2020 NBA Offseason Thread (Abbreviated) -- Draft, Free Agency, Trades, etc

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

Presti also had two of the worst contracts in the league and got out of both of them.

It's not just that he got out of both of them, he turned them into assets. It's remarkable. Most of the time you have to include picks to get those contracts off your books. It's incredible.

[Aqua Buddha 14600]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

It's not just that he got out of both of them, he turned them into assets. It's remarkable. Most of the time you have to include picks to get those contracts off your books. It's incredible.

Plus he got SGA to go along with all the picks.

[Catdaddyhorn 3447]

50 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Presti also had two of the worst contracts in the league and got out of both of them.

In fairness Chris Paul turned himself into an asset for championship/success starved teams with his play last year. He only has this upcoming season and the following year on his "bad" contract. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[d2o 1602]

46 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Plus he got SGA to go along with all the picks.

SGA and now Oubre.    2 young guys that may turn out to be all-stars or close to it.

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, LTtxfan said:

Is this just the first part of a 3 team trade??  CP3 at age 35 to Phoenix doesn't seem like a great fit.

Thought CP3  would end up in LA with either Clippers or Lakers...

He will fit more than fine with them.   He clearly is not interested in ring chasing but cementing his legacy as a great leader/teammate and piece that can turn franchises around.    He's done it 3 different times now.   

[d2o 1602]

58 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I can't see why that wouldn't help. That's a young team that needs leadership and now Booker doesn't need to be so ball dominant. And if CP3 could make it work with Harden in Houston, for sure he can do it with Booker. Also, the happiest person in Phoenix should be Deandre Ayton. All those lobs that CP3 used to throw to Tyson Chandler and then Deandre Jordan off the screen are all coming his way. 

Sam Presti is doing work. My lord... Kelly Oubre really blossomed last season until he had a thumb injury that cost him the season -- but he averaged 19 and 6 before he got hurt. Rubio is a solid starting level pro with a not horrible contract. Ty Jerome was a first round pick last year and I don't really know anything about Jalen Lecque other than he's only 19 years old. But essentially. Presti got at a minimum a young rotation player in Oubre, a solid vet in Rubio, plus two first rounders (Jerome + 2022) and another young prospect to unload one of the worst contracts in the league.

Presti is a miracle worker. If you want to collect draft choices and do a "process" style reboot, that's how you fucking do it. While still making the playoffs, I might add.

Yep, and since they have SGA I could see them possibly moving Rubio again to a team looking to solidify their PG spot and maybe getting another pick or player.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Crazy how much Phoenix would give up for cp3 considering they just went 8-0 in the bubble. Dudes gonna be 36 in a 6 months.

[Aqua Buddha 14600]

38 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

In fairness Chris Paul turned himself into an asset for championship/success starved teams with his play last year. He only has this upcoming season and the following year on his "bad" contract. 

OKC also got a little lucky with the shortened season which kept Paul healthier than he otherwise would have been.

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, Aqua Buddha said:

OKC also got a little lucky with the shortened season which kept Paul healthier than he otherwise would have been.

Correct.    PHX's training staff does have a GREAT history of guys having physical rebirths but I would think after last season any team that takes him would have a plan to keep him down around 50-55 gms to try and keep him fresh for the playoffs.

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Crazy how much Phoenix would give up for cp3 considering they just went 8-0 in the bubble. Dudes gonna be 36 in a 6 months.

They went 8-0 w/o Oubre and CP3 is definite upgrade from Rubio and as I mentioned earlier every team he has joined has improved greatly.   Additionally, there were rumblings that Booker wanted out.   Doing whatever was necessary to bring in Paul should help quiet that.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

Been awhile since AB's played some good ball (back with the C's), but at 10-15 minutes a game guy, I assume the cost would be cheap.

Guy who really increased his value.... even in this year's depressed market.

 

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

This one is gonna have some twists and turns.....

 

[Radical Larry 28660]

[Radical Larry 28660]

[Radical Larry 28660]

Holy shit.

[BradInATX 9208]

Called that one 3 months ago. It was the best realistic move they could make. Draft picks aside it's a solid play if the assumption is NBA Finals required to keep Giannis.

[aggie08 21523]

Fuck you, ESPN. Moving Zach Lowe's content to ESPN+. Eat a dick.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

On what fucking planet is 30 year old Jrue Holiday with one year left on his contract worth 3 first round picks and two swaps? If he was that good, you would have thought he and Anthony Davis would have been enough to get New Orleans into contention. Or that they would want to keep him around to play with Zion. I get that they unload Eric Bledsoe's contract in the deal but my lord that move reeks of desperation. Those dipshits should have just stuck with Brogdan in the first place. 

[conVINCEd 21469]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

On what fucking planet is 30 year old Jrue Holiday with one year left on his contract worth 3 first round picks and two swaps? If he was that good, you would have thought he and Anthony Davis would have been enough to get New Orleans into contention. Or that they would want to keep him around to play with Zion. I get that they unload Eric Bledsoe's contract in the deal but my lord that move reeks of desperation. Those dipshits should have just stuck with Brogdan in the first place. 

I have thought Jrue was the perfect backcourt partner for Luka for over a year.  I read earlier today that the Mavs were out.  Now I know why.

[washparkhorn 9939]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

On what fucking planet is 30 year old Jrue Holiday with one year left on his contract worth 3 first round picks and two swaps? If he was that good, you would have thought he and Anthony Davis would have been enough to get New Orleans into contention. Or that they would want to keep him around to play with Zion. I get that they unload Eric Bledsoe's contract in the deal but my lord that move reeks of desperation. Those dipshits should have just stuck with Brogdan in the first place. 

It's a vibe. 

Nice trade for both teams. Damn NOP is legit. And maybe Jrue is the missing piece for Giannis. 

Busy week for the NBA.

[washparkhorn 9939]

7 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Been awhile since AB's played some good ball (back with the C's), but at 10-15 minutes a game guy, I assume the cost would be cheap.

Guy who really increased his value.... even in this year's depressed market.

 

Grant was expected to decline so he can sign a bigger contract. He fits and is expected to get paid by DEN. Horace Grant's little boy is damn good. 

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

16 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

On what fucking planet is 30 year old Jrue Holiday with one year left on his contract worth 3 first round picks and two swaps? If he was that good, you would have thought he and Anthony Davis would have been enough to get New Orleans into contention. Or that they would want to keep him around to play with Zion. I get that they unload Eric Bledsoe's contract in the deal but my lord that move reeks of desperation. Those dipshits should have just stuck with Brogdan in the first place. 

All about appeasing the Freak and him signing his supermax.  If this makes that a reality, then it's worth it.  But yea, on the whole, Jrue isn't that much better than Bledsoe.  And they gave up 3 firsts too....

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

And Bogdonovich goes to Milwaukee too. This move makes more sense. That dude plays with some balls, which this team needs badly. 

[BradInATX 9208]

But yea, on the whole, Jrue isn't that much better than Bledsoe. 

Yeah, he is. By a lot.

Holiday is one of the most underrated players (by fans.. the players know) in the league and Bledsoe is fucking terrible.

[BradInATX 9208]

6 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

On what fucking planet is 30 year old Jrue Holiday with one year left on his contract worth 3 first round picks and two swaps? If he was that good, you would have thought he and Anthony Davis would have been enough to get New Orleans into contention. Or that they would want to keep him around to play with Zion. I get that they unload Eric Bledsoe's contract in the deal but my lord that move reeks of desperation. Those dipshits should have just stuck with Brogdan in the first place. 

 

You are putting way too much value in very late first round picks. They're not going to be lottery picks. They can probably buy three picks in that range back in a year if high 20s picks are that important to them. There is an almost zero chance that those picks will match value of plus Holiday minus Bledsoe.

It's understandable that most fans don't understand how good Holiday is given nobody has cared about the Pelicans for a decade and that he was criminally misused for most of that time. But he is a very good player. He's all star caliber. And most importantly he's a perfect fit to shore up Milwaukee's fatal flaws that have cost them in the playoffs two years running.

If you get bored enough, go watch what Holiday did to Portland when the Pelicans swept them a few years back. If you designed a perfect 2 guard in a lab to combat modern offenses, it'd look a lot like Jrue.

Moving Hill also freed up the salary to get Bogdanovic, who is a floor spacer that they desperately need. End of the day they moved two minus players (Bledsoe and Hill) a young asset (DiVicenzo) and some practically 2nd rounders for an all star and another strong contributor. This will prove to be a great trade for the Bucks, provided they keep Giannis.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

42 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

 

Yeah, he is. By a lot.

Holiday is one of the most underrated players (by fans.. the players know) in the league and Bledsoe is fucking terrible.

 

Yeah I agree with this.   He way better than Bledsoe.   Also, the rumors are the Giannis will sign his supermax and stay.   If this is another move toward that even better.

Edited November 17, 2020 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

8 hours ago, Radical Larry said:

 

GREAT deal for HOU.   Get Ariza back AND get 2 firsts for a borderline starter in Covington.   

[Murfdogg21 4423]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

You are putting way too much value in very late first round picks. They're not going to be lottery picks. They can probably buy three picks in that range back in a year if high 20s picks are that important to them. There is an almost zero chance that those picks will match value of plus Holiday minus Bledsoe.

Sometimes what looks like some late first round picks at the time of the trade turns into lottery picks. See: Celtics owning Brooklyn picks from Pierce/Garnett; OKC owning Rockets pick in next couple years when Rockets go from perennial top 5 to shit factory overnight. 

[BradInATX 9208]

37 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Sometimes what looks like some late first round picks at the time of the trade turns into lottery picks. See: Celtics owning Brooklyn picks from Pierce/Garnett; OKC owning Rockets pick in next couple years when Rockets go from perennial top 5 to shit factory overnight. 

Sure, that's fair. It's pretty unlikely though, unless Giannis leaves. Giannis in the East alone is enough to get you a pick in the 20s.

I'm working under the assumption that Giannis has been working in good faith with the Bucks this offseason and telling him what his expectations are. I expect that after these moves the next thing we'll hear out of Milwaukee is that Giannis signed a supermax. Can't imagine they made these moves without feedback from Giannis.

[Wulaw Horn 19147]

Bucks should have traded for CP3. Holiday deal is ok I guess. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Sometimes what looks like some late first round picks at the time of the trade turns into lottery picks. See: Celtics owning Brooklyn picks from Pierce/Garnett; OKC owning Rockets pick in next couple years when Rockets go from perennial top 5 to shit factory overnight. 

Pierce and Garnett were both 678608945 yrs old when that deal was made.   That was the problem.   They were mortgaging their future for two yrs tops.   Giannis is just getting to his prime.   MIL should be a high playoff team for the next 10 yrs barring catastrophe.   Those picks should always be very late in the first round

[d2o 1602]

42 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Sure, that's fair. It's pretty unlikely though, unless Giannis leaves. Giannis in the East alone is enough to get you a pick in the 20s.

I'm working under the assumption that Giannis has been working in good faith with the Bucks this offseason and telling him what his expectations are. I expect that after these moves the next thing we'll hear out of Milwaukee is that Giannis signed a supermax. Can't imagine they made these moves without feedback from Giannis.

Exactly.

 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

Exactly.
 
 

There you go. I believe Giannis when he puts himself forward as not being a superteam chaser. He's more Timmy D than LeBron personality wise. Love to see it.

I like it also because the historically unlikeable team of harden kyrie and durant is going to need a competent foil. Milwaukee is much better today than yesterday.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

There you go. I believe Giannis when he puts himself forward as not being a superteam chaser. He's more Timmy D than LeBron personality wise. Love to see it.

I like it also because the historically unlikeable team of harden kyrie and durant is going to need a competent foil. Milwaukee is much better today than yesterday.

Now they just need a bench

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

There you go. I believe Giannis when he puts himself forward as not being a superteam chaser. He's more Timmy D than LeBron personality wise. Love to see it.

I like it also because the historically unlikeable team of harden kyrie and durant is going to need a competent foil. Milwaukee is much better today than yesterday.

Yeah I never really thought he was leaving.   He has been adamant about not joining up.  You also have to look at his background.   Coming from where he did I never thought he was fascinated by the bright lights/big city stuff.

[BradInATX 9208]

Yeah I never really thought he was leaving.   He has been adamant about not joining up.  You also have to look at his background.   Coming from where he did I never thought he was fascinated by the bright lights/big city stuff.

As a Spurs fan it's nice to see a small market team hang on to their mega star.

Fuck you Kawhi.

[shadow_operative 15932]

9 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

On what fucking planet is 30 year old Jrue Holiday with one year left on his contract worth 3 first round picks and two swaps? If he was that good, you would have thought he and Anthony Davis would have been enough to get New Orleans into contention. Or that they would want to keep him around to play with Zion. I get that they unload Eric Bledsoe's contract in the deal but my lord that move reeks of desperation. Those dipshits should have just stuck with Brogdan in the first place. 

not to mention that he almost never stays healthy for a full year. outstanding defender, and honestly a really nice add if he was someone reliable, but he's heading into his 30's averaging 64 games played per season for his career. he's played more than 67 games 4 times in 11 seasons. they are giving up a ton for a guy who can't stay healthy. i guess time will tell if it was worth it or not.

Edited November 17, 2020 by shadow_operative

[d2o 1602]

 

 

[Catdaddyhorn 3447]

9 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

All about appeasing the Freak and him signing his supermax.  If this makes that a reality, then it's worth it.  But yea, on the whole, Jrue isn't that much better than Bledsoe.  And they gave up 3 firsts too....

 

Man I disagree, Bledsoe simply isn't any good.  And his lack of outside shooting makes him an even worse fit with Giannis. There's an argument to be made that George Hill is better than Bledsoe, especially alongside Giannis. 

[BradInATX 9208]

53 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Now they just need a bench

Yeah, but that was going to be a problem either way. I imagine they'll re-sign Robin Lopez to fill in some minutes. They can probably re-sign Korver for the minimum as a deep bench guy. They have an MLE available. And they'll have some options in the "ring chasing vets" category. 

IMO the next logical move is to use the MLE on the best 3 and D guy available, whoever that is. Jae Crowder would be a tremendous fit for them. Maybe Avery Bradley as a fallback. They have adequate shooting with Middleton Holiday and Bogdanovic, and an embarrassment of riches in terms of ball handling guards. Their ball movement should be great and the 4th and 5th guys on the floor will see a lot of open looks. Someone like Crowder who can knock those down and provide more defense than Korver did would be a big add. 

If you do that, suddenly you can hide Middleton on defense instead of having him get shredded by guys like Herro and Butler. You have the best defensive interior in basketball and individual man defense on the outside that can survive switches and the PnR. 

But the bench will be more shallow this year. I bet they'll lose more games in the regular season as they'll be less deep and they'll probably load manage Holiday a bit. These moves aren't for the regular season though, and they'll be stronger in the playoffs.

Plus, maybe only going 7-8 deep will force Bud to actually lean on his best players in the playoffs instead of giving Giannis 30 minutes per game while Marvin Williams plays 20 per game. 4d chess.

If Bud learns from his in-game roster management mistakes this team is going to be a problem in the playoffs. If Giannis takes the next step on offense, they will be a very serious problem. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

20 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Man I disagree, Bledsoe simply isn't any good.  And his lack of outside shooting makes him an even worse fit with Giannis. There's an argument to be made that George Hill is better than Bledsoe, especially alongside Giannis. 

Yep, yep and yep.  Bledsoe stinks.   At 16M/yr with 3 yrs left he is ATROCIOUS!!!   At least one of those picks was to get NO to take that contract.

Edited November 17, 2020 by d2o

[Catdaddyhorn 3447]

Unfortunately for Milwaukee they made their 84M Bledsoe offer about 6 months too early. I bet they wish they couldve done a do over with their decisions vis a vi Brogdon/Bledsoe. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

50 minutes ago, d2o said:

Pierce and Garnett were both 678608945 yrs old when that deal was made.   That was the problem.   They were mortgaging their future for two yrs tops.   Giannis is just getting to his prime.   MIL should be a high playoff team for the next 10 yrs barring catastrophe.   Those picks should always be very late in the first round

You just never know when the injury bug strikes. I haven't been able to find anything on the protections on the picks, so that may change my opinion of the trade a bit, but I still think they gave up too much. 

The other thing that is going to be important on all of these picks is that in the very near future (I think 2022), they are going to do away with the one and done rule. When they do, there is going to be an influx of talent from both high school seniors and one and done college players -- essentially a draft with 2x the talent. In that draft, those late round picks are going to be worth a shitload more than a normal pick. 

[BradInATX 9208]

9 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Unfortunately for Milwaukee they made their 84M Bledsoe offer about 6 months too early. I bet they wish they couldve done a do over with their decisions vis a vi Brogdon/Bledsoe. 

Definitely one of the poorer decisions in the last few years by a contender. But they seem to have gotten out from under it pretty competently. 

[Murfdogg21 4423]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Pierce and Garnett were both 678608945 yrs old when that deal was made.   That was the problem.   They were mortgaging their future for two yrs tops.   Giannis is just getting to his prime.   MIL should be a high playoff team for the next 10 yrs barring catastrophe.   Those picks should always be very late in the first round

Yeah you’d think. The Rockets probably thought they’d continue championship chasing with Harden for years to come when they emptied the pantry to get RW. For Milwaukee fans’ sake, hopefully Freak keeps his word. Otherwise he could be a FA and doesn’t Jrue only have one year left on his contract? MKE could theoretically be a dumpster in 2-3 years, especially because apparently star FA’s will only consider teams in NYC and LA now. 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Yeah you’d think. The Rockets probably thought they’d continue championship chasing with Harden for years to come when they emptied the pantry to get RW. For Milwaukee fans’ sake, hopefully Freak keeps his word. Otherwise he could be a FA and doesn’t Jrue only have one year left on his contract? MKE could theoretically be a dumpster in 2-3 years, especially because apparently star FA’s will only consider teams in NYC and LA now. 

I would think they wouldnt make the trade without some sort of confidence that Giannis stays.

[d2o 1602]

23 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

You just never know when the injury bug strikes. I haven't been able to find anything on the protections on the picks, so that may change my opinion of the trade a bit, but I still think they gave up too much. 

The other thing that is going to be important on all of these picks is that in the very near future (I think 2022), they are going to do away with the one and done rule. When they do, there is going to be an influx of talent from both high school seniors and one and done college players -- essentially a draft with 2x the talent. In that draft, those late round picks are going to be worth a shitload more than a normal pick. 

This is a possibility but what's more important, keeping Giannis now or what kid you may be able to pick in a few yrs?    And the latest report is that they may not end the one and done.  Gotta focus on now and figure the rest out later.

Edited November 17, 2020 by d2o

[shadow_operative 15932]

the one and done rule is going to go away, it's just a matter of how soon. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

This is a possibility but what's more important, keeping Giannis now or what kid you may be able to pick in a few yrs?    And the latest report is that they may not end the one and done.  Gotta focus on now and figure the rest out later.

For sure, you have to keep the MVP. I'm pretty sure he was going to sign that supermax regardless. But most importantly, I think they gave up too much for Holiday. I'm not sure he moves the needle enough for me and especially given that they are going to be handicapped with the pieces they put around Giannis going forward. And if Jrue doesn't work out and they can't compete, Giannis just has to go in and demand a trade like Harden is doing and the Bucks get to bend over and take it. Like NOLA did with Anthony Davis, the Spurs did with Kawhi, etc. NBA action.... it's FAAAAAAN-TASTIC!

As an aside, I also have PTSD from the Spurs dumping picks for guys like Kurt Thomas and Nazr Muhammed and then one day looking up at the roster and realizing how devoid of young talent and ancient everybody was. When they kept their picks, they did pretty well drafting late. If they don't draft and develop George Hill, then they can't trade up to get Kawhi Leonard. 

[BradInATX 9208]

Keep in mind that the Bucks can clear a ton of cap space in a couple of years by trading Middleton and Brook Lopez too, maybe even get some assets in return for a one-year rental and expiring. So if this iteration of the Bucks doesn't work out, they can re-tool pretty quickly. 

What they do with Holiday will be the tricky part. He's 30, so he's only got a couple of years left at his peak. Two years at $26mm left. 

But that goes back to being able to pivot pretty quickly. If they know it's not working, they can dump almost 70 million in salary and start over.

Edited November 17, 2020 by BradInATX