Fantasy Football Ethics Question

[TXSooner518 2438]

I have been part of a fantasy league for 25 years. Membership has evolved some, there are 3 of us left from season 1 and 5 from season 2. The current roster has all been together for a decade plus. It's a $100 league, and my brother and I drive from Austin to Oklahoma City for the draft weekend, play golf and poker, etc. So not a high stakes league, among friends and family.

This year, we decided to add keepers (and we do auction drafting). You can keep min 1, max 2. Value is this year's draft value plus $5 or 10%, whichever is greater. Free agents have value of $1. Some people wanted to have drafted players always keep draft value, but others didn't like that b/c if someone overpays, then cuts, the new owner shouldn't be bound to the old value. A potential loophole/issue got raised in Week 2 where the issue of players like Barkley came up. Either the player who had him has to keep Barkley all year in their IR spot, at their disadvantage, or cut him and someone can pick him up and keep for $6. So we implemented a rule where you can do what we call an "IR freeze" where you can drop a player on IR and they are frozen, and automatically in draft pool next year. We had a full discussion about if there were any other issues and none were raised.

We do FAAB bidding for the free agents. It has come to the league's attention that one player is saving all of his FAAB, so that he can cut a player (either Josh Jacobs or CEH) and then immediately resign him, so he can keep him for $6 next year. Wanted to get some outside opinions on this, thanks!!

[ztejas 43411]

Good God it took me awhile to understand this post. Tough read without coffee.

The scenario you describe in the last paragraph is smart as shit. I selected the first option in your poll because I suspect that's why people would be upset. He's just playing the game with the rules given to him and a $100 league is a $100 league - that's still some cash to a lot of people. If people in your league see it is a bad sportsmanship or ethics issue then they shouldn't be playing in money leagues.

But that's just my 2 cents. 

[HRSchenker 2268]

Keeper leagues are the worst. What was your reason for implementing that? 

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 hour ago, HRSchenker said:

Keeper leagues are the worst. What was your reason for implementing that? 

What do you not like about them? Ironically, we implemented it to make things more fun. Generally, adding strategic layers and decision points = bueno. So, say I have an underperforming rookie WR, do I cut him, or keep him on for now in hopes of keeping him for next year? 

I have a dynasty league also and love it. 

[Doc Sam Beckett 5792]

It's definitely exploiting a loophole and not really in the spirit of the game, but at the same time, he's not getting any weekly free agents, right? So he's making the sacrifice of not going after guys like Gallman or Freeman to rig his set up for next year. 

[immamac 42833]

Fuck this cheating ass shit. 

Cheating makes things not fun. If he thinks this isn't fun and is worth gaming stuff for instead of just playing fantasy sports this isn't a fun league anymore for at least him and it should end.

[BearSchlong 8082]

2nd option. He's not cheating.  If you don't like it you should implement a rule in the offseason to prevent future occurrences.  In fact y'all should name the rule after him and give him all kinds of shit in future years.  That's part of the fun of FF.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

It's definitely exploiting a loophole and not really in the spirit of the game, but at the same time, he's not getting any weekly free agents, right? So he's making the sacrifice of not going after guys like Gallman or Freeman to rig his set up for next year. 

this is wher i fall on the vote, too.

Yes, he's gaming the system, but there is a price to pay, yet and still.

 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

He's just taking advantage of a poorly-conceived rule. We have the exact same setup, auction keep two, and all players go for last year's auction price plus $5. Sure, some players will then have ridiculously inflated price tags, but so be it. They just get thrown back into the draft pool and everyone has a shot at them.

Making a bad rule then punishing him for abiding by the terms would be bad form. Much worse form than what he did. And what he is doing is pretty lame. I wouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't support retroactively changing the rules to counteract him. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by BradInATX

[TXSooner518 2438]

so what do you do with players who are cut, then picked back up? Still draft day value?

And yeah, we were trying to implement a change while dealing with covid issues, etc. 

[ztejas 43411]

18 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

so what do you do with players who are cut, then picked back up? Still draft day value?

And yeah, we were trying to implement a change while dealing with covid issues, etc. 

Just eliminate bidding on FA. Do a waiver wire. 

I mean that's what I would do. Seems like the bidding is turning into a huge headache. I agree with @BradInATX. Add another IR slot if that is such a concern.

Maybe you're stuck on the idea of sticking players with a value for the entire season? Why do they need that figure attached to them? If I was doing it I would say once a guy is drafted he's just like any other player in the league. Keep him, cut him, trade him, pick him up on the waiver wire, put him on IR etc.

I feel like y'all are overthinking a lot of this due to really specific hypotheticals.

Edited October 7, 2020 by ztejas

[TXSooner518 2438]

Keeper values have to be addressed.

For example, D'Andre Swift was bought on draft day for $17.  He was later cut, and signed from the waiver wire. What's his keeper value next year? $17+5, since draft day value? or $1+5, since he was signed as a free agent? It's not the bidding using FAAB (which is super duper standard) that is screwing anything up, it's a player deciding to "reset" his player's keeper value by cutting him, then immediately picking him back up. If we used a straight waiver wire, this would actually be EASIER, since whoever had the #1 waiver spot could just cut his top player, resign them, and now keep for $1+5. 

When you have keepers in an auction league, yes, players have to have a value attached. 

And I have literally no idea what you mean by adding another IR slot, it's completely unrelated to what's going on. 

[ztejas 43411]

16 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

Keeper values have to be addressed.

For example, D'Andre Swift was bought on draft day for $17.  He was later cut, and signed from the waiver wire. What's his keeper value next year? $17+5, since draft day value? or $1+5, since he was signed as a free agent? It's not the bidding using FAAB (which is super duper standard) that is screwing anything up, it's a player deciding to "reset" his player's keeper value by cutting him, then immediately picking him back up. If we used a straight waiver wire, this would actually be EASIER, since whoever had the #1 waiver spot could just cut his top player, resign them, and now keep for $1+5. 

When you have keepers in an auction league, yes, players have to have a value attached. 

And I have literally no idea what you mean by adding another IR slot, it's completely unrelated to what's going on. 

The fix you're looking for might be to only allow teams to keep drafted or traded for players.

I mean there are going to be pros and cons for anything you choose to do.

I brought up the IR because you said you don't want a team to be disadvantaged by keeping someone on their IR. So just add another IR slot. It could even be a "keeper" designated IR slot. Or, if not, the fix I suggested above solves the Saquon issue anyway. 

[TXSooner518 2438]

The Barkley issue we already resolved by allowing a player to be dropped and “frozen” for pickup by any other team.

Also you can’t add an IR or bench slot in ESPN leagues mid season.

And no keeper league would ever disallow keeping any free agent or waiver picks, that would really suck and be a huge overreaction to a problem that has multiple ways to solve it.

The problem isn’t “how to come up with a good rule”, it was more “should we address this mid season or nah”.

Thanks for everyone’s feedback!!

[BradInATX 9208]

Keeper values have to be addressed.
For example, D'Andre Swift was bought on draft day for $17.  He was later cut, and signed from the waiver wire. What's his keeper value next year? $17+5, since draft day value? or $1+5, since he was signed as a free agent? It's not the bidding using FAAB (which is super duper standard) that is screwing anything up, it's a player deciding to "reset" his player's keeper value by cutting him, then immediately picking him back up. If we used a straight waiver wire, this would actually be EASIER, since whoever had the #1 waiver spot could just cut his top player, resign them, and now keep for $1+5. 
When you have keepers in an auction league, yes, players have to have a value attached. 
And I have literally no idea what you mean by adding another IR slot, it's completely unrelated to what's going on. 

In our league it's 17+5. Obviously overpriced but it is what it is. Everyone knows the rules and whoever picks him up on waivers knows he'll be $22 next year. No perfect system but the headaches this way are minor.

[VolenteHawk 495]

My auction league is very similar, in your case I’d make a couple of changes. Free agent pickups should be $10+5 to keep, not $1+5. So, if you luck box into Kareem Hunt 2018, good on you but you’re not finding value in a WR3 or something. There should be no minimum number of keepers, if a player wants to throw his whole roster back he should be allowed to. A player being dropped and added back by the same team doesn’t affect his keeper value, the controlling documents are draft day prices and end of season roster. Anybody you didn’t draft is $15 to keep and anybody you did is draft day value plus inflation rate...there is no need to track cuts and adds.

The Barkley owner in my league cut him to use his IR spot on a better future value, so I used some FAAB on him. He’ll be $15 for me next year. I’ve had Zeke since his suspension year discount, but he’ll cost me market rate next year...so a good time to rebuild.

[VolenteHawk 495]

8 hours ago, ztejas said:

Just eliminate bidding on FA. Do a waiver wire. 

I would rather play in a league where you start 3 kickers than one that uses waiver wire ordering instead of FAAB.

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 hour ago, VolenteHawk said:

My auction league is very similar, in your case I’d make a couple of changes. Free agent pickups should be $10+5 to keep, not $1+5. So, if you luck box into Kareem Hunt 2018, good on you but you’re not finding value in a WR3 or something. There should be no minimum number of keepers, if a player wants to throw his whole roster back he should be allowed to. A player being dropped and added back by the same team doesn’t affect his keeper value, the controlling documents are draft day prices and end of season roster. Anybody you didn’t draft is $15 to keep and anybody you did is draft day value plus inflation rate...there is no need to track cuts and adds.

The Barkley owner in my league cut him to use his IR spot on a better future value, so I used some FAAB on him. He’ll be $15 for me next year. I’ve had Zeke since his suspension year discount, but he’ll cost me market rate next year...so a good time to rebuild.

Thanks! 10+5 is an interesting idea. 

What happens for trades?  Say I draft a player for $20, cut him, pick him back up, then trade him to you. Is your keeper value $25 or $15? 

We discussed no minimums for keepers but thought that was more boring. 1 spot out of 15 shouldn't be too oppressive, esp since you can keep a FA for $6 in our league. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

I feel like you kind of have to let it ride for this year. If you want to implement a rule next year then that’s one thing, but he’s putting himself at a disadvantage this year by not spending FAAB this year. It is kinda Bush league, but he’s just using the rules to his advantage. I don’t have a problem with it, but if I was commish I would probably put a rule in place so it cant happen next year 

[TXSooner518 2438]

23 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I feel like you kind of have to let it ride for this year. If you want to implement a rule next year then that’s one thing, but he’s putting himself at a disadvantage this year by not spending FAAB this year. It is kinda Bush league, but he’s just using the rules to his advantage. I don’t have a problem with it, but if I was commish I would probably put a rule in place so it cant happen next year 

One other note is you can keep for unlimited years, just with the inflation. So if allowed, he could keep Jacobs or CEH for $6 next year, then $11, then $16, then $21, etc. If it was single year keeper thing, I think people would be more inclined to say "hey good one, let's fix it now"

 

[ztejas 43411]

1 hour ago, TXSooner518 said:

What happens for trades?  Say I draft a player for $20, cut him, pick him back up, then trade him to you. Is your keeper value $25 or $15? 

No offense but your league sounds like an absolute beating.

[TXSooner518 2438]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

No offense but your league sounds like an absolute beating.

Which of those steps is hard or unusual? Some people like thinking and decisions rather than just doing a mindless snake draft in 30 minutes, then just hoping you're at the top of the waiver wire randomly when a star RB goes down. And my question was technically about Brad's league, not mine. 

Plus there are TONS of leagues that are way more complicated, such as using IDPs, having long term and short term "contracts" and salary caps, with things like if you cut the guy, you still are responsible for half the salary, etc, etc. 

[gsoda3 3245]

no don't resolve midseason.  never do that unless it's a glaring example of cheating.  

[VolenteHawk 495]

1 hour ago, TXSooner518 said:

Thanks! 10+5 is an interesting idea. 

What happens for trades?  Say I draft a player for $20, cut him, pick him back up, then trade him to you. Is your keeper value $25 or $15? 

We discussed no minimums for keepers but thought that was more boring. 1 spot out of 15 shouldn't be too oppressive, esp since you can keep a FA for $6 in our league. 

Trades transfer draft value, so the cut/add thing is still not relevant in our league.  So...$25.

The keeper thing is the one I'd care least about.  Every team this year kept 2, so it probably doesn't come into play, anyway.

[ztejas 43411]

14 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

Which of those steps is hard or unusual? Some people like thinking and decisions rather than just doing a mindless snake draft in 30 minutes, then just hoping you're at the top of the waiver wire randomly when a star RB goes down. And my question was technically about Brad's league, not mine. 

Plus there are TONS of leagues that are way more complicated, such as using IDPs, having long term and short term "contracts" and salary caps, with things like if you cut the guy, you still are responsible for half the salary, etc, etc. 

No I get the desire to have rules that enhance the experience. Was more getting at it seems like you have a lot of members crying foul without presenting a solution to the issue. And that they're kind of divided on a lot of this stuff.

[hornbri 1391]

You could also add a rule you cannot keep any player you dropped at any point in the season (for next year, you can't do it now). Then you are forced to use a IR spot or decide not to keep them. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

7 hours ago, hornbri said:

You could also add a rule you cannot keep any player you dropped at any point in the season (for next year, you can't do it now). Then you are forced to use a IR spot or decide not to keep them. 

I was going to mention something like this for a rule change. In the keeper leagues I’ve been in, you can’t keep a person you picked up off waivers or FA. Those players automatically go back into the draft since we can’t assign a round or dollar value to what they’re worth to keep. So that would put an end to it. 

[TheFlyingBoat 906]

This is why you always use draft day value for keepers. If someone drops in value relative value and would be overpriced JUST DON'T KEEP THEM. Problem fucking solved. A system that lets you get Saquon Barkley for $6 after people drafted him for $68 or whatever it may be is fucking dumb for such obvious reasons.The point is to give value to prescient drafting and acquisitions. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

We do FAAB with an unlimited budget in a 3 keeper auction league (you can keep a player three times after the year of acquisition).  But every dollar you spend on a winning FAAB bid is a dollar you have to pay in.  Barkley went for $90 in our keeper league.  So he was worthless as a keeper because he would cost $99 next year (we do pickup value + 10% with a $10 floor).  So when he was dropped everyone had the chance to bid on him.  He went for $30, wo he will cost $33 next year and can be kept two more years .  A great deal.  But we have short benches and no IR.  So the guy who picked him up is really struggling because he has several players out (Chubb and AJ Brown) plus bye weeks and Covid.

Prevents your issue because budget is not a constraint.  Anyone who wants him can pay and deal with the roster constraint.  I like unlimited FAAB.  I am in a league I have played in for 20 years now and we all are relatively financially equal, so money whipping isn't an issue.   Hell I like making fun of people when they waste $70 on a pickup.  And since we have gone to unlimited FAAB the pots have gotten much richer.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:46 AM, hornbri said:

You could also add a rule you cannot keep any player you dropped at any point in the season (for next year, you can't do it now). Then you are forced to use a IR spot or decide not to keep them. 

Agreed you cannot do it now.  We do not and have never done a rule change during a season unless it is unanimous.

[Firemans4Horn 18034]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:46 AM, hornbri said:

You could also add a rule you cannot keep any player you dropped at any point in the season (for next year, you can't do it now). Then you are forced to use a IR spot or decide not to keep them. 

this is the best fix suggested to your specific hypothetical. 
 

If he is one of the 5 guys in the league for 24 years send him a text and tell him not to be a dickhead. 

[closetohumping 17432]

So I made a trade late last night.  I gave up:

Joe Mixon/Hooper/Manny Sanders 

 

 

I received Carson/Mike Williams.  The players I gave up are all out now.  Any ethics questions?

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

2 hours ago, closetohumping said:

So I made a trade late last night.  I gave up:

Joe Mixon/Hooper/Manny Sanders 

 

 

I received Carson/Mike Williams.  The players I gave up are all out now.  Any ethics questions?

I feel like you have to let that one sit. Mixon and hooper were always on the fence for this weeks game, and sanders has obviously been out for a while. I wouldn’t expect Mixon to be out for long since it seemed like he would play this week. Is Gio Bernard available?

[Guest]

On 10/23/2020 at 2:25 PM, closetohumping said:

So I made a trade late last night.  I gave up:

Joe Mixon/Hooper/Manny Sanders 

 

 

I received Carson/Mike Williams.  The players I gave up are all out now.  Any ethics questions?

Nope, not unless  you had inside info that they would be out...