Cops kill black man in Wolfe City

[Captainant 27680]

5 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I was told from someone I know that there were off duty cops (not sure from where) across the street and were yelling for the WCPD cop to "stand down" after he arrived and just before he pulled the trigger.  

idk man, seems like there's alot of ins and outs and what have you's. Better call in the rangers just to be sure

[TexArcher 37947]

33 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

We should all commend them for doing the most basic function of their job.

People get commended for doing their jobs well all the time.

Look, I get the frustration: the response here should pretty much always be the response to these things, and it isn't.  But it was this time.  We can be horrified that this happened once again but at least tip the cap to the people who are doing what they can to make sure that sack of shit doesn't get away with it.

[Bevo 13578]

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Glad he's arrested, charged with actual murder, with a high bond.  All of that said......

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR POLICE?  HOW DO WE PRODUCE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS CRAP AND TURN THEM LOOSE ON THE PUBLIC?

I'm sure the pool of qualified candidates is growing exponentially given the current anti-police, defunding-of-police environment. This holds even more true in places like the metropolis of Wolfe City.

[Brisketexan 105154]

4 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I'm sure the pool of qualified candidates is growing exponentially given the current anti-police, defunding-of-police environment. This holds even more true in places like the metropolis of Wolfe City.

"Qualified candidates" has two ingredients -- 1) raw material, and 2) training.

We take dipshits from Buttlick, Tennessee, and turn them into PFCs who can follow basic rules of engagement in combat, at significant personal risk because they're not shooting every possible threat.  If we can train the guy from Buttlick not to shoot every scary arab-looking dude he sees on patrol in Iraq, we can train a cop to do the same with respect to Americans.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Glad he's arrested, charged with actual murder, with a high bond.  All of that said......

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR POLICE?  HOW DO WE PRODUCE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS CRAP AND TURN THEM LOOSE ON THE PUBLIC?

This is one of the reasons ..... Used to be once upon a time, a Rookie Cop had to ride shotgun with a veteran of the force.    Even in small towns.  But because of budgets,  that stretches the force thin.  

Kind of the same thing we do with truck drivers too.    Some of these guys driving hazardous cargo in the oil fields get their CDL's today and driving solo tomorrow .  

[bernorange 8362]

50 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

HOW DO WE PRODUCE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS CRAP AND TURN THEM LOOSE ON THE PUBLIC?

The answer is simple.   Training.

[Herbie Hancock 7361]

The answer is simple.   Training.

Eh, at the risk of derailing (again) I’ll say this: you can’t train a moron not to be a moron. The fire service and ems are going through the same problems, it’s just not making news (yet). Some of the people I’ve had the displeasure of working with in recent memory aren’t competent enough to be trusted with aspirin and a Band-aid, yet we not only hired them but pushed them through even when they were given poor performance reviews. I’m not entirely sure why, but I do know when I started my journey to become a firefighter I was taking tests with thousands of people. The last test my department gave we had 301 people show up and we had 20+ vacancies to fill with another 10-15 projected by the end of the year due to retirement. The average IQ of the people seeking these jobs (police, fire, ems) is plummeting

[bernorange 8362]

@Herbie Hancock - does this help?

[Cajun 11714]

16 minutes ago, bernorange said:

The answer is simple.   Training & real accountability.

fify

[PilotsError 2291]

The military doesn't have soldier unions to threaten cities with chaos if they're held accountable.  Soldiers aren't trained to expect great sex after they've killed someone.  Even though soldiers are in actual war zones, they're not trained that every single person is an immediate threat to kill them.  

If you haven't read Rise of the Warrior Cop, buy it today.  You can't really have a conversation on policing without having read that.

[Herbie Hancock 7361]

[mention=5553]Herbie Hancock[/mention] - does this help?

Considering I have no idea who that is or where it’s from, no not really.

[CooterBrown 18014]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

It also should be noted: his department didn't do shit. They put him on paid vacation administrative leave, and it took the Texas motherfucking Rangers to actually bring charges against him. He murdered a man on Saturday night, on video, under color of law. The violent criminal wasn't actually arrested until Monday. Fuck that shit. That's unequal application of the law.

If only we had laws on the books to prosecute PDs that look the other way.

 

[52-80 19162]

4 hours ago, LurkingHorn said:

Agreed with those above. If there is video of this somewhere, it's going to be really awful. 

gas station.  theres 100% gonna be a video fo this

[Beau Vine 54247]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If we can train the guy from Buttlick not to shoot every scary arab-looking dude he sees on patrol in Iraq, we can train a cop to do the same with respect to Americans.

Can we?

[52-80 19162]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

Again, this was a basic investigation. Why do we, the tax payers, pay their salary if they are incapable of doing their most basic of jobs? I didn’t say they were equal to the Texas Rangers. I’m asking why they can’t perform their essential functions.

just for the record, would you prefer that the wolfe city handle this investigation 100% by themselves? 

or you just want to shit on anything law enforcement no matter what?

[Brisketexan 105154]

1 minute ago, Beau Vine said:

Can we?

In this country, 99% of our problems aren't due to lack of ability, they're due to lack of will.  Shit is like this because we WANT it to be that way.

[hobbes2702 13045]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

just for the record, would you prefer that the wolfe city handle this investigation 100% by themselves? 

or you just want to shit on anything law enforcement no matter what?

No I would prefer they don’t let someone who murders someone go home and get his story straight. 
 

The point though is that if the that agency is incapable of doing their job, why do we fund them? Everyone says defunding will make them worse at their job. They can’t even do their basic requirements.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

So some of y'all think we would be better off if police departments would investigate themselves instead of calling in a third party? Especially when the force is probably only like five officers and everybody knows everybody and their extended family because it is a small town?

I think y'all just might have the type of intelligence our police forces are looking for!

[hobbes2702 13045]

1 minute ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

So some of y'all think we would be better off if police departments would investigate themselves instead of calling in a third party? Especially when the force is probably only like five officers and everybody knows everybody and their extended family because it is a small town?

I think y'all just might have the type of intelligence our police forces are looking for!

Nope. No one thinks that actually.

But again, that’s an excuse for why they can’t do their job.

Edited October 6, 2020 by hobbes2702

[Huckleberry 32985]

Actually, yes, a police department should be able to do a preliminary investigation and arrest one of their own officers in an obvious situation.

The real issue is that everyone just accepts that they would never do that.

[hobbes2702 13045]

Just now, Huckleberry said:

Actually, yes, a police department should be able to do a preliminary investigation and arrest one of their own officers in an obvious situation.

The real issue is that everyone just accepts that they would never do that.

Correct. We don’t want them to, because they have proven incapable, but everyone here acting like it’s crazy that we think they should do their jobs.

[C-Man 27230]

3 hours ago, Captainant said:

Do you give out gold stars to your kids for doing what they're supposed to be doing in the first place? Or do you expect a pat on the head every time you submit your TPS reports on time at work? Why should the cops get extra praise for enforcing the law as it is written?

It also should be noted: his department didn't do shit. They put him on paid vacation administrative leave, and it took the Texas motherfucking Rangers to actually bring charges against him. He murdered a man on Saturday night, on video, under color of law. The violent criminal wasn't actually arrested until Monday. Fuck that shit. That's unequal application of the law.

Who else after committing a crime on camera that's known to law enforcement gets a free day to get their story straight? Fucking nobody, unless you're on the right side of the blue line.

Glad the Rangers got involved, but I wouldn't argue that the PD in question "got it right".

[52-80 19162]

23 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

No I would prefer they don’t let someone who murders someone go home and get his story straight. 
 

The point though is that if the that agency is incapable of doing their job, why do we fund them? Everyone says defunding will make them worse at their job. They can’t even do their basic requirements.

I prefer Texas beat TCU last weekend, but now it's about whether to replace Herman or not.  Dissecting what he should've done doesn't matter.

[bernorange 8362]

53 minutes ago, Cajun said:

fify

 

46 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

Considering I have no idea who that is or where it’s from, no not really.

Well, seeing Cajun's reply and seeing the pos rep it got, it looks like my comment flew over a lot of people's heads.

My comment was a joke in line with an old Saturday Night Live fake commercial for First CityWide Change Bank.  The point of the joke is that the answer is ridiculous.

 

[hobbes2702 13045]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I prefer Texas beat TCU last weekend, but now it's about whether to replace Herman or not.  Dissecting what he should've done doesn't matter.

We shouldn’t dissect the police not doing their jobs? Wut?

Edited October 6, 2020 by hobbes2702

[Foosters 17858]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I prefer Texas beat TCU last weekend, but now it's about whether to replace Herman or not.  Dissecting what he should've done doesn't matter.

Maybe message boards aren't the place for you then?

What a bizarre take.

[52-80 19162]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

We shouldn’t dissect the police not doing there jobs? Wut?

Nobody gave Wolfe PD props.  The fuck are you even arguing for?  There was an incident.  WPD may or may not have fucked up.  The best thing at this moment is for a 3rd party to conduct the investigation. 

 

The game was botched.  Best thing to do is for CDC to take action.  Best thing to do is not stomp your foot and demand Herman to find out which of his assistant to point the finger at.

[hobbes2702 13045]

Just now, Foosters said:

Maybe message boards aren't the place for you then?

What a bizarre take.

I’m truly not even understanding the point? We shouldn’t look at mistakes and learn from them to fix them? We should just change things without dissecting the problem? 

[Zepol87 9188]

Just now, 52-80 said:

Nobody gave Wolfe PD props.  The fuck are you even arguing for?  There was an incident.  WPD may or may not have fucked up.  The best thing at this moment is for a 3rd party to conduct the investigation. 

 

The game was botched.  Best thing to do is for CDC to take action.  Best thing to do is not stomp your foot and demand Herman to find out which of his assistant to point the finger at.

Good job on the bolded part. 

[hobbes2702 13045]

Just now, 52-80 said:

Nobody gave Wolfe PD props.  The fuck are you even arguing for?  There was an incident.  WPD may or may not have fucked up.  The best thing at this moment is for a 3rd party to conduct the investigation. 

 

The game was botched.  Best thing to do is for CDC to take action.  Best thing to do is not stomp your foot and demand Herman to find out which of his assistant to point the finger at.

Right. I’m talking about why they fucked up and why should we as the public continue paying for those fuckups. That’s an important part of the discussion and plan for how to move forward. What are you even talking about?

[52-80 19162]

3 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Maybe message boards aren't the place for you then?

What a bizarre take.

If you just wanted to cry outrage maybe an angry mob is the place for you

[Cajun 11714]

10 minutes ago, bernorange said:

 

Well, seeing Cajun's reply and seeing the pos rep it got, it looks like my comment flew over a lot of people's heads.

My comment was a joke in line with an old Saturday Night Live fake commercial for First CityWide Change Bank.  The point of the joke is that the answer is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, sorry bern, I switched to decaf.

[hobbes2702 13045]

Just now, 52-80 said:

If you just wanted to cry outrage maybe an angry mob is the place for you

I guess we shouldn’t be outraged at another incident of the state murdering an unarmed civilian. Happens all the time in this country anyway so why should we care.

[Cajun 11714]

1 hour ago, PilotsError said:

The military doesn't have soldier unions to threaten cities with chaos if they're held accountable.  Soldiers aren't trained to expect great sex after they've killed someone.  Even though soldiers are in actual war zones, they're not trained that every single person is an immediate threat to kill them.  

If you haven't read Rise of the Warrior Cop, buy it today.  You can't really have a conversation on policing without having read that.

Good tip.

Just ordered.

[Brisketexan 105154]

4 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Good tip.

Just ordered.

Why would you do that to yourself?  It will just make you ragey.  Seriously, we all know what's in it and what the story is.  Digging down into the depths will only make you angrier.  And we've got enough of that going around.  

[Captainant 27680]

10 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Right. I’m talking about why they fucked up and why should we as the public continue paying for those fuckups. That’s an important part of the discussion and plan for how to move forward. What are you even talking about?

"NO TALKING ABOUT HOW TO IMPROVE THE FOOTBALL TEAM, THE GAME THREAD IS ONLY FOR TALKING ABOUT THE PLAYS ON THE FIELD!"
-Blacklab, probably.

[52-80 19162]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Right. I’m talking about why they fucked up and why should we as the public continue paying for those fuckups. That’s an important part of the discussion and plan for how to move forward. What are you even talking about?

Since your 2-hour memory is clearly deficient, here's a refresher of the thread:

Saturday night: incident

Monday: Texas Rangers arrested and charged WPDO

Herbie:  "Rangers did the right thing sprinting into action; cant trust WPDO to do self investigation"

Your best friend captain antman:  "We shouldnt praise cops for doing their job"

You:  "hurr durr ditto why cant police investigate themselves"

 

Absolutely fucking nobody:  "WPD did a good job"

 

So you would have preferred that the Rangers not been involved.  That WPD arrested their own officer and conducted an investigation. 

 

Yeah, im SURE your reaction would have been even more sympathetic then.

[hobbes2702 13045]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Since your 2-hour memory is clearly deficient, here's a refresher of the thread:

Saturday night: incident

Monday: Texas Rangers arrested and charged WPDO

Herbie:  "Rangers did the right thing sprinting into action; cant trust WPDO to do self investigation"

Your best friend captain antman:  "We shouldnt praise cops for doing their job"

You:  "hurr durr ditto why cant police investigate themselves"

 

Absolutely fucking nobody:  "WPD did a good job"

 

So you would have preferred that the Rangers not been involved.  That WPD arrested their own officer and conducted an investigation. 

 

Yeah, im SURE your reaction would have been even more sympathetic then.

Do you know what the job of police is?

Also did I say they should investigate themselves or did I ask why they are incapable? And since they are incapable why we, the public, pay their salary?

And actually though, yes, if WPD had arrested their officer and charged him with murder I would have been more sympathetic. Because that’s their job. 
 

Should they conduct their own investigations? No because they have proven they can’t do their job. Which they proved again here by not arresting their officer and charging him for murder 

Edited October 6, 2020 by hobbes2702

[Beau Vine 54247]

35 minutes ago, bernorange said:

 

Well, seeing Cajun's reply and seeing the pos rep it got, it looks like my comment flew over a lot of people's heads.

My comment was a joke in line with an old Saturday Night Live fake commercial for First CityWide Change Bank.  The point of the joke is that the answer is ridiculous.

 

If you come to us with a 100-dollar bill, we're not going to give you 2,000 nickels.

[Cajun 11714]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Why would you do that to yourself?  It will just make you ragey.  Seriously, we all know what's in it and what the story is.  Digging down into the depths will only make you angrier.  And we've got enough of that going around.  

When I have a sore tooth I sometimes like to push on it till it hurts.

[BabaYaga 15301]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

"Qualified candidates" has two ingredients -- 1) raw material, and 2) training.

We take dipshits from Buttlick, Tennessee, and turn them into PFCs who can follow basic rules of engagement in combat, at significant personal risk because they're not shooting every possible threat.  If we can train the guy from Buttlick not to shoot every scary arab-looking dude he sees on patrol in Iraq, we can train a cop to do the same with respect to Americans.

I get your point, but this is a horrible analogy.  PFC's don't so much as scratch their ass without permission.  While most branches of the service instill accountability and decision making abilities, this comes much, much later (in terms of acting on their own).  Nor are they EVER just turned lose in communities other than in show of force patrols.

The distinction of course is training as mentioned.  They need a shit load more of it.  Lots, and lots, and lots of training.  Most precincts operate on a shoe-string budget, especially these smaller locales.  They take mouth-breathers because that is their talent pool.  Guys that often adversely select themselves to the role due to a lack of other qualifications.  Then with minimal training on firearms, situational awareness, de-escalation training, & physical confrontation training, turn them lose in the communities.  Hell, even PFC rotate in and out.  They have workups, follow up training, etc.  These guys just "do the job" and we hope they get it right.  

[BabaYaga 15301]

56 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

God you are such a whiny bitch. It’s not hard to follow a basic rule, yet not only are you unable to, it infests your brain so much that it comes out in every post. 

"Pickled in Politics" is the phrase you are looking for....

[Brisketexan 105154]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

I get your point, but this is a horrible analogy.  PFC's don't so much as scratch their ass without permission.  While most branches of the service instill accountability and decision making abilities, this comes much, much later (in terms of acting on their own).  Nor are they EVER just turned lose in communities other than in show of force patrols.

The distinction of course is training as mentioned.  They need a shit load more of it.  Lots, and lots, and lots of training.  Most precincts operate on a shoe-string budget, especially these smaller locales.  They take mouth-breathers because that is their talent pool.  Guys that often adversely select themselves to the role due to a lack of other qualifications.  Then with minimal training on firearms, situational awareness, de-escalation training, & physical confrontation training, turn them lose in the communities.  Hell, even PFC rotate in and out.  They have workups, follow up training, etc.  These guys just "do the job" and we hope they get it right.  

Fair enough.  Although every one of those fuckers on patrol has a round in the chamber and a finger next to the trigger.....yet they manage to follow the ROEs.  But yeah.....we take Harry High School with a chip on his shoulder and a low-IQ, actually train him INTO a culture of "warrior cop, engage each human as a threat, and neutralize all threats so you get home safe," and we get exactly what we're asking for.  We don't just fail to provide proper training and culture, we provide the OPPOSITE.  We take shitty raw material, and manage to make it shittier.

As noted in another thread, just ingraining the simple belief that "every discharge of your weapon is a failure -- it is a sub-optimal result" would do so much.  It is NEVER a good thing when you have to fire your weapon.  Your goal should ALWAYS be to protect all life (including any suspects/participants), and if you need to make an arrest, to do so without hurting people.  So, when/if you ever DO have such a situation where you need to take a life, your mentality is that you will do everything you can to avoid doing so, so that you can then say (and WE can then say) it was unavoidable, he had no choice.  That's not the culture and attitude embedded with a shitload of cops.  It's the opposite of their culture in many cases.  That's messed up.

[BabaYaga 15301]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Fair enough.  Although every one of those fuckers on patrol has a round in the chamber and a finger next to the trigger.....yet they manage to follow the ROEs.  But yeah.....we take Harry High School with a chip on his shoulder and a low-IQ, actually train him INTO a culture of "warrior cop, engage each human as a threat, and neutralize all threats so you get home safe," and we get exactly what we're asking for.  We don't just fail to provide proper training and culture, we provide the OPPOSITE.  We take shitty raw material, and manage to make it shittier.

As noted in another thread, just ingraining the simple belief that "every discharge of your weapon is a failure -- it is a sub-optimal result" would do so much.  It is NEVER a good thing when you have to fire your weapon.  Your goal should ALWAYS be to protect all life (including any suspects/participants), and if you need to make an arrest, to do so without hurting people.  So, when/if you ever DO have such a situation where you need to take a life, your mentality is that you will do everything you can to avoid doing so, so that you can then say (and WE can then say) it was unavoidable, he had no choice.  That's not the culture and attitude embedded with a shitload of cops.  It's the opposite of their culture in many cases.  That's messed up.

One is actively patrolling a defined AOR with known combatants, unless we want to start making the policing equates to a warzone analogy.....that I think is even worse. 

Statistically, less than 5% of all LE's over the course of their ENTIRE careers actually discharge their firearms.  A negligent discharge can tank your entire career trajectory.  So it's a big F'ing deal when it happens.  But even 5% is too high.  Again, to me it falls back on MORE resources, not less - even in the way of selection and compensation to attract and keep a higher caliber of applicant that then needs constant subsequent training and review (back to the military analogy - which is exactly what they do).  They also need a way to quickly and efficiently punt those out of programs that are sub-par.  Many precincts have personnel shortages, so they can't afford to get rid of anyone unless it's blatant.  

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Saturday night: incident

Monday: Texas Rangers arrested and charged WPDO

Herbie:  "Rangers did the right thing sprinting into action; cant trust WPDO to do self investigation"

So you don't see any disconnect in what you wrote? No potential cause for concern or irritation that after a clear murder, the cop was given 1-2 days to get story straight and game plan defense? You think that if you or I murdered in plain sight that we would have the same luxury?

I don't see anyone criticizing the Texas Rangers but perhaps this is why people aren't tripping over themselves to praise the Wolfe City PD.

[Brisketexan 105154]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

One is actively patrolling a defined AOR with known combatants, unless we want to start making the policing equates to a warzone analogy.....that I think is even worse. 

Statistically, less than 5% of all LE's over the course of their ENTIRE careers actually discharge their firearms.  A negligent discharge can tank your entire career trajectory.  So it's a big F'ing deal when it happens.  But even 5% is too high.  Again, to me it falls back on MORE resources, not less - even in the way of selection and compensation to attract and keep a higher caliber of applicant that then needs constant subsequent training and review (back to the military analogy - which is exactly what they do).  They also need a way to quickly and efficiently punt those out of programs that are sub-par.  Many precincts have personnel shortages, so they can't afford to get rid of anyone unless it's blatant.  

We can create shitty policing by a failure to do something: say, provide decent pay and fund decent training.

We can create shitty policing by having our police do something: actively train for and instill an "us against them," "warrior cop" culture.

Both things are true.  I think the second one is our bigger problem.  But I am not averse to addressing the first.....but it MUST be tied to the second.  If we pay them more, and make good training available....but they choose to continue to build up a culture that puts each officer in a state of warfare with the public every time he leaves the station, it's all for naught.

[Chewbacca 7780]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Glad he's arrested, charged with actual murder, with a high bond.  All of that said......

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR POLICE?  HOW DO WE PRODUCE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS CRAP AND TURN THEM LOOSE ON THE PUBLIC?

They train them to be scared of their own shadows.  They train them to fear for their lives at every encounter (even though statistics say that many jobs, including collecting the garbage and farming, are more dangerous than being a cop).  And we wonder why they react this way...

[bernorange 8362]

Pay and/or training won't fix bad apples.  Sunshine and accountability will fix bad apples.  Sunshine and accountability.  Everything else is a distraction.

[hobbes2702 13045]

4 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Pay and/or training won't fix bad apples.  Sunshine and accountability will fix bad apples.  Sunshine and accountability.  Everything else is a distraction.

This

[Chewbacca 7780]

16 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

One is actively patrolling a defined AOR with known combatants, unless we want to start making the policing equates to a warzone analogy.....that I think is even worse. 

The police are already making that analogy.  You're either a perp or a shield...