America is a center right country?

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

So, 

I ripped this statement off from Bates Horn on the Trump vs Biden thread b/c I think it's the dominant question that will need to be answered over the next couple election cycles that will answer the question of where do we go from here and what does that look like. I didn't want to talk about this on that thread b/c it's not really about the 2020 election, it's not a horserace thing, and it's more esoteric (but will affect future horse races, bigly).   

I've always been of the opinion that this was true, growing up, and I'm pretty sure it was true then. The GOP controlled the White House from 1968-1992 with only a 4 year absence, where they lost a close-ish race, running in the shadow of the Nixon scandal.  Though the FDR coalition controlled Congress on the Dem side you could see that it wasn't liberal control, and then New Gingrich and 1994 happened, Bill Clinton talked about the era of big government being over, and W was elected president and the GOP had Congress and all it's branches.  If you wanted to argue that America was anything other than a center right country you'd have a really hard time doing so, and I don't think there would be any electoral support for that.

I don't think I believe that this is true anymore.  The GOP has received the most votes in a presidential election just one time since 1992- which now encompasses 7 races- soon to be 8.  They've had control of Congress as a backlash against Obama in some places, but they've pissed that away in 2006 and then again in 2018 for who knows how long.  Obama was the most liberal talking and sounding guy to be elected since- who? FDR?  He wasn't a white southern governor which was the only guys who could win the white house dating back 50 years for the Dems.  Electorally, it's a mixed bag right now but you see places like VA, CO, NV going from blue to red forevermore and have to say to yourself- self- something is up.  

Now- which party wins an election isn't necessarily dispositive of whether we are center right or center left (Hi BOZO- you still reading? I'm channeling what you say over and over and over and over again here) but it's going to at least point us a certain way and I don't think it should be ignored. So- I think we are moving left- we are maybe left of center now? As the body politic?

But, I don't know. Dems just had 19 people run for president and they nominated the guy considered the most moderate (or moderate sounding) on the stage.  Was that a last gasp before getting really progressive b/c of the fear of losing again to the Donald?  Or is this where the Dems want to be as a party?  What does it say going forward.  

What's this all mean for the future?  I have some thoughts that aren't fully formed yet, and am interested in yours.

Bates horn is right and America is a center right country.  We elect Biden.  The following happens:

1) Dems get done as much as they can in the next two years.  There's a backlash. Dems lose major gound in the house, and stay at parity in the Senate (the 2022 Senate map is beautiful for them). Lots of former GOP voters come home and say- hey we- wanted Trump gone but we didn't want this.  

2) Dems get as much done as they can in the next two years.  People like Brisket and Longhorn Lawyer don't come back to the GOP. But, they aren't comfortable.  They dig in to their new party and start trying to prune away at what they aren't comfortable with and make the party a little more conservative

3) Dems get nothing done b/c they don't have workable margins. They go to the American people in 2022 and ask for more so they can have a mandate but don't get it.  It stays the same balance, more or less- and nothing much changes

4) Dems get a bunch of stuff done.  Way more than lots of Biden voters were comfortable with. But, they still hate Trump so they won't vote GOP.  They lose in the primaries but stick with the Dems. The Country is governed by the liberals, the Dems keep winning elections, but you have big time numbers of "wrong track" voters that are unhappy with trajectory but not enough to shift back to the party of Trump.

 

Bates Horn is wrong and we are a Center left country:

5) Dems get as much done as they can.  They don't lose the house, pick up the Senate seats they ought to and then run as progressive as they can and win.  They get lots of stuff done. Not everything they want.  they win election after election after election from now into the future. 

6) Like #5 but the country gets too far left for some people politcally especially in fly over states, and the GOP maintains striking distance in the Senate moderating everything. No real chance for a GOP president but periodically the Dems go too far left and they get slapped back in the house and the Senate.  There are a lot of GOP governors in Blue states.  Nobody listens to anything they say on policy they are just there to play defense against the kookiest shit that the legislatures pass.

 

I'm sure I'm missing some stuff.  What say you?  Center Right? Center Left?  How does that play out electorally?

[Michael Knight 12898]

America is a consumer country and like all consumers they are easily swayed by advertising. Americans by and large support things like healthcare, human rights, social services, justice and welfare. But for the past 30 years one sides messaging has been how bad all those things are for your pocket book and their freedoms while the other side is too chicken shit to lose the argument so they move farther and farther right in appeasement. We're a fat greedy stupid and frightened people.

[Captainant 27463]

Our country is separating migrant children from their parents to act as a deterrent to scare other people away. 

That's pretty fucking far right my dude. 

The overton window is extremely far to the right. That's why Biden, a centrist corporate dem, is being labelled as a radical leftist socialist by the republican party. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

as compared to every other western democracy, we are extremist right.

[TexArcher 37518]

I believe that America is mostly a centrist nation.  A moderate Democrat and a moderate Republican have more in common with each other than each has with a hardcore liberal and a hardcore conservative respectively.  They agree on much more than they disagree on, and if a Centrist Party were allowed to exist it would never lose an election, which is exactly why it isn't allowed to exist.

So are we center-right or center-left as a people?  It fluctuates from generation to generation.  But we're always mostly center.  

But our political parties must pull centrists to the right or to the left to win elections.  Then they govern accordingly, to give us what they convinced us we wanted.

It's such a fucked up system that we can't even tell what the actual majority of Americans wants because it is so completely irrelevant.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

America is a country built on a foundation of white supremacy, genocide, and military hegemony that we still haven’t exactly overcome.  We’re a few klicks away from a fundamentalist Christian Gilead run by a handful of incel billionaires that would love nothing more than to build a spaceship and rule earth from Mars. 

Compared to other developed societies of western civilization with a similar background, we are among the furthest to the right but our long term progression has been inching to the left every 80 years or so. 
 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

10 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

as compared to every other western democracy, we are extremist right.

THIS.  You can’t define America’s ideological position without comparing to similar societies.

[elfenix 34171]

the US as a whole is more left than its political makeup.  the right is much better at sloganeering and creating moral panics than the left which, combined with how the system is set up to entrench wealthy countermajoritarian power, explains why the political makeup is pretty far right.

[David Dennison 18658]

America isn't necessarily center right, but its constitution is absolutely reactionary.

Edited October 14, 2020 by David Dennison

[Bama Chick 28596]

The American people are center left.

The American government - due to shitty outdated “constitutional rules” - is right wing.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

26 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

The American people are center left.

I feel like I have to push back on this perception b/c the American people are precisely wherever we allow the government to be. Yes, the political system is rigged against the population but it’s ultimately the responsibility of the population to un-rig it. 

If we were asking where Saudi Arabia, Russia, or China falls on the ideological spectrum we would be defining them by exactly where their governments are and not where we imagine their populations want to be.  

Edited October 14, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

22 minutes ago, elfenix said:

the US as a whole is more left than its political makeup.  the right is much better at sloganeering and creating moral panics than the left which, combined with how the system is set up to entrench wealthy countermajoritarian power, explains why the political makeup is pretty far right.

So- if you are correct (and I think you might be) do you see 5 happening?  6? Something else?

[hayden_horn 11360]

18 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

The American people are center left.

The American government - due to shitty outdated “constitutional rules” - is right wing.

no offense, maam, but this is simply untrue. 

i'll expound on my earlier thoughts, using i guess the uk as an example. their conservative party would basically be "center left" democrats here. 

what are the major issues facing our country?

abortion/women's health issues? uk is decidedly more liberal.

universal healthcare? for decades and decades in the uk. (had to look it up, the nhs started in 194fucking8!)

guns/gun control? by uk standards we are the wild fucking west. i'm voting straight ticket democrat and i own multiple firearms!

gay marriage? they got there in 2014.

employment law? we still at will employment, because of our "free market"

maternity leave? we are only coming close to what the uk has offered for years and years by law

i mean, i can go on and on and on. we are nowhere near a center left nation compared to our peers in europe and north america (namely canada). our progressivism lags other western democracies by DECADES. biden wouldn't even be labour in the uk, he'd probably be a tory. we are an extremely right leaning nation.

now, by our own standards, we can consider ourselves middle of the road, center right occasionally lurching left and granting a long-overdue right or law of some kind, but we are decidedly, by any objective metric, far right as compared not only to western democracies, but most modern global democracies. it really isn't arguable.

Edited October 14, 2020 by hayden_horn

[elfenix 34171]

30 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

So- if you are correct (and I think you might be) do you see 5 happening?  6? Something else?

i don't know if 5 can happen because of the way the system is set up.  retaining the senate is difficult for democrats because the senate represents areas rather than populations.  6 could happen because the right will sloganeer things like the left packing the court by creating spaces into changing the rules of the game, but the left probably has to pack the courts to overcome an unelected tribunal of countermajoritarian oligarchs doing what countermajoritarian oligarchs do, which is protecting wealthy entrenched interests.  i don't know that you get a large number of GOP governors in blue states, but you will get some.  there's a reason governor's races in many states aren't the same as presidential years, and some aren't even in congressional years. 

maybe if the dems can get enough of a hold in the senate this time around and abolish the filibuster and actually get some things done without the country going to shit, the 2022 senate map has 12 democrats and 22 republicans up (along with this years AZ and GA special elections, so likely 13 and 23), with 2 of those republicans already announcing retirement in PA and NC.  get some shit done for the middle of the country and dems might pick up pennsylvania, wisconsin, ohio, north carolina, missouri or even iowa.  that could turn be a defensible map for a long time to come for the democrats. but it relies on getting shit done and addressing the needs and concerns of the average joe who wants to know that he'll have a job when the coal plant closes.  but you can't just tell them that, you have to go out and get those jobs made.

but americans are fickle as shit and susceptible to astroturfing like the koch brothers funding tea party in 2010 and whatever the fuck happened in 1994.

30 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

abortion/women's health issues? uk is decidedly more liberal.

we're actually left of the UK on that. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by elfenix

[Bateshorn 9903]

My first reaction to this thread (j/k, I’ll try to weigh in tomorrow):

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Bateshorn

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

If you want my prediction of what will happen with a Biden administration, it ain’t good so I’m going to spoiler it.  Do not read until after election. 

Nothing will fundamentally change, Republicans will double down on far right extremism/culture war nonsense because it’s the only thing they have that works, the left will get complacent, and we get more fascism with a friendly face. 

I want to be wrong, I really do, but our elected officials have done a horrible job of representing the will or needs of the people my entire life.  They have almost entirely ignored the conditions that allowed Trump to happen.  Unless Biden goes big dick FDR on policy (he won’t), we’re going to get another round of Trump and Trump lites.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

You need to qualify weather you mean the populous or those in power

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

whether.

[gmr548 16513]

America has been a center right country. That was with boomers as the dominant voting bloc.

Not going to remain the case for much longer. Already not the case in the overall population but takes time to be reflected in the electorate (which is already solidly democratic leaning)

Millenials are liberal and gen z makes us look like fucking trumpkins. It's just a matter of (not much) time.

[hpslugga 4044]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

as compared to every other western democracy, we are extremist right.

Well I think one point of clarification has to come up:

While we're fancying labels, are we fancying them for the population or are we fancying them for the government?

If it's the government, what you said is absolutely correct. If it's the population, it's absolutely wrong.

[tantric superman 4667]

I think we are center left/full retard.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

39 minutes ago, Doc Reeves said:

You need to qualify weather you mean the populous or those in power

I mean the populous. At some point that has some affect on the people in power pushing one way or another,  it the correlation isn’t 1. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

20 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

America has been a center right country. That was with boomers as the dominant voting bloc.

Not going to remain the case for much longer. Already not the case in the overall population but takes time to be reflected in the electorate (which is already solidly democratic leaning)

Millenials are liberal and gen z makes us look like fucking trumpkins. It's just a matter of (not much) time.

That’s my take. 

[Blotto 23434]

2 hours ago, Michael Knight said:

We're a fat greedy stupid and frightened people.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Our tax dollars pay to incarcerate more of our population than any other country on earth, much of this is done for profit. 

The number one voting issue is basic healthcare coverage, a right to survive illness without the liability of financial ruin that is somehow directly connected to employment. Also, we have the highest cost of healthcare in the world and it’s not close. 

Our foreign policy is mostly run by the military and operates under a general philosophy of “do what we want or we’ll fucking kill you.” 

Our higher education system has become an overpriced scam that buries high school kids in debt for their entire lives. 

Parents are paying as much for basic childcare as it costs to put a kid through college. 

We have more gun violence deaths per 100,000 than anywhere in the Middle East. 

One out of every four people in the world that dies via drug overdose are in the United States, by far the highest globally. 

We might not do a good job of taking care of each other but we do create excellent value for shareholders. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

as compared to every other western democracy, we are extremist right.

Prior to WW2, we were middle of the road, but the road was pretty shitty worldwide. The rest of the western world may have moved left after WW2 because they lost a significant amount of men and women began to make up a significant portion of their voting bases.  They also fought to overcome their prejudices that led them to WW2 with varying levels of success. 

We, on the other hand, are incapable of looking inward and understanding our own flaws, much less fixing them.  So we are still run by the same white male oligarchy that always ran us, but really that oligarchy is only interested in their own selfish interests. The only thing that really saves us is an extremely selfish individualism that is uniquely American.  Even American white supremacists care far more about looking out for number 1 than their shitty cause. Same with evangelicals. Because of that, we will likely be saved from neo-nazism or Gilead, but we will also be unable to protect the environment, slow pandemics, or even maintain basic safety standards for anything long term.  We are a failed state, but we are a failed state that is difficult to rule.

Trump is actually our perfect representative. He is overwhelmingly selfish and wants others to do his dirty work for him. All his followers are the same, but want him to do the dirty work. So you get some lone shooters, and some ragtag plots against governors from basement dwellers,  but you don't get much real organization.  Really, even our LEOs are rent seeking selfish individualists.

Edited October 15, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[staboner 4959]

America has been (for lack of a better term) the most 'free' place for some time. No real wars, limited problems and conflict, this type of shit mixed with a relatively strong and stable economy. 

To say we are Something is missing the point a bit IMO. We are a lot of things actually. Extremely conservative one hand, very liberal on the next. Just depends on what fragment of society you are commenting on. That is all coming to a head now as we know. 

Countries with many natural enemies, more disasters, shitty economies, etc have a stronger unity on their national identity than we do. the loss of the cold war just took it to 11. 

Freedom ain't free

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by staboner

[staboner 4959]

And while Europe is viewed as much more left than the US, its important to understand thats a timestamp that is directly related to two world wars that touched and fucked up every country there. 

Europe would be better off shifting to a more healthy right of sorts and getting pro business. That is already happening, but it sadly comes with the unhealthy stuff like racism and nationalism. And the US would be better if we shifted to a parliamentary style government with more parties, etc and went a bit more left and tried to level up some of the holes in our society. 

But of course we are human and generally to blinded by our own lives and limitations to think structurally like that. Systems don't change, they fail. And the jaded hearts of people make sure that will always be the way. 

Vote Quimby!

 

[TwiceHorn 31280]

42 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Prior to WW2, we were middle of the road, but the road was pretty shitty worldwide. The rest of the western world may have moved left after WW2 because they lost a significant amount of men and women began to make up a significant portion of their voting bases.  They also fought to overcome their prejudices that led them to WW2 with varying levels of success. 

We, on the other hand, are incapable of looking inward and understanding our own flaws, much less fixing them.  So we are still run by the same white male oligarchy that always ran us, but really that oligarchy is only interested in their own selfish interests. The only thing that really saves us is an extremely selfish individualism that is uniquely American.  Even American white supremacists care far more about looking out for number 1 than their shitty cause. Same with evangelicals. Because of that, we will likely be saved from neo-nazism or Gilead, but we will also be unable to protect the environment, slow pandemics, or even maintain basic safety standards for anything long term.  We are a failed state, but we are a failed state that is difficult to rule.

Trump is actually our perfect representative. He is overwhelmingly selfish and wants others to do his dirty work for him. All his followers are the same, but want him to do the dirty work. So you get some lone shooters, and some ragtag plots against governors from basement dwellers,  but you don't get much real organization.  

I will add to this that we came out of WWI better off than most of the long-term combatants.  We were also more geographically separated from Soviet Russia.  Therefore, socialism never quite got the foothold here that it did in Europe.  Not to mention our class differences were less pronounced, if maybe equally as existent as most of monarchical Europe.

That fact alone probably accounts for the "rightness" if any of the US.

We obviously came out of WWII better than everyone.  And our economic hegemony made us a complacent and coddled people, culminating in the self-interest of the 60s, which exacerbated and accelerated the complacency into the no-sacrifice, imma get mine culture that has pervaded America since.  And the lack of community that goes along with it.

It's ironic that the burst of liberal ideas that flourished briefly in the 60s got so turned upside down by the people that promoted/adhered to them.

The right wing political interests remained partially occupied with the Cold War and capitalistic depredations and exploitations often happened abroad rather than at home.  Capitalists and the military industrial complex learned to operate abroad largely without rules and learned new forms of ratfucking  When the cold war ended, all of that turned largely domestic.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

15 minutes ago, staboner said:

America has been (for lack of a better term) the most 'free' place for some time. No real wars, limited problems and conflict, this type of shit mixed with a relatively strong and stable economy. 

To say we are Something is missing the point a bit IMO. We are a lot of things actually. Extremely conservative one hand, very liberal on the next. Just depends on what fragment of society you are commenting on. That is all coming to a head now as we know. 

Countries with many natural enemies, more disasters, shitty economies, etc have a stronger unity on their national identity than we do. the loss of the cold war just took it to 11. 

Freedom ain't free

 

Great post. 

[TwiceHorn 31280]

5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Great post. 

Indeed it is.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

28 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I will add to this that we came out of WWI better off than most of the long-term combatants.  We were also more geographically separated from Soviet Russia.  Therefore, socialism never quite got the foothold here that it did in Europe.  Not to mention our class differences were less pronounced, if maybe equally as existent as most of monarchical Europe.

That fact alone probably accounts for the "rightness" if any of the US.

We obviously came out of WWII better than everyone.  And our economic hegemony made us a complacent and coddled people, culminating in the self-interest of the 60s, which exacerbated and accelerated the complacency into the no-sacrifice, imma get mine culture that has pervaded America since.  And the lack of community that goes along with it.

The right wing political interests remained partially occupied with the Cold War and capitalistic depredations and exploitations often happened abroad rather than at home.  When the cold war ended, all of that turned largely domestic.

 

This is true too and the worlds destruction also allowed us to position ourselves as the global "front office" so that other countries could be our "lower class" while we wouldn't have to worry about their welfare.  After Europe and Japan were rebuilt, we later shifted that burden to countries like China.  And we now pretend like we used to pay miners and seamstresses a living wage but we never did.  So we didn't really care about outsourcing until it started to hit higher wage manufacturing jobs. And now of course, we have come close to the endgame on that model, and our middle class is being eaten alive because of it.  But we still sell ourselves on the belief that 1950s America, exporter to the world who has to buy our stuff just because they do, is even possible today. 

The solution is European socialism, and not this ridiculous coupling of laissez faire economics with ethnonationalism.  No amount of deportations is going to make Ford reopen a factory in some meth riddled dying town.   But socialism can reopen that factory if that is what we really want to do.  

Also, I think we are center left and have been since the 70s. The EC and Senate cause the political center to be center right, but the people aren't.  I also dont know that we are actually more polarized as an electorate. We have always been polarized. Cletus always hated big city lawyers, but he used to vote for people that would work with other people to govern. The big difference now is that the right has been electing polarized politicians. The left has only just started doing the same in response.  The shitshow has only just begun. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[elfenix 34171]

trade is overblown as a reason for post-WW2 economic expansion.  exports were basically flat for the first decade after the war.  imports didn't do much either.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by elfenix

[FondrenRoad 4378]

13 minutes ago, elfenix said:

trade is overblown as a reason for post-WW2 economic expansion.  exports were basically flat for the first decade after the war. 

 

Perhaps. But they also more than doubled according to your graph. 

But I did also fail to mention that America had its own forced lower class that wasn't truly able to make it past menial jobs. And very few, if any, of the descendants of that forced lower class believe that America was a great place to be in the 50s.  The larger point being that it's easy to be middle class if you have a lower class, be it African Americans or outsourced low wage earners, that are unable to get up off the floor.  All the 50s white guy needed to do was show up to work to succeed. He'd already be ahead of female coworkers that topped out at secretary and black coworkers that topped out at janitor. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[elfenix 34171]

10 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

But they also more than doubled according to your graph. 

exports in the immediate postwar economy peaked in 1947, which is also the low point of the post war economy.  exports were lower than that by 10+ billion until 1956