2020 NBA Offseason Thread (Abbreviated) -- Draft, Free Agency, Trades, etc

[d2o 1602]

16 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

For sure, you have to keep the MVP. I'm pretty sure he was going to sign that supermax regardless. But most importantly, I think they gave up too much for Holiday. I'm not sure he moves the needle enough for me and especially given that they are going to be handicapped with the pieces they put around Giannis going forward. And if Jrue doesn't work out and they can't compete, Giannis just has to go in and demand a trade like Harden is doing and the Bucks get to bend over and take it. Like NOLA did with Anthony Davis, the Spurs did with Kawhi, etc. NBA action.... it's FAAAAAAN-TASTIC!

As an aside, I also have PTSD from the Spurs dumping picks for guys like Kurt Thomas and Nazr Muhammed and then one day looking up at the roster and realizing how devoid of young talent and ancient everybody was. When they kept their picks, they did pretty well drafting late. If they don't draft and develop George Hill, then they can't trade up to get Kawhi Leonard. 

I hear ya.   If Holiday can put together a couple playoff series like he did against POR a few yrs back, he moves the needle greatly over what Bledsoe and Hill would/did.   Even if he doesn't, he is a better scorer than either and a better defender than either.   It does seem like a lot but even if falls through and they find that they have to trade Giannis they can recoup those picks

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Dumb point/count point question. If jrue made little to no noise with Anthony Davis, why would it be any different with Giannis?

[shadow_operative 15932]

Middleton is the guy who im nonplussed by. He is nowhere near a legit no.2 player on a championship contender, and yet he gets treated like he's Pippen, or AD, or D Wade or any one half of Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Robinson, Kobe/Shaq, or even bitchass Kyrie Irving when he was no.2 in CLE. He's a slightly better version of a young Joe Johnson, at best. Why Milwaukee decided that they didn't need Brogdon while crowning Middleton as their no.2 i will never understand, and regardless of what else they do, as long he's their no.2, or any part of a "Big 3", then i can't see Milwaukee even sniffing a title. If they had kept Brogdon and moved Middleton they'd be a helluva lot closer to a title than they are/have been since letting Brogdon go. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by shadow_operative

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

4 hours ago, BradInATX said:

 

 

Yeah, he is. By a lot.

Holiday is one of the most underrated players (by fans.. the players know) in the league and Bledsoe is fucking terrible.

 

 

4 hours ago, d2o said:

Yeah I agree with this.   He way better than Bledsoe.   Also, the rumors are the Giannis will sign his supermax and stay.   If this is another move toward that even better.

 

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Man I disagree, Bledsoe simply isn't any good.  And his lack of outside shooting makes him an even worse fit with Giannis. There's an argument to be made that George Hill is better than Bledsoe, especially alongside Giannis. 

So..... I absolutely get why folks think this and I prefer Jrue as well, mainly because he's a really good defender, but the numbers don't really bear this one out.  Now, playing with a better surrounding cast can often result in a player's bump in efficiency and sometimes shooting Bledsoe disappeared in the playoffs, so there's a need to account for this, but it's not a huge numbers difference.

Bledsoe is actually almost 30 though.

Advanced last year:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Eric Bledsoe	2019-20	30	61	1646	17.6	.571	.306	.304	2.8	13.5	8.5	28.7	1.6	1.4	15.7	23.7		2.4	3.0	5.4	.157		0.8	1.1	1.8	1.6
2	Jrue Holiday	2019-20	29	61	2117	17.0	.537	.344	.181	3.8	10.9	7.3	29.1	2.2	1.9	14.5	24.5		2.0	1.9	3.9	.088		1.6	0.2	1.8	2.0

Again, I'd rather have Jrue and if Giannas likes this and re-signs then it's all worth it, but some of the thought that Jrue is a vastly superior player doesn't really match up with the numbers and 3 point shooting certainly isn't a big gap if we look at the last 3 years.

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Dumb point/count point question. If jrue made little to no noise with Anthony Davis, why would it be any different with Giannis?

Lots of reasons. They did make noise a couple years ago when they swept Portland. But:

- Alvin Gentry is a terrible coach
- The Pelicans are a terrible organization whose GM that entire time was literally also the Saints football GM. 
- They had awful roster construction for most of Holiday's time there. Excluding a two year stint with DeMarcus Cousins (when they swept Portland as the 6th seed), the third best player on the team was either Tyreke Evans and Julius Randle, both of whom are terrible.
- Holiday has been grossly misused as a high-usage ball-handler. He needs to be a secondary ball handler and slasher/creator who occasionally spots up for a catch and shoot. He was forced into more of a hybrid PG/SG role because Lonzo Ball and Tyreke Evans are both shitty. 

I think you're going to see Holiday end up as a late career bloomer who shined and had the best years of his career once he got away from the Pelicans dogshit franchise. 

[BradInATX 9208]

12 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Middleton is the guy who im nonplussed by. He is nowhere near a legit no.2 player on a championship contender, and yet he gets treated like he's Pippen, or AD, or D Wade or any one half of Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Robinson, Kobe/Shaq, or even bitchass Kyrie Irving when he was no.2 in CLE. He's a slightly better version of a young Joe Johnson, at best. Why Milwaukee decided that they didn't need Brogdon while crowning Middleton as their no.2 i will never understand, and regardless of what else they do, as long he's their no.2, or any part of a "Big 3", then i can't see Milwaukee even sniffing a title. If they had kept Brogdon and moved Middleton they'd be a helluva lot closer to a title than they are/have been since letting Brogdon go. 

 

I agree and shared similar thoughts about Middleton even before the playoffs started last year when @Wulaw Horn called me crazy for thinking the Bucks were not a serious title contender. But Middleton is now their third best player and he's probably a good enough 3rd best player to be on a championship team.

 

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 

 

So..... I absolutely get why folks think this and I prefer Jrue as well, mainly because he's a really good defender, but the numbers don't really bear this one out.  Now, playing with a better surrounding cast can often result in a player's bump in efficiency and sometimes shooting Bledsoe disappeared in the playoffs, so there's a need to account for this, but it's not a huge numbers difference.

Bledsoe is actually almost 30 though.

Advanced last year:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Eric Bledsoe	2019-20	30	61	1646	17.6	.571	.306	.304	2.8	13.5	8.5	28.7	1.6	1.4	15.7	23.7		2.4	3.0	5.4	.157		0.8	1.1	1.8	1.6
2	Jrue Holiday	2019-20	29	61	2117	17.0	.537	.344	.181	3.8	10.9	7.3	29.1	2.2	1.9	14.5	24.5		2.0	1.9	3.9	.088		1.6	0.2	1.8	2.0

Again, I'd rather have Jrue and if Giannas likes this and re-signs then it's all worth it, but some of the thought that Jrue is a vastly superior player doesn't really match up with the numbers and 3 point shooting certainly isn't a big gap if we look at the last 3 years.

 

Do playoffs tho. I expect a lot of grumbling about the move during the regular season. Then the playoffs will come and everyone is going to be like "oh.. yeah, that makes sense now".

Edited November 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

17 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Dumb point/count point question. If jrue made little to no noise with Anthony Davis, why would it be any different with Giannis?

The MIL roster is better than what NO put around AD and Jrue.

 

[BradInATX 9208]

Let me demonstrate why this is a great move and why the Bucks did it.

Damian Lillard. I'll let you guys figure out which year he played against Holiday. He turned one of the best offensive players on the planet into a negative offensive piece. Literally erased him.


 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

I agree and shared similar thoughts about Middleton even before the playoffs started last year when @Wulaw Horn called me crazy for thinking the Bucks were not a serious title contender. But Middleton is now their third best player and he's probably a good enough 3rd best player to be on a championship team.

 

 

Do playoffs tho. I expect a lot of grumbling about the move during the regular season. Then the playoffs will come and everyone is going to be like "oh.. yeah, that makes sense now".

Bingo, Bledsoe has been fucking terrible the last two yrs in the playoffs.

[d2o 1602]

11 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 

 

So..... I absolutely get why folks think this and I prefer Jrue as well, mainly because he's a really good defender, but the numbers don't really bear this one out.  Now, playing with a better surrounding cast can often result in a player's bump in efficiency and sometimes shooting Bledsoe disappeared in the playoffs, so there's a need to account for this, but it's not a huge numbers difference.

Bledsoe is actually almost 30 though.

 

That tweet is misleading at best.   As you said Bledsoe is 30 but he avg'd 14.9/4.5/6.5 this yr.   Those numbers quoted are from when he was 27.

 

More importantly he shot 38.8% from the field and 25% from 3 in the playoffs this past season.  He was a complete liability

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Let me demonstrate why this is a great move and why the Bucks did it.

Damian Lillard. I'll let you guys figure out which year he played against Holiday.

 

 

Yea, Jrue is a really good defender and that's why I'd rather have him, but it wasn't just Jrue that series but schemed to funnel to the hard trap in the lane on both the Portland guards (before Nurkic made his big jump too).  Again, I'd rather have Jrue, although he doesn't have a huge playoff resume', he played fantastically 3 years ago. 

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

That tweet is misleading at best.   As you said Bledsoe is 30 but he avg'd 14.9/4.5/6.5 this yr.   Those numbers quoted are from when he was 27.

 

More importantly he shot 38.8% from the field and 25% from 3 in the playoffs this past season.  He was a complete liability

Already noted.  I think Bledsoe's playoff disappearance is what got him the boot and that's fair.   The advanced were from last season.  We're going to see if Jrue is the missing link, personally, I've been on the bandwagon that the Bucks made a horrible decision to extend Bledsoe and not Brogs, who I think is maybe a better player than both, certainly a better contract, younger, and wouldn't have cost you 3 firsts and 2 draft swaps.

So, if this is true, then makes sense for the Bucks..... but if they simply would have made a better decision last year, then they probably don't have to pay such a hefty price.

 

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Yea, Jrue is a really good defender and that's why I'd rather have him, but it wasn't just Jrue that series but schemed to funnel to the hard trap in the lane on both the Portland guards (before Nurkic made his big jump too).  Again, I'd rather have Jrue, although he doesn't have a huge playoff resume', he played fantastically 3 years ago. 

Already noted.  I think Bledsoe's playoff disappearance is what got him the boot and that's fair.   The advanced were from last season.  We're going to see if Jrue is the missing link, personally, I've been on the bandwagon that the Bucks made a horrible decision to extend Bledsoe and not Brogs, who I think is maybe a better player than both, certainly a better contract, younger, and wouldn't have cost you 3 firsts and 2 draft swaps.

So, if this is true, then makes sense for the Bucks..... but if they simply would have made a better decision last year, then they probably don't have to pay such a hefty price.

 

Agree wholeheartedly with the Brogdon v Bledsoe mistake.    Its done now though.   Gotta try and move forward.

[Zonahorn 8079]

 

David Griffin is actually good at his job, unlike Dell Demps

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Zonahorn said:

 

David Griffin is actually good at his job, unlike Dell Demps

Interesting.   So the picks are even further out.   Two ways to look at that.    Those have a better chance at being good picks.    

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

Jesus... two unprotected picks 5 and 7 years from now. I'm sure those won't come back to bite them in the ass when Giannis is 32 and playing for the Lakers.

[d2o 1602]

This is really interesting.   Wonder how much interest he will get or if his people and POR already have something in place.   If say the Lakers, Bucks or Clips get him at MLE that would be huge

 

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Jesus... two unprotected picks 5 and 7 years from now. I'm sure those won't come back to bite them in the ass when Giannis is 32 and playing for the Lakers.

Definitely makes it harder to defend 

[BradInATX 9208]

That's wild.

By the 2030s the draft is just going to be 5 or 6 terrible teams alternating picks as the rest of the league mortgaged their future chasing superteams. It'll just be a first round rotating between NOLA, Atlanta, the Knicks and the crying Jordan Bobcats.

[Zonahorn 8079]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

That's wild.

By the 2030s the draft is just going to be 5 or 6 terrible teams alternating picks as the rest of the league mortgaged their future chasing superteams. It'll just be a first round rotating between NOLA, Atlanta, the Knicks and the crying Jordan Bobcats.

How are you gonna forget OKC and their 8 billion picks?

[BradInATX 9208]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

Definitely makes it harder to defend 

Yeah. It's a championship or bust move. I can't knock the hustle but that's a move that you have to win a ring or it was a bust. 

I wonder if at some point the NBA is going to step in and limit how far out you can trade picks. You've got teams trading picks so far out that the current coaches, players, and GM won't ever have to deal with it. 

[d2o 1602]

51 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah. It's a championship or bust move. I can't knock the hustle but that's a move that you have to win a ring or it was a bust. 

I wonder if at some point the NBA is going to step in and limit how far out you can trade picks. You've got teams trading picks so far out that the current coaches, players, and GM won't ever have to deal with it. 

I imagine they have to have a limit in place already.  If not, there will be a team trading their first 10 yrs from now soon.     The Stepien rule is the rule so they have to alternate yrs as is.   Teams started adding the picks swaps in the other yrs to get around that recently.    Every CBA rule they add teams figure out a way around it.

Edited November 17, 2020 by d2o

[Murfdogg21 4423]

The Bobby Bonilla contract of Draft picks. “Here we’ll trade you all of our first rounders between 2030 and 2040 for your possible star player today!”

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18551]

The NBA offseason is not fucking around.

[Horn of Gabriel 1669]

Wait Harden, Kyrie, and KD?  How are there enough shots for that lineup?

[jeevsie 3739]

Well, that sucks for KD.

[HtownHorn 14762]

48 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Wait Harden, Kyrie, and KD?  How are there enough shots for that lineup?

DeAndre Jordan averages 10 ORB?

[TonyTexas 10524]

6 minutes ago, jeevsie said:

Well, that sucks for KD.

A title wouldn’t suck. 

[Aqua Buddha 14600]

Houston blowing it up and OKC has two of their draft picks in the next few years.....

[jeevsie 3739]

Harden is bad juju when it comes to titles.

[HtownHorn 14762]

30 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Houston blowing it up and OKC has two of their draft picks in the next few years.....

Next year's pick swap is protected 1-4, 2024 is protected 1-4, 2025's pick swap is protected 1-10, and 2026 is protected 1-4.

So this isn't like Miami getting the #1 pick in the NFL draft from the Texans awful, and the Rockets could definitely make up for some of it with the draft pick hauls from Harden and Westbrook.

[LTtxfan 49330]

4 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah. It's a championship or bust move. I can't knock the hustle but that's a move that you have to win a ring or it was a bust. 

I wonder if at some point the NBA is going to step in and limit how far out you can trade picks. You've got teams trading picks so far out that the current coaches, players, and GM won't ever have to deal with it. 

Great points... the NBA super team roster bullshit for free agents needs to changed or some of the smaller market teams won't survive.

I've always  rooted for the teams in Texas, and other smaller market teams.  If changes aren't made, I'm concerned that none of these teams will ever be in the NBA Finals again.

[LTtxfan 49330]

Brutal...

 

[d2o 1602]

2 hours ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Wait Harden, Kyrie, and KD?  How are there enough shots for that lineup?

 

There arent.   Gonna be a train wreck and I'm HERE FOR IT!!

 

Wonder what the odds are on who asks out first.

Edited November 17, 2020 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

23 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Great points... the NBA super team roster bullshit for free agents needs to changed or some of the smaller market teams won't survive.

I've always  rooted for the teams in Texas, and other smaller market teams.  If changes aren't made, I'm concerned that none of these teams will ever be in the NBA Finals again.

meh

[LTtxfan 49330]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

meh

[aggie08 21523]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

There arent.   Gonna be a train wreck and I'm HERE FOR IT!!

Along with being the worst defensive backcourt in the history of the league. I still think it's a guaranteed conference finals appearances in the East, but they're going to have some warts for sure. They can all shoot, so that's helpful. 

[Sbbruin 21866]

31 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Great points... the NBA super team roster bullshit for free agents needs to changed or some of the smaller market teams won't survive.

I've always  rooted for the teams in Texas, and other smaller market teams.  If changes aren't made, I'm concerned that none of these teams will ever be in the NBA Finals again.

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

[LTtxfan 49330]

2 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

Shut Up LA... 😁

[Sbbruin 21866]

1 minute ago, LTtxfan said:

Shut Up LA... 😁

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

Shit SF/Oak was small market for about 30 yrs then all of a sudden they weren't.   Funny how good management can actually change your market size.

 

 

[LTtxfan 49330]

2 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

                                     NEVER... NEVER... NEVER

[Sbbruin 21866]

Just now, LTtxfan said:

                                     NEVER... NEVER... NEVER

Ironic choice of gif.

[LTtxfan 49330]

Just now, Sbbruin said:

Ironic choice of gif.

On purpose...

[Kermit 3158]

20 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

Television, not population, determines market size. San Antonio is 31st with a .81 share. New York and LA combined control a little over 11%. Plus, while San Antonio’s population is large, there’s not a lot of Fortune 500 companies. Dallas and Houston are not small market, but San Antonio most definitely is.

[Sbbruin 21866]

1 minute ago, Kermit said:

Television, not population, determines market size. San Antonio is 31st with a .81 share. New York and LA combined control a little over 11%. Plus, while San Antonio’s population is large, there’s not a lot of Fortune 500 companies. Dallas and Houston are not small market, but San Antonio most definitely is.

Seems counter-intuitive.  Most SA residents are fat and lazy, right?  Wouldn't laying on the couch watching tv be right up their alley?

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

28 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Shut Up LA... 😁

San Antonio is a pretty small market..... TV markets is typically how they're judged.  San Antonio is the 31st TV market.  Dallas and Houston...... yea, they're not small market.

Whoops, that was for Bruin, but the point remains...

Edited November 18, 2020 by Patrick Bateman

[Kermit 3158]

8 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Seems counter-intuitive.  Most SA residents are fat and lazy, right?  Wouldn't laying on the couch watching tv be right up their alley?

Are you insinuating that Hispanic people are fat lazy? 

[ztejas 43528]

4 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Are you insinuating that Hispanic people are fat lazy? 

He is. He's an unabashed racist, and far worse than that, a Lakers fan.

He's also never been to Houston apparently.

Edited November 18, 2020 by ztejas

[conVINCEd 21469]

6 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Are you insinuating that Hispanic people are fat lazy? 

I think he is insinuating they either can’t type or are grammatically challenged.