Azerbaijani-Armenian Conflict

[B00M 6,414]

11 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

$50k robot with extremely advanced automated target seeking and identification AI that is tactically enabled with armor playing and advanced weaponry. 

Hahah..

Know how I know you don't tech nerd or government contract?

The inefficiencies and cost required for humans to design, build, and maintain robotic weapons is saving us from ourselves. Very comforting.

[Parliament 14,253]

11 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The US Navy has been patenting some pretty eye opening stuff of late. 

This was discussed in the Joe Rogan UFO thread.  The tinfoil hat crowd thinks the Navy captured a UFO and is reverse engineering antigravity and such.

[nineliveslost 2,753]

6 minutes ago, Parliament said:

This was discussed in the Joe Rogan UFO thread.  The tinfoil hat crowd thinks the Navy captured a UFO and is reverse engineering antigravity and such.

Could such a thing be possible? Why yes, yes it can

[Brisketexan 105,090]

$50k robot with extremely advanced automated target seeking and identification AI that is tactically enabled with armor plating and advanced weaponry. 
Hahah..
Know how I know you don't tech nerd or government contract?

Nah. Doesn’t need to be high end at all. Scalable target-seeking tech is reasonably cheap (dude...Azerbaijan is fielding it). Doesn’t need much armor or advanced weaponry - it’s a kamikaze killbot. That’s the whole point - something that can be mass produced and fielded cheaply.

It ain’t here today. But it’s coming.

[InkaUtexas 25,879]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Nah. Doesn’t need to be high end at all. Scalable target-seeking tech is reasonably cheap (dude...Azerbaijan is fielding it). Doesn’t need much armor or advanced weaponry - it’s a kamikaze killbot. That’s the whole point - something that can be mass produced and fielded cheaply.

It ain’t here today. But it’s coming.

Have not seen the specifications on the Azerbaijan drones, but wonder if they are getting them from Turkey. There were some videos that came out of Libya showing similar hits on both sides. 

Would not it put it past the Turks to use this conflict to try out some new toys. 

[Parliament 14,253]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Nah. Doesn’t need to be high end at all. Scalable target-seeking tech is reasonably cheap (dude...Azerbaijan is fielding it). Doesn’t need much armor or advanced weaponry - it’s a kamikaze killbot. That’s the whole point - something that can be mass produced and fielded cheaply.

It ain’t here today. But it’s coming.

This here is a more advanced version, buy you could build something remote-control in your garage for $15k plus the cost of the gun.  Put a M249 on top and a pound of C4 on bottom and go wreck havoc.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3995476/The-shape-shifting-mini-tank-built-machine-gun-hit-targets-mile-away-Watch-ADDER-action.html

[Captainant 27,644]

Spoiler

 

Ceasefire has broken down. Videos starting to come out of Azerbaijan using cluster munitions against civilian centers. But it looks like it's tit-for-tat from the Armenians sending ballistic missiles into population centers. Fuckin hell

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

My only contribution is that there has been a number of protests related to this here in NYC over the last week.

[Parliament 14,253]

Has Surly taken sides in this? I assume we're for Azerbaijan because of the Kardassians?

[MoJames 8,244]

12 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Has Surly taken sides in this? I assume we're for Azerbaijan because of the Kardassians?

[nineliveslost 2,753]

16 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Has Surly taken sides in this? I assume we're for Azerbaijan because of the Kardassians?

Wouldnt that make us on the Armeni side? I hate those bitches

[atomheartbevo 89,639]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

Has Surly taken sides in this? I assume we're for Azerbaijan because of the Kardassians?

Yeah, fuck the Armenians, they are the Irish of the Caucasus.

And fuck the Kardassians and anybody else whose daddy is OJ Simpson.

Edited October 13, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[InkaUtexas 25,879]

Team Armenia here. 

1- We walked away from the Bosnians. Why? Oh, they are different in their region. Look what happened. 

2- Fuck the turks and their vision of Ottoman glory. 

3- if we support them now, we can have an air base, perhaps, in the future. 

4- Prove to me hot Azer's exist. 

[nineliveslost 2,753]

Russians already have a base in Armenia

[InkaUtexas 25,879]

15 minutes ago, nineliveslost said:

Russians already have a base in Armenia

yeah, and they had quite a few in Afghanistan. Shit changes. 

[nineliveslost 2,753]

7 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

yeah, and they had quite a few in Afghanistan. Shit changes. 

This is a little different , they were never welcomed in Afghanistan. Armenia and Russia are allies and work closely together. In fact the have a mutual defensive deal 

[InkaUtexas 25,879]

Actually they were, just not by the population. They had an agreement with Afghanistan prior to KGB/others killing the President. That is when the tribes revolted. And again, shit changes. 

Armenia could go the way of Georgia (Talking with NATO) or the way of Uzbekistan. Armenia is key to the Caspian pipeline, etc. 

Back whomever you want. Prove point #4 and then we can talk. 

[nineliveslost 2,753]

I'm kinda on the back no sides 

This has the potentially to escalate into a very problematic war if it really does bring in the outliers of Iran, Russia and Turkey. 

[MillerEP 30,450]

I don't think the US will get involved in this one. One one side is our NATO ally Turkey, On the other is legal precedent since the territory  they're fighting over is legally recognized as sovereign Azerbaijani territory, and as stated early they were a part of the "coalition of the willing." Quite the pickle.

Turkey has had a beef with Armenia since the Armenian Genocide that they not-so-cleverly keep denying. Russia has always been on the side of Armenia since the genocide, they're the ones who stepped in to protect them. 

[Brisketexan 105,090]

38 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

I don't think the US will get involved in this one. One one side is our NATO ally Turkey, On the other is legal precedent since the territory  they're fighting over is legally recognized as sovereign Azerbaijani territory, and as stated early they were a part of the "coalition of the willing." Quite the pickle.

Turkey has had a beef with Armenia since the Armenian Genocide that they not-so-cleverly keep denying. Russia has always been on the side of Armenia since the genocide, they're the ones who stepped in to protect them. 

Yeah....any involvement we have will be via proxies, working with other secondary parties, etc.

It's a tough one.

Oh, and I tend to lean slightly to sympathize with Armenia, mostly because I've visited, met the people, etc.  They're just folks.  Like people most anywhere.  I think this particular war is foolhardy in multiple directions.  But the real decider for me is the fact that as a geopolitical player.....Turkey fucking SUCKS.  

[CDAK 216]

Also team Armenia, at least in the sense that I hope the Armenians living in the disputed territory are not killed or forced to go to other parts of Armenia.

I'm primarily team Armenia because Erdogan is a despot seemingly intent on continued imperialism and murder against Kurds, Cypriots, Armenians, etc. The West seems committed to continued appeasement. I hope someone, shit even Iran, decides against continued appeasement.

[MagicSoccerSpray 1,732]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:37 AM, Lobo said:

Gee, I wonder if the fact that the world's only Superpower somehow managed to back both sides of this horrific conflict has anything to do with the decisions made earlier with this week in Stockholm.  the world tends to frown on playing both sides of a war, unless your the incomparable Nick Cage in "Lord of War", a really underrated flick.  

 

How has the US backed Armenia? Specifically? And aside from negotiating and encouraging the Caspian pipeline in the late nineties, how has the US backed the Azeris? Specifically?

In case no one is noticing, the US is moving away as the "world's policeman", and has been for about 15 years. We do not have a dog in this fight, and won't in most fights to come, save the Pacific.

[Guest Lobo]

We are neither directly supporting Armenia nor Azerbeijan.  We are looking the other way though as the two powers behind this proxy war duke it out.  We tacitly kiss the ass of both Russia and Turkey, as well as the despots who run those nations.  That is an unsustainable model.  Armenia and Azerbeijan aren't the issue for the U.S. and/or NATO.  Sooner of later, we can't be the kid hoping for attention at the party from both Putin and Erdogan.  We're gonna have to grow a spine.  This just the latest incarnation of proxy battles for test the U.S. and NATO.  

[MagicSoccerSpray 1,732]

22 minutes ago, Lobo said:

We are neither directly supporting Armenia nor Azerbeijan.  We are looking the other way though as the two powers behind this proxy war duke it out.  We tacitly kiss the ass of both Russia and Turkey, as well as the despots who run those nations.  That is an unsustainable model.  Armenia and Azerbeijan aren't the issue for the U.S. and/or NATO.  Sooner of later, we can't be the kid hoping for attention at the party from both Putin and Erdogan.  We're gonna have to grow a spine.  This just the latest incarnation of proxy battles for test the U.S. and NATO.  

 

That is not what you posted. You wrote:

Quote

Gee, I wonder if the fact that the world's only Superpower somehow managed to back both sides of this horrific conflict has anything to do with the decisions made earlier with this week in Stockholm.

So again, how has the US backed either side? The rest of your reply would seem to agree with my observation of American geopolitical withdrawal. And how is our detachment an "unsustainable model"? What interests do we have with either of the combatants or with the area? How does it hurt us geopolitically to let the Russians and Turks bleed themselves dry? Fuck both of them.

Edited October 13, 2020 by MagicSoccerSpray

[Guest Lobo]

That's what proxy wars are.  It's the people fighting on the ground, but it's also the powers behind them/supplying them/egging them on.  The sides aren't just the ones listed, they're also Russia and Turkey.   

This may come as a shock to you, but from 1955-1975, we weren't just fighting North Vietnam.  We were also fighting, by proxy, the USSR-their true backer.  Those little wars we fought in the 1980's in Central America?  Those were also proxy wars with the USSR.  Not all wars are named just for the primary belligerents.  Spoiler Alert:  The French & Indian War...yeah that wasn't between France and Indians nor France and Native Americans.  

We're backing both Turkey and Russia right now, at least in terms of diplomacy and absence of condemnation.  That's an unsustainable model.  Or so history says.  It's okay, we'll get you caught up later this weekend.  

[Parliament 14,253]

We are neither directly supporting Armenia nor Azerbeijan.  We are looking the other way though as the two powers behind this proxy war duke it out.  We tacitly kiss the ass of both Russia and Turkey, as well as the despots who run those nations.  That is an unsustainable model.  Armenia and Azerbeijan aren't the issue for the U.S. and/or NATO.  Sooner of later, we can't be the kid hoping for attention at the party from both Putin and Erdogan.  We're gonna have to grow a spine.  This just the latest incarnation of proxy battles for test the U.S. and NATO.  

So we either get involved in a part of the world that has little impact on America, or stand aside while two other nations fight a proxy war? If that's my choice, I choose the latter. Not our monkey, not our zoo.

[4th and 5 4,914]

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1315928077936062465

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1315160714135457793

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1314950036216840199

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1314938498739208192

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1314825084566212608

Run.

NVM

Too late.

[Dnaguy 11,929]

27 minutes ago, 4th and 5 said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1315928077936062465

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1315160714135457793

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1314950036216840199

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1314938498739208192

https://mobile.twitter.com/immortalone111/status/1314825084566212608

Run.

NVM

Too late.

If Yerevan or around a targeted area like this, I suggest you Baku-p and GTFO. Better to always Eurduon the side of caution.

Stalin will only leave you in worse shape as they’ll be Putin you in a body bag.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Dnaguy

[Js1 85,300]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

3 hours ago, Lobo said:

We are neither directly supporting Armenia nor Azerbeijan.  We are looking the other way though as the two powers behind this proxy war duke it out.  We tacitly kiss the ass of both Russia and Turkey, as well as the despots who run those nations.  That is an unsustainable model.  Armenia and Azerbeijan aren't the issue for the U.S. and/or NATO.  Sooner of later, we can't be the kid hoping for attention at the party from both Putin and Erdogan.  We're gonna have to grow a spine.  This just the latest incarnation of proxy battles for test the U.S. and NATO.  

So we either get involved in a part of the world that has little impact on America, or stand aside while two other nations fight a proxy war? If that's my choice, I choose the latter. Not our monkey, not our zoo.

Oh but we are so good at that! 

[MillerEP 30,450]

Cease Fire basically fell apart right after it was signed. Death toll up to about 600 now. I also found a pretty good report on the conflict, complete with visual aids and graphs, if anybody is up for the read. It doesn't include October's death toll numbers:

https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/nagorno-karabakh-conflict-visual-explainer

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by MillerEP

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

Is Azerbaijani a real word?  When I worked over there the locals were called Azeris, but maybe that's a derogatory slang term and not PC?

Edited October 15, 2020 by Fudge Nuggets

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

On 10/10/2020 at 11:19 AM, Parliament said:

This here is a more advanced version, buy you could build something remote-control in your garage for $15k plus the cost of the gun.  Put a M249 on top and a pound of C4 on bottom and go wreck havoc.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3995476/The-shape-shifting-mini-tank-built-machine-gun-hit-targets-mile-away-Watch-ADDER-action.html

Adding that to my Christmas Wish List.

[MillerEP 30,450]

Suicide drone launcher:

Swarm intelligence:

 

[Brisketexan 105,090]

^^^^^

So, humanity....it seems pretty clear for us.....

[MagicSoccerSpray 1,732]

On 10/13/2020 at 2:07 PM, Lobo said:

That's what proxy wars are.  It's the people fighting on the ground, but it's also the powers behind them/supplying them/egging them on.  The sides aren't just the ones listed, they're also Russia and Turkey.   

This may come as a shock to you, but from 1955-1975, we weren't just fighting North Vietnam.  We were also fighting, by proxy, the USSR-their true backer.  Those little wars we fought in the 1980's in Central America?  Those were also proxy wars with the USSR.  Not all wars are named just for the primary belligerents.  Spoiler Alert:  The French & Indian War...yeah that wasn't between France and Indians nor France and Native Americans.  

We're backing both Turkey and Russia right now, at least in terms of diplomacy and absence of condemnation.  That's an unsustainable model.  Or so history says.  It's okay, we'll get you caught up later this weekend.  

 

Everyone here knows what proxy wars are. We are currently backing neither Russia or Turkey, regardless of twisted rationalizations where the US doing nothing equates to US "backing". And there has been plenty of condemnation from State, military, and private sources. So again, if the US is neither arming , nor advising, any the combatants, how is "the world's only superpower" "backing" both sides?

 

9 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Is Azerbaijani a real word?  When I worked over there the locals were called Azeris, but maybe that's a derogatory slang term and not PC?

An Azerbaijani is a national of Azerbaijan, while an Azeri is an ethnicity.

[Hank Scorpio 17,729]

On 10/12/2020 at 7:23 PM, InkaUtexas said:

Team Armenia here. 

1- We walked away from the Bosnians. Why? Oh, they are different in their region. Look what happened. 

2- Fuck the turks and their vision of Ottoman glory. 

3- if we support them now, we can have an air base, perhaps, in the future. 

4- Prove to me hot Azer's exist. 

Hmmm I was team Azerbaijan because I refuse to support the filthy Armenian, but I think you have swayed me. Death to the Azerbaijan infidels and may the Caspian Sea run red with their blood. 

[Captainant 27,644]

1 hour ago, MillerEP said:

Suicide drone launcher:

Swarm intelligence:

 

IMO "suicide drone" is a bit hyperbolic - it's more apt just to call them "swarm missles" since that's really what they are

[gsoda3 3,253]

Suicide drone launcher:
[/url] Swarm intelligence:
 

Wouldn't that just be a missile?

[Somnio 751]

Obviously fiction, but not particularly unrealistic...

 

[MillerEP 30,450]

I guess you'e both right. Maybe the distinction is the intelligence driving it?

[Parliament 14,253]

Project Insight. Google it.

[The Ace of Aces 5,177]

15 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Is Azerbaijani a real word?  When I worked over there the locals were called Azeris, but maybe that's a derogatory slang term and not PC?

Lived in Baku for a 8 months in 1990-91 ... it’s changed a lot. 

[MillerEP 30,450]

Really heating up since the collapse of the first cease-fire, estimated around 5,000 deaths, and Russia and Turkey are weighing getting more involved. Armenia is also taking a hard line that "There is no Armenia without Nagorno-Karabakh."

 

https://apnews.com/article/turkey-russia-armenia-azerbaijan-69b20c98a79d4670db234caaabaa8f61

 

Nagorno-Karabakh fighting raises threat of escalation

By AVET DEMOURIANyesterday

YEREVAN, Armenia (AP) — Heavy fighting over Nagorno-Karabakh continued Thursday with Armenia and Azerbaijan trading blame for new attacks, hostilities that raised the threat of Turkey and Russia being drawn into the conflict.

Speaking in Moscow, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that according to the information Russia has acquired, the combined deaths from nearly four weeks of fighting over the region are nearing 5,000. Putin emphasized the need to negotiate a truce quickly.

Azerbaijan’s Defense Ministry accused Armenia of firing several ballistic missiles from its territory at the Azerbaijani cities of Gabala, Siyazan and Kurdamir, which are located far from the area of fighting in Nagorno-Karabakh. It said there were no casualties.

The Armenian military rejected the claim as a “cynical lie.”

Nagorno-Karabakh lies within Azerbaijan but has been under the control of ethnic Armenian forces backed by Armenia since a war there ended in 1994. The current fighting that started on Sept. 27 already has killed hundreds, marking the biggest escalation in the conflict since the war’s end.

Two Russia-brokered cease-fires collapsed instantly after taking effect, and the warring parties have continued to exchange blows with heavy artillery, rockets and drones.

Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev has said that to end hostilities Armenian forces must withdraw from Nagorno-Karabakh. He has insisted that Azerbaijan has the right to reclaim its territory by force since nearly three decades of international mediation hasn’t yielded progress.

Russia, the United States and France have co-chaired the so-called Minsk Group set up by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to mediate in the conflict, but their attempts to negotiate a political settlement have stalled.

Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinian said Wednesday that Azerbaijan’s aggressive stance effectively amounts to the demand that the Nagorno-Karabakh region surrenders, leaving no room for diplomacy.

“There is no way now to settle the Nagorno-Karabakh issue through diplomacy,” Pashinian said, emphasizing that “there is no Armenia without Nagorno-Karabakh.”

Aliyev retorted in an interview Wednesday that “with this Armenian government, unfortunately, the prospect for a peaceful settlement is very remote.”

According to Nagorno-Karabakh officials, 900 of their troops have been killed, and more than 30 civilians. Azerbaijan hasn’t disclosed its military losses, but says 63 civilians have died and 292 have been wounded.

Putin, speaking Thursday during a video conference with international foreign policy experts, said Russia has information indicating that the combined death toll from the latest outbreak of fighting neared 5,000.

“No one is interested in settling the situation as much as Russia,” he said, pointing at Moscow’s close ties with both Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Russia, which has a military base in Armenia and a security pact obliging Moscow to protect its ally, has been involved in a delicate balancing act, trying to also maintain good ties with Azerbaijan and avoid a showdown with Turkey.

“For us, Armenia and Azerbaijan are equal partners, and it’s a huge tragedy for us to see people die,” Putin said.

The Armenian prime minister accused Turkey of encouraging Azerbaijan’s attack on Nagorno-Karabakh and blocking any attempt at a cease-fire.

Turkey, a NATO member, has strongly defended its ally’s right to reclaim its lands by force, and jockeyed for a higher-profile diplomatic role in the conflict. Strike drones and long-range rocket systems supplied by Turkey in previous years have given the Azerbaijani military a strong edge on the battlefield.

Turkish Vice President Fuat Oktay warned Wednesday that Ankara won’t hesitate to send troops to Azerbaijan if such a request is made by Baku.

“Azerbaijan and Turkey have agreements on military cooperation,” he said on CNN Turk. “ If Armenia takes unexpected steps and there is a request from Baku to send troops, Turkey will not hesitate.”

While Russia and Turkey disagree about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Putin emphasized strong ties between Moscow and Ankara.

A Russian lawmaker, Konstantin Zatulin, argued Thursday that Moscow should intervene militarily to protect Armenia, but the Kremlin dismissed the call.

Asked about Zatulin’s statement, Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, responded that “there is no alternative to a peaceful settlement.”

Commenting on Turkey’s clamoring for a bigger mediation role in the conflict, Peskov said that such mediation must be accepted by both warring parties. Armenia has categorically rejected Turkey’s involvement because of its support for Azerbaijan.

___

Associated Press writers Vladimir Isachenkov in Moscow, and Aida Sultanova in London, contributed to this report.

[MillerEP 30,450]

Armenia is losing, so they're asking Russia to come in and help:

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/11/01/armenia-wants-russias-help-vs-azerbaijan-nagorno-karabakh-fight/6113917002/?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email
Armenia, Azerbaijan accuse each other of breaking vow not to target civilians in Nagorno-Karabakh fighting
Associated Press

YEREVAN, Armenia – Armenia’s leader urged Russia on Saturday to consider providing security assistance to end more than a month of fighting over Nagorno-Karabakh, and both sides in the hostilities accused each other of breaking a mutual pledge not to target residential areas hours after it was made.

The fighting represents the biggest escalation in decades in a long conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the separatist territory. As Azerbaijani troops pushed farther into Nagorno-Karabakh, Prime Minister Nikol Pashinian asked Russian President Vladimir Putin to quickly discuss possible security aid to Armenia.

There was no immediate response from the Kremlin.

Russia, which has a military base in Armenia and has signed a pact obliging it to protect its ally in case of foreign aggression, faces a delicate balancing act, of trying to also maintain good ties with Azerbaijan and avoid a showdown with Turkey.

Pashinian’s request puts Russia in a precarious position: joining the fighting would be fraught with unpredictable consequences and risk an open conflict with Turkey, while refusing to offer protection to its ally Armenia would dent Moscow’s prestige.

Nagorno-Karabakh lies within Azerbaijan but has been under the control of ethnic Armenian forces backed by Armenia since a war there ended in 1994. The latest outburst of hostilities began Sept. 27 and left hundreds – perhaps thousands – dead, marking the worst escalation of fighting since the war’s end.

The foreign ministers of Armenia and Azerbaijan met Friday in Geneva for a day of talks brokered by Russia, the United States and France, co-chairs of the so-called Minsk Group of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe that tries to mediate the decades-long conflict.

The talks concluded close to midnight with the two sides agreeing they “will not deliberately target civilian populations or non-military objects in accordance with international humanitarian law.”

But shortly after the mutual pledge was announced by the Minsk Group co-chairs, Nagorno-Karabakh authorities accused Azerbaijani forces of firing rockets at a street market and a residential building in the separatist region’s capital, Stepanakert. They said that residential areas in the town of Shushi also came under Azerbaijani shelling.

In Stepanakert, shop owners came to their stalls to collect their merchandise and clear the debris after the shelling.

“It seems they reached these agreements, but there is no truce at all,” said Karen Markaryan, a shop owner. “People don’t believe these empty words. And what will happen next is only known to God.”

Azerbaijan’s defense ministry denied targeting civilian areas, and in turn accused Armenian forces of shelling several regions of Azerbaijan.

The rapid failure of the latest attempt to contain the fighting follows the collapse of three successive cease-fires. A U.S.-brokered truce frayed immediately after it took effect Monday, just like two previous cease-fires negotiated by Russia. The warring sides have repeatedly blamed each other for violations.

Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev has insisted that Azerbaijan has the right to reclaim its territory by force after three decades of fruitless international mediation. He said that Armenia must pledge to withdraw from Nagorno-Karabakh as a condition for a lasting truce.

Azerbaijani troops, which have relied on strike drones and long-range rocket systems supplied by Turkey, have reclaimed control of several regions on the fringes of Nagorno-Karabakh and pressed their offensive into the separatist territory from the south.

On Thursday, Nagorno-Karabakh’s separatist leader said Azerbaijani troops had advanced to within 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of the strategically located town of Shushi just south of the region’s capital, Stepanakert, which sits on the main road linking Nagorno-Karabakh with Armenia.

With Azerbaijani troops moving deeper into Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenia’s prime minister made his first public plea for Russia’s assistance since the latest fighting started.

While Pashinian stopped short of directly asking Moscow to intervene militarily, he asked Putin to conduct “urgent consultations” on the “type and amount” of assistance that Russia could offer to ensure the security of Armenia. The Armenian leader argued that the fighting is raging increasingly close to the border of Armenia and pointed at alleged attacks on the Armenian territory, according to a statement released by his office.

During more than a month of fighting, Armenia and Azerbaijan have repeatedly accused each other of taking the fighting beyond Nagorno-Karabakh. Each side has denied the opposite claims.

Retired Lt. Gen. Yevgeny Buzhisnky, the former chief of the Russian Defense Ministry’s international cooperation department, said Moscow would stay away from the conflict.

“I exclude the Russian military’s involvement,” Buzhinsky was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency. “Azerbaijan is far too important for Russia to wage a war against it and Turkey.”

He noted that Azerbaijan has tried to avoid hitting Armenian territory, so “there is no reason for the Russian military intervention.”

According to Nagorno-Karabakh officials, 1,166 of their troops and 39 civilians have been killed. Azerbaijani authorities haven’t disclosed their military losses, but say the fighting has killed at least 91 civilians and wounded 400. Putin said last week that, according to Moscow’s information, the actual death toll was significantly higher and nearing 5,000.

Armenia accused Azerbaijan of using white phosphorus munitions in fighting over forests close to residential areas. Armenian Foreign Minister Zohrab Mnatsakanyan put what he said was a short video of the attack on Twitter, saying it demonstrated Azerbaijan’s “total disrespect of its commitments, continued aggression, devastation of civilian population and use of banned weapons.”

Azerbaijan has denied the accusations of using the incendiary weapons.

[MillerEP 30,450]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/8/azerbaijan-says-it-seized-nakarno-karabakhs-2nd-largest-city

Azerbaijan says it seized Nagorno-Karabakh’s 2nd-largest city
But Armenian officials were quick to deny the claim that Shusha had been seized.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2,652]

2 hours ago, MillerEP said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/8/azerbaijan-says-it-seized-nakarno-karabakhs-2nd-largest-city

Azerbaijan says it seized Nagorno-Karabakh’s 2nd-largest city
But Armenian officials were quick to deny the claim that Shusha had been seized.

What a screwed up map.  Shocked that these two nations have territorial issues. 

[MillerEP 30,450]

Interesting turn of events. From 1440:

A Russia-backed truce went into effect in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region yesterday, with dozens of Russian peacekeepers arriving to mediate between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The move gives hope that the most recent cease-fire in the conflict, which has killed more than 1,000—including at least 140 civilians—and seen multiple previous cease-fires ignored.

The mountainous, 1,700-square-mile territory is symbolic of the deep division between the two neighbors (see map). The region is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, despite being predominantly ethnically Armenian and having practiced self-rule for more than three decades. Observers worried the violence might spiral into a larger regional war, pulling in Turkey, Iran, and Russia. See background on the conflict here. 

The agreement left many Armenians bitter—Azerbaijan will retain all captured territory, including the strategic town of Shusha. Violence erupted in the Armenian parliament when the deal was announced.

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Interesting article about the potential destruction of ancient Armenian cultural buildings, monuments, etc. in the disputed area.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cultural-heritage-in-the-crosshairs-once-more-11605731198?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_4&cx_artPos=0#cxrecs_s

Spoiler

Cultural Heritage in the Crosshairs Once More

The resolution to the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan leaves irreplaceable treasures in harm’s way.

 

 

By Christina Maranci

Nov. 18, 2020 3:26 pm ET

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A local resident kneels as he prays at the Holy Savior Ghazanchetsots Cathedral

PHOTO: STANISLAV KRASILNIKOV/ZUMA PRESS

Active combat in the 2020 Azerbaijani war against Nagorno-Karabakh (known as Artsakh to Armenians) may have recently ended, but Azeri aggression against the rich and irreplaceable cultural heritage of its indigenous Armenian people has only just begun.

For 20 years, I have studied the medieval Armenian architecture of Eastern Turkey (historically part of Armenia), including Ani, which was once an Armenian royal capital. Both Azerbaijan and Turkey have continuous, well-documented policies of destroying the Armenian cultural heritage found in their territories. Between 1997 and 2006, as a decade-long investigation revealed last year, Azerbaijan deliberately wiped Nakhichevan clean of its Armenian culture, destroying more than 89 medieval churches, 5,840 khachkars (carved cross-stones), and 22,000 historical tombstones. The video of Azerbaijan’s December 2005 destruction of Djulfa, which once was the world’s largest medieval Armenian cemetery and at its height housed 10,000 cross-stones, haunts Armenians to this day.

Now a critical moment in Armenian history confronts us. Ancient national treasures in Artsakh are at risk of complete erasure. Like its Turkish ally, Azerbaijan has eliminated hallmarks of native Armenian culture, destroying any monuments that might undermine the false narrative of ancient and exclusively Azerbaijani presence in the region.

While Russia may just have brought the war to a sudden end, the intentions of Azerbaijan and Turkey have been clear since they began it on Sept. 27. Continuous shelling with cluster bombs and other artillery laid waste to homes, hospitals and schools. The aggression also targeted heritage sites, with the goal of demoralizing the Armenian people during battles in the short term and erasing their physical and cultural existence in the long.

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As a clear example, just one month ago, Azerbaijani forces launched two intentional assaults on the Holy Savior Ghazanchetsots Cathedral, causing significant damage. Located in Shushi, the cultural capital of Artsakh, the cathedral is a masterpiece of 19th-century Armenian architecture and a landmark of Armenian cultural and religious identity. Under the Russian deal, Shushi, along with many other regions of Artsakh, will fall under the control of Azerbaijan.

 

The Holy Savior Ghazanchetsots Cathedral in Shushi.

A local resident wipes a damaged religious icon at the Holy Savior Ghazanchetsots Cathedral.

A man holds an icon from the Dadivank, an Armenian Apostolic Church monastery dating to the 9th century.

The Dadivank

PHOTOS: STANISLAV KRASILNIKOV/ZUMA PRESS(2); DMITRY LOVETSKY/ASSOCIATED PRESS; REUTERS

Because of this, thousands of monuments in Artsakh, most of which are much older than Holy Savior, will be vulnerable to the cultural erasure for which Azerbaijan is known. Some of the monuments date to as early as the fourth century, when Armenia became the first nation to establish Christianity as a state religion. These extraordinary architectural monuments feature ancient inscriptions, wall paintings, and sculpture. They are not only artistic and historic treasures, but also material proof of the long history of Armenians throughout the region. The bombings had also targeted pre-Christian archaeological sites and their precious artifacts.

What will happen to Amaras, which preserves a fifth-century mausoleum to an Armenian saint, the grandson of St. Gregory, the evangelizer of Armenia? What about the medieval khachkars of Artsakh, testimony to Armenia’s ancient Christian religion? With their carved inscriptions, they are veritable history books of Armenian settlement in the region. Or the church of Tzitzernavank, a rare intact Christian basilica from the fifth or sixth century? Or the many churches in the region of Hadrut, such as 13th-century Gtichavank? Will these be destroyed outright or, after scraping off the Armenian inscriptions, proclaimed “ancient Caucasian Albanian” monuments, as many Azerbaijani websites contend?

What will become of Dadivank, a large, picturesque monastery of the ninth to 13th centuries? Its conical roofs rise above surrounding woods, punctuating an extensive complex including a kitchen, refectory, winepress, library, a belltower housing exquisitely carved khachkars, and over 100 Armenian inscriptions. The cathedral, with its delicate exterior arcades, features sculpted portraits of princely donors, while the interior frescoes, recently renovated, show deep knowledge of Byzantine painting styles. Will the Russian peacekeepers currently occupying the site ensure Dadivank’s long-term protection?

Sites across Artsakh are now vulnerable to intentional destruction; once gone, they are gone forever. The loss of any single culture constitutes a harmful impoverishment of the heritage of all the nations of the world. It is imperative that Unesco, the International Council on Monuments and Sites, the Blue Shield, World Monuments Fund and other international organizations committed to the conservation and protection of cultural heritage sites immediately help safeguard and monitor these monuments while documenting them for posterity. Such a mission may require a United Nations Security Council resolution, as Azerbaijan is unlikely to agree voluntarily.

Every day that the international community stays silent and passive increases the likelihood that the world will lose these treasures—irreplaceable links to our common human past.

—Ms. Maranci is a professor of Armenian art and architecture at Tufts University and consulted on the recent “Armenia!” exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of Art

 

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Flaring back up:

Armenia loses positions in deadly border clash (msn.com)

A number of people have been killed and wounded in a flare-up of violence on the Armenian border with Azerbaijan.

Armenia's defence ministry confirmed the losses. Officials said two combat positions had been lost and that it had asked Russia to help defend its territorial sovereignty.

Azerbaijan made big gains in a six-week war fought last year over the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Tensions have remained since the conflict ended in a shaky peace deal.

Armenia blamed Azerbaijani troops for the latest outbreak of fighting, and Azerbaijan said its forces had responded to an Armenian attack on its positions.

According to Armenia's foreign ministry, Azerbaijani forces attacked the eastern border as part of a policy that began in May aimed at infiltrating two Armenian areas, Syunik in the south-east and Gegharkunik in the east.

The government in Yerevan has appealed to Russia and the rest of the international community to help secure a withdrawal of Azerbaijani forces.

The November 2020 peace deal, brokered by Russia, came after a war in which more than 6,000 people were killed. Some 2,000 Russian peacekeepers were deployed to patrol the area in and around Nagorno-Karabakh.

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And it looks like it’s finally over officially. A 30-year war in the making went out not with a bang but a whimper. Russia wasn’t there to play their mind games/both sides. The 2020 conflict and subsequent blockade reduced the separatists from any meaningful way of mounting a military response so they had to capitulate.