute ago, Scooter Monzingo said:

I honestly don’t know the numbers. Though I would be interested to see what the conference in general looks like. 

From my own viewing, I can say shitty officiating isn’t unique to the Big12. The SEC officials are more than capable of fucking up a call. And the PAC is just shit.

Also why are refs restricted to one conference? That just leads to more ways to corrupt them. Given the amount of money CFB generates nowadays it shouldn't be too difficult to fly these guys around the country to be different crews as keeping them with the same one doesn't seem to help them.

[Scooter Monzingo 820]

Just now, Tommy Shelby said:

Also why are refs restricted to one conference? That just leads to more ways to corrupt them. Given the amount of money CFB generates nowadays it shouldn't be too difficult to fly these guys around the country to be different crews as keeping them with the same one doesn't seem to help them.

I would very much be in favor of a standardized group of officials.

Removing the conference affiliation seems like a no brainer when considering the shinanigans that people feel is going on.

[dcar00 14181]

15 minutes ago, Tommy Shelby said:

I wish someone would/could compare when the penalties were assessed, like if it negated a long play or were on a 3rd down, or when the score was close/the team was driving (def going to be hardest to be objective with). Situational penalties matter much more than just comparing yards or total amount of penalties. With how frequently fans complain about this I'm shocked that there isn't a more well known source (if there is one at all) to find this type of stat. Especially given the amount of time some people take recording missed penalties or whatever else. 

agreed on the situational aspect.  you'd have to go to play by play.  someone could probably write a program to do it if you can get the play by play into a format that can be utilized.

but 1 of 11 seasons is a fairly good direction along with the yardage to say there is some fuckery going on.

I have no doubt the situational aspect for us would be even more biased.  TCU last year was a perfect example as was OSU 2015 and this year.

[Hagbard Celine 10853]

i think 50% of the gripe is with penalties that are not called which makes the stats even more egregious

the other 50% of the gripe is "when" the flags are thrown on us and what the effect is on the game, and "when" the flags are not thrown on the opponent, and what effect that has on the game

only in the last 5 years has the fuckery become so crystal clear that i have to wonder if it is part of the reason for the move

the cigars and the tower took the high road decades ago and could never turn back, but i have to wonder if they too are not secretly fed up with the BS and said fuck it, let's roll

[BurntOrange&White 39931]

From Oklahoma's website so far on the season:

 

Ours:

 

Oklahoma St

 

Iowa St

 

TCU

 

Baylor

 

Of those teams Oklahoma and Iowa State have been called for the fewest penalties while opponents have been called for more.

Iowa State's is at least somewhat close in yards and totals.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by BurntOrange&White

[Zeus 6018]

The statistics don't really show the fuckery that goes on

Every single close call goes their way

We get a stop on 3rd and long, it's a chickenshit roughing the passer call.

We get a first down that's close, they stop our offense, give their defense a breather and review it only to say it's not a first down.

They throw a flag and fucking huddle up and decide what they are actually going to call (or if they are going to pick it up) for 2 mins. The out of bounds on the blowU receiver is the perfect example, ref threw his hat, meaning he went out of bounds, but they review the play for something else entirely instead of the right call they called in the first place.

[Eskimohorn 5633]

I would very much be in favor of a standardized group of officials.
Removing the conference affiliation seems like a no brainer when considering the shinanigans that people feel is going on.

Its why going independent in football needed to be evaluated carefully. Getting screwed by regional officials just sucks and will happen in the SEC. And complaining about it publicly never works and makes us look weak and just pisses people off.

But the 2013 season is interesting because I do recall a road screw job for Texas against Iowa St with PIs and fumble recoveries. That it happened to benefit Mack Brown when he was on the hot seat is suspicious.

The other thing I recall during the Tom Herman was the lopsided PI calls against Texas, where Herman admitted they needed to teach getting held better.

[Tex Pete 20341]

56 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

Its why going independent in football needed to be evaluated carefully. Getting screwed by regional officials just sucks and will happen in the SEC. And complaining about it publicly never works and makes us look weak and just pisses people off.

But the 2013 season is interesting because I do recall a road screw job for Texas against Iowa St with PIs and fumble recoveries. That it happened to benefit Mack Brown when he was on the hot seat is suspicious.
 

That's the only significant, game-changing call I can ever remember us getting. Even the infamous "You know what this is about?!" Kansas OPI call was technically the correct call.

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

14 hours ago, dcar00 said:

since they started showing the box I'm actually amazed at how accurate they are.  but I do know Maddux and Glavine would have had more trouble because I do believe the inside outside zone has tightened up.

I agree, the umps' accuracy rate is pretty amazing.  But it also allows us to see incorrect calls, which are just fucking maddening.  There were what, 23, wrong calls last night?  That's unacceptable.

[dcar00 14181]

15 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

That's the only significant, game-changing call I can ever remember us getting. Even the infamous "You know what this is about?!" Kansas OPI call was technically the correct call.

there was an OK state non fumble/fumble call if I remember. most of the time the calls we get are the Kansas "BCS" variety, cheap but correct.  the last aggy game aggy always bitches about a PF called that was fairly benign but it was technically correct.  the horsecollar we got called on against OSU is one of those type as well.

[dcar00 14181]

1 minute ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I agree, the umps' accuracy rate is pretty amazing.  But it also allows us to see incorrect calls, which are just fucking maddening.  There were what, 23, wrong calls last night?  That's unacceptable.

if it is really right on the edge, I'm good.  its when it is obviously a couple inches off OR if calls are only going ONE way that is a problem.  balls and strikes is going to have errors and I personally don't want electronic ump.

[statsman 5457]

On 10/18/2021 at 8:34 PM, ChiTownDoc said:

Agreed.  That was as bad as 1984 in Dallas.  

You mean the call late in the game, when the Sooner punter put his knee on the ground fielding the snap, and the refs didn’t blow the play dead?

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

Just now, dcar00 said:

if it is really right on the edge, I'm good.  its when it is obviously a couple inches off OR if calls are only going ONE way that is a problem.  balls and strikes is going to have errors and I personally don't want electronic ump.

Not me.  A strike is a strike and a ball is a ball, period.  Missed calls fuck up the game.  If a pitcher throws a strike that just barely catches the edge of the strike zone, that's the maximum amount of skill employed and should be called correctly.  Same with balls - if a hitter correctly lays off a pitch that is just outside the zone, he should be rewarded for his skill.

[dcar00 14181]

3 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Not me.  A strike is a strike and a ball is a ball, period.  Missed calls fuck up the game.  If a pitcher throws a strike that just barely catches the edge of the strike zone, that's the maximum amount of skill employed and should be called correctly.  Same with balls - if a hitter correctly lays off a pitch that is just outside the zone, he should be rewarded for his skill.

question, how do we know the box is accurate to the batters stance?

[txhorns 2409]

8 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Not me.  A strike is a strike and a ball is a ball, period.  Missed calls fuck up the game.  If a pitcher throws a strike that just barely catches the edge of the strike zone, that's the maximum amount of skill employed and should be called correctly.  Same with balls - if a hitter correctly lays off a pitch that is just outside the zone, he should be rewarded for his skill.

Hell the game last night was a perfect example of this going wrong.  Based on the box on tv the Astros struck out in the top of the 9th with no runs scored, however, the umpires missed the call thus giving the Astros a massive break.

[ChiTownDoc 21151]

34 minutes ago, statsman said:

You mean the call late in the game, when the Sooner punter put his knee on the ground fielding the snap, and the refs didn’t blow the play dead?

Yep.  It was a joke to get you riled up.  Read past that post.  

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

40 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

question, how do we know the box is accurate to the batters stance?

Vision.

[dcar00 14181]

7 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Vision.

you can't tell the top of the zone on the batter as it relates to the box from TV.  how do they create the box?  I'm asking because I don't know.  I'll take this over to the baseball board for now so we don't gum up fucking the Rig 12 refs.

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

35 minutes ago, txhorns said:

Hell the game last night was a perfect example of this going wrong.  Based on the box on tv the Astros struck out in the top of the 9th with no runs scored, however, the umpires missed the call thus giving the Astros a massive break.

It doesn't "go wrong" if a missed call is in favor of your team.  In a situation where the players are very highly skilled and the teams are evenly matched, very small differences affect the outcome.  I would prefer that the outcome matches the performance of the players, not missed calls.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

7 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

It doesn't "go wrong" if a missed call is in favor of your team.  In a situation where the players are very highly skilled and the teams are evenly matched, very small differences affect the outcome.  I would prefer that the outcome matches the performance of the players, not missed calls.

The players care about consistency. If that pitch has been a ball all night, and it's suddenly a strike that is what the players hate...More so than the specific strike zone as defined in the rule book. Maddux and Glavine were masters of pounding a spot early in a game until the umpire started giving them that spot. Usually an umpire won't give a pitcher latitude on both sides of the plate, but if you establish your "spot" early and hit it consistently, they will adjust their zone to give you that spot. Batters will learn they have to protect that spot or get rung up. Glavine's spot was bottom of the zone, outside corner. What would piss hitters off was when they would give him the inside strike as well. 

[Tex Pete 20341]

Baseball? Did I click on the wrong thread?

[Had Enough 2081]

That's the only significant, game-changing call I can ever remember us getting. Even the infamous "You know what this is about?!" Kansas OPI call was technically the correct call.

Mangino bitched. Some took it as gospel that we screwed em. It was a justifiable call.

The counter is to his Texas gets em all was I believe two years prior. Roy Williams was called for OPI versus Nebraskie in a similar situation. On the ensuing possession, Vashar picked it off to end it.

[Had Enough 2081]

there was an OK state non fumble/fumble call if I remember. most of the time the calls we get are the Kansas "BCS" variety, cheap but correct.  the last aggy game aggy always bitches about a PF called that was fairly benign but it was technically correct.  the horsecollar we got called on against OSU is one of those type as well.

The OSU non-call was odd. The broadcast crew didn’t mention it for more than two minutes after the play. The fans didn’t react. 21 of 22 players didn’t react. The refs didn’t react. I’m not certain video clearly showed it either way. Maybe it was a fumble. Maybe it wasn’t. But a reasonable person could say I understand why it was a non-call or called the way it was.

The A&M penalty was pretty weak but Keenan Robinson got one earlier that was weak too. Also after Cases dash, we wasted clock so who knows how that all plays out.

[JBJ 3654]

17 hours ago, Had Enough said:

Mangino bitched. Some took it as gospel that we screwed em. It was a justifiable call.

Mangino trying to call it a swim move has got to be one of the dumbest things a coach has ever said.

[Tex Pete 20341]

42 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Mangino trying to call it a swim move has got to be one of the dumbest things a coach has ever said.

He was hangry.

[sheeeit 129]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:11 PM, JimmyJames said:

OU gets called early for holding in the playoffs or the bowl game then they for the most part stop doing it because they learn they can’t do it. OU holds all game in the big 12 until the game is in hand or some incredibly obvious one happens then it gets called and they still hold afterwards because they know they will get away with it. 

I was curious about this so I checked. I started with OUs first 2 playoff appearances and then stopped because it appears you are dead wrong.  In 2015 against Clemson OU had zero holding penalties.  In 2018 against Georgia they had zero holding penalties.  
 

I’m sure it will be unpopular but if you watch the last TD where someone did a screen shot above, I actually do not think it was holding.  The OU guy ran up to the Texas defender and the defender really did nothing to get away.  He didn’t turn him or try to swing his arms to get free.  He just allowed himself to be blocked out of the play.   Just bad defense.  

[Dennis Taylor 18812]

On 10/12/2021 at 7:58 AM, Hookem2147 said:

SIAP but here is the final TD run. That’s Brockermeyer getting hugged as he’s trying to fill the hole.

 

On 10/12/2021 at 8:01 AM, Bigbend1812 said:

Are we playing count the holds?

I see 4 but I can only see 6 defenders so it's hard to say. That guy could easily grab Sweat if he thought he needed to

[sheeeit 129]

On 10/20/2021 at 10:18 AM, Ojo Rojo said:

Not me.  A strike is a strike and a ball is a ball, period.  Missed calls fuck up the game.  If a pitcher throws a strike that just barely catches the edge of the strike zone, that's the maximum amount of skill employed and should be called correctly.  Same with balls - if a hitter correctly lays off a pitch that is just outside the zone, he should be rewarded for his skill.

I have a good friend that is in the front office with the Diamondbacks. We were together a few weeks ago and he was showing me the technology for calling balls and strikes.

He said it will most likely be implemented in MLB in 2 to 3 years. The biggest drawbacks right now are the accuracy issues first. It currently has about a 95% accurate rate. Which is probably better than the umpires. The other issue is getting the technology to adjust to strike zones. Altuve should not have the same strike zone as Aaron judge.  Essentially, they are going to have to formally determine the strike zone, like from the knees to speak nipples.  And then measure every single player so that their individual strike zone can be used for their individual at bat.

[Nivek 16923]

On 10/20/2021 at 10:12 AM, dcar00 said:

there was an OK state non fumble/fumble call if I remember. most of the time the calls we get are the Kansas "BCS" variety, cheap but correct.  the last aggy game aggy always bitches about a PF called that was fairly benign but it was technically correct.  the horsecollar we got called on against OSU is one of those type as well.

The rage inducing part isn't the technically correct calls.  No one is saying that the horsecollar wasn't the correct call.  But we have all seen our backs get taken down the same way multiple times with zero flags.  I seem to think there is a bit of an extra step for out of bounds hits grace given to our opponents but I am not actually sure if that is real or imagined, so I usually don't gripe about it.   But the fuckery of ignoring all of the paint all over Sam's helmet from targeting is just part of the ongoing problem that we have observed presently and in the past stretching back over a decade.  Hell, even when we were good the fuckery was part of the program and was the only reason 2008 Tech happened.   I seem to remember the officials calling holding on Texas just to be dicks in that game because Tech's entire line held and performed wrestling moves without impunity.

[gernblansten 3196]

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

I was curious about this so I checked. I started with OUs first 2 playoff appearances and then stopped because it appears you are dead wrong.  In 2015 against Clemson OU had zero holding penalties.  In 2018 against Georgia they had zero holding penalties.   

I'll finish what you started.  Playoff penalties

OU v. Clemson:

OU 5/65 (0 holding) Clemson 5/40

OU v. UGA:

OU 1/5 (0 holding) UGA  6/39

OU v. Bama:

OU 7/55 (0 holding) Bama 9/86

OU v. LSU:

OU 8/62 (3 holding) LSU 4/49

[Nivek 16923]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:07 AM, Ojo Rojo said:

Vision.

Thanos killed him.

[Nivek 16923]

I think a key thing the refs should look out for is the player who tosses his hands up after grabbing.  It is always a guilty as fuck signal.

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

Whining about the refs and their grand conspiracy against us is the most embarrassing loser aggy shit. Obviously the refs are doing nothing to help us out but we’ve had plenty of (mostly unimportant) chickenshit calls go our way over the years and gotten away with uncalled holding, PI, targeting, etc countless times, much like our opponents. Maybe we typically have more penalties than our opponents because we’ve mostly fielded poorly coached undisciplined teams for over a decade now.

[Tex Pete 20341]

2 hours ago, Thermos H. Christ said:

Whining about the refs and their grand conspiracy against us is the most embarrassing loser aggy shit. Obviously the refs are doing nothing to help us out but we’ve had plenty of (mostly unimportant) chickenshit calls go our way over the years and gotten away with uncalled holding, PI, targeting, etc countless times, much like our opponents. Maybe we typically have more penalties than our opponents because we’ve mostly fielded poorly coached undisciplined teams for over a decade now.

That's fine, but you cannot explain away the replays that do not get it right (the catch after the player ran OOB), the refusal to review plays that would benefit us (the backward pass to Stoops, the potential Williams fumble), or the reviewing plays to call uncalled penalties (the multiple reviews a few years back to call illegal man downfield or OPI or whatever that bullshit was).

[Had Enough 2081]

 
I’m sure it will be unpopular but if you watch the last TD where someone did a screen shot above, I actually do not think it was holding.  The OU guy ran up to the Texas defender and the defender really did nothing to get away.  He didn’t turn him or try to swing his arms to get free.  He just allowed himself to be blocked out of the play.   Just bad defense.  

This is 100% wrong.

Texas defender keeps outside shoulder free (this used to be taught but not certain now). That would be his right shoulder. Blocker engages with his helmet on the left side of the defender. RB runs to the right of the Texas defender.

Now when the defender tries to spin out of the blocker and to the right where the ball carrier is, you will see the blockers left hand has jersey of the defender on the backside of the defenders right shoulder. This keeps the defender from being able to disengage.

With blockers head opposite of the ball carrier, it is not possible to keep the defender from flowing right unless that left arm goes some place it is not legally allowed to be. Thus the reason for the attempt to spin out of it, but the spin can’t happen because that left arm is wrapped in a bear hug fashion. Keep in mind the defender has what a third of a second to get away.

[sheeeit 129]

35 minutes ago, Had Enough said:

 

 

This is 100% wrong.

Texas defender keeps outside shoulder free (this used to be taught but not certain now). That would be his right shoulder. Blocker engages with his helmet on the left side of the defender. RB runs to the right of the Texas defender.

Now when the defender tries to spin out of the blocker and to the right where the ball carrier is, you will see the blockers left hand has jersey of the defender on the backside of the defenders right shoulder. This keeps the defender from being able to disengage.

With blockers head opposite of the ball carrier, it is not possible to keep the defender from flowing right unless that left arm goes some place it is not legally allowed to be. Thus the reason for the attempt to spin out of it, but the spin can’t happen because that left arm is wrapped in a bear hug fashion. Keep in mind the defender has what a third of a second to get away.

 

 

I have gone back and watched it in as slow a motion as I can and I do see partly what you see.  But it certainly looks to me that the in the initial contact between the LB and the OU guy that the OU guy had his hands in the chest of the LB.  He was driving him.  The OU guys hand doesnt seem to get to the back shoulder of the LB until the LB tries to spin.  It is maybe a grey area but I doubt that gets called holding even 2% of the times it occurs.

Lets not forget it was the exact same fucking play they scored on previously and the LB still let himself get blocked out of the play.  Zero anticipation or awareness.  He doesn't even try to get outside of the block either time.  Watch both plays.  When the LB sees #9 heading for him exactly as he did before in the exact same formation, the LB has to get outside of the block to stop the runner or at least slow him down.  But he just lets the blocker run right up to him.  That is bad defense.

There are crucial missed calls in every game but I dont think that was one of them.  It was also a damn fine designed play that OU executed perfectly.

[Deej 76759]

1 hour ago, Tex Pete said:

That's fine, but you cannot explain away the replays that do not get it right (the catch after the player ran OOB), the refusal to review plays that would benefit us (the backward pass to Stoops, the potential Williams fumble), or the reviewing plays to call uncalled penalties (the multiple reviews a few years back to call illegal man downfield or OPI or whatever that bullshit was).

My favorite is picking up the holding flag on the opposing team. Guy sees it, throws the flag, then gets talked into picking it up by an official was wasn't in as good of a position to see it. 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

2 hours ago, Tex Pete said:

That's fine, but you cannot explain away the replays that do not get it right (the catch after the player ran OOB), the refusal to review plays that would benefit us (the backward pass to Stoops, the potential Williams fumble), or the reviewing plays to call uncalled penalties (the multiple reviews a few years back to call illegal man downfield or OPI or whatever that bullshit was).

It happens to everybody. Penn State fans seem to think that, if not for the officials who are conspiring against them, they’d win every game. I could give you a long list of bad calls and non-calls that went against Ohio State. My biggest pet peeve is the inconsistency in targeting calls. I used to post video clips in game threads of hits that got Buckeye players ejected when the exact same hit was ruled not to be targeting in that particular game. Woody Hayes used to teach that you have to expect all the calls to go against you and you have to be prepared to overcome that.

Check this out. This play didn’t even get reviewed. I’ve heard different explanations. One was that there were technical difficulties in the replay booth. Another was that the replay official was in the restroom at the time.

I should add that that set up an Illinois TD back in 2007 and the Illini went on to upset tOSU. It should’ve been a touchback and Buckeye ball. Did that change the outcome of the game? Who knows? But it gave Illinois momentum and confidence. They went on to win the Big Ten with Ron Zook as head coach only to get throttled by Pete Carroll’s Trojans in the Rose Bowl. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by WhatTheBuck

[jw4381 3072]

9 hours ago, Tex Pete said:

He was hangry.

Perfect