2020 NBA Offseason Thread (Abbreviated) -- Draft, Free Agency, Trades, etc

[shadow_operative 15932]

Just now, d2o said:

You are cause that was his point.

LeBron and AD smashing the 5 seed from the East was the toughest championship in NBA history? on what planet? 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, shadow_operative said:

LeBron and AD smashing the 5 seed from the East was the toughest championship in NBA history? on what planet? 

[shadow_operative 15932]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

okie dokie. 

[conVINCEd 21473]

Seeding of the teams LAL defeated in the playoffs: 8,4,3,5. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

d2O- you can keep bickering, and arguing, and generally acting as if everyone else here is a moron, but i'm just going to leave this here and then wait for you to explain to all of us idiots how this is the toughest title run in NBA history.

lol, they were 14-3 through 17 games of the playoffs. 4-1 vs POR; 4-1 vs HOU; 4-1 vs DEN; 2-0 vs Miami. TOUGHEST TITLE EVER!!1!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 8, 2020 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15932]

last year heading into the playoffs the consensus was that only three teams had any shot at winning it all: LAC, LAL, and Milwaukee. LAC did its typical wilting, and Milwaukee was the paper tiger we all knew they were. neither of the other two "contenders" ever even looked like a threat, but yeah, sure- toughest title run ever. 🙄 

you could probably run these playoffs back 1,000 times and LAL would win every single one where LeBron and AD stayed healthy. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by shadow_operative

[aggie08 21561]

33 minutes ago, d2o said:

Its not ridiculous but hey do you.   And I said long before the playoffs even started this unprecedented situation makes this one of the most difficult title runs ever and I didnt care who won it.

And that's fine had he said that. "One of the..."  People acknowledge that this was a strange, extremely challenging year; that's why no one with any real credibility has tried to attach an asterisk to their title. It was as close to NBA playoff basketball as they could realistically re-create, and they kicked everyone's ass. Mad props.  But that's not enough for him, so he's trying to claim having won "the two toughest titles in NBA history" based on...having to stay in a hotel for 3 months (not that that wouldn't be a mental beating, but c'mon). I know that you and I will never agree on this, but he brings a lot of this unnecessarily on himself. I generally like the dude--and I guess it should be refreshing to have a superstar athlete admit to having an enormous ego, rather than bullshit humility--but continually patting himself on the back and making his own declarations is tiresome. He's got more than enough people to do it for him.

[d2o 1602]

14 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

And that's fine had he said that. "One of the..."  People acknowledge that this was a strange, extremely challenging year; that's why no one with any real credibility has tried to attach an asterisk to their title. It was as close to NBA playoff basketball as they could realistically re-create, and they kicked everyone's ass. Mad props.  But that's not enough for him, so he's trying to claim having won "the two toughest titles in NBA history" based on...having to stay in a hotel for 3 months (not that that wouldn't be a mental beating, but c'mon). I know that you and I will never agree on this, but he brings a lot of this unnecessarily on himself. I generally like the dude--and I guess it should be refreshing to have a superstar athlete admit to having an enormous ego, rather than bullshit humility--but continually patting himself on the back and making his own declarations is tiresome. He's got more than enough people to do it for him.

Now I see.   Yall were just looking at that IG post.    I actually watched the podcast.   This is the actual quote

 

"I've been a part of two teams that's won the two hardest championships in NBA league history - the 2016 Cavs coming back from 3-1 versus a 73-9 team...and then what we went through in the bubble. If you're not in the bubble, you don't quite understand it. ... This is literally out of your whole comfort zone. I didn't see my family for eight and a half weeks. ... It just felt like a horror movie in the bubble and I just believe that I've been a part of two of the hardest championships in league history."

[Drew 2540]

Damn the actual quote is worse. He literally said "the 2 hardest championships in League History".  LMFAO.  

I stand by what I said, it's a ridiculous statement.  Saying 1 of the toughest titles was bad enough...saying the toughest is absolutely ridiculous. 

 

BTW I've never been a Lebron Hater.  He's had an amazing career and will end up as a Top 2 NBA player.  We can say that AND say he's making a stupid claim(he is)

Edited December 8, 2020 by Drew

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

I suppose it's two different arguments about what constitutes, "hardest". One is arguing that coming back from 3-1 against the team with the best record in NBA history is the "hardest" championship, ignoring the fact that it was 0-0 when the series started. Is it the hardest because you put yourself in a 3-1 jam? I mean, instead of blowing smoke up your own ass maybe take responsibility for digging the hole you had to climb out of? In a sense, that's kind of like arguing that Tom Herman did a great coaching job this year overcoming all of his team's penalties, ignoring the fact that he is ultimately responsible for said penalties. It's a terrible analogy but I think it makes its point. And again, it ignores the absolute cakewalk they had in the east.

The second argument is that the bubble made this the "hardest" title ever, regardless of who came out of there. I can get behind this take to a certain extent, but you know there would be zero acknowledgement of this by him if somebody else had won. Sure, history is written by victors but it is definitely on brand for Lebron to self-proclaim this. You'll have to excuse me for not getting overly excited about beating the 8th seed Blazers (with Lillard getting injured in game 4), the 6 foot and under dysfunctional Rockets, the not ready for primetime Nuggets and the Dragic-less and beat up Bam Heat. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

aggie and mitch both said it well. D2O started this off by acting like people were bending over backwards to find reasons to be upset with LeBron, when that's simply not the case. LeBron is The King (pun intended) of being self-congratulatory, and making definitive statements about his own greatness which are not only *not* the definitive, unarguable facts which he makes then out to be, but are often just laughable takes that no unbiased person could even agree with in the first place. eg, "that shot right there made me the greatest of all time". Bron- you still can't even shoot FTs consistently (especially when they matter) and your Finals record is terrible (hadn't won his LA title when he said this) and yet you have the gall to say this type of stuff. FOH. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by shadow_operative

[ztejas 43557]

7 hours ago, d2o said:

Funny that all offseason we heard that they had LBJ/AD and a bunch of vert min guys.  The Clips were so much more talented and more.  Now the talent difference was significant.  

Lol what? They didn't play the Clippers. 

2020 was a solid title. Nothing wrong with it. I'd only asterisk it in jest. 

Acting like it was some arduous run to the championship is hilarious, though. Curry and KD didn't even play in the playoffs. Then the Lakers missed going through Kawhi or Giannis. They beat a band of mental midgets in Portland, a decent Rockets team, a very good but inexperienced Nuggets team, and a good Heat team that had little star power and was gutted by injuries. 

LeBron's 2013 title was much tougher. Not even close, really. 

[BradInATX 9208]

Lol at this being a tough title run. I guess if we're saying tough as in the meals Disney was catering to his hotel room were below his personal chef back at home's standard, sure. Basketball wise? Lulz. One of the easiest roads I can remember ever. They were like +500 or higher favorites in every series.

I like LeBron but damn he shows how out of touch he can be sometimes.

[conVINCEd 21473]

21 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Lol what? They didn't play the Clippers. 

2020 was a solid title. Nothing wrong with it. I'd only asterisk it in jest. 

Acting like it was some arduous run to the championship is hilarious, though. Curry and KD didn't even play in the playoffs. Then the Lakers missed going through Kawhi or Giannis. They beat a band of mental midgets in Portland, a decent Rockets team of actual midgets, a very good but inexperienced Nuggets team, and a good Heat team that had little star power and was gutted by injuries. 

LeBron's 2013 title was much tougher. Not even close, really. 

fify

[TommyGufano 6021]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Lol at this being a tough title run. I guess if we're saying tough as in the meals Disney was catering to his hotel room were below his personal chef back at home's standard, sure. Basketball wise? Lulz. One of the easiest roads I can remember ever. They were like +500 or higher favorites in every series.

I like LeBron but damn he shows how out of touch he can be sometimes.


 

were they? 

[HookEm 2468]

No actually, but if he said that, I would agree depending what he said.  I actually used to like him as a writer, but not so much on TV.

Surprising. He had a whole podcast talking about a 3-team trade exactly as you describe. I personally think it overrates Porter Jr.

[HookEm 2468]

The lack of home court advantage made it a lot harder than normal on the better teams. Usually they would have the psychological lift of playing at home. Not to mention the favorable reffing at home.

Plus the small gyms and lack of crowds gave more advantage to the younger teams. You saw a lot better shooting in general. The Miami they played was a lot different team than what they would have faced outside the bubble with their young shooters.

The end result was it was much harder on the good teams than normal, which is why we saw more upsets.

Additionally, the Finals teams stayed a lot longer in the bubble than the bulk of the other teams. I can see it being very mentally challenging as they advanced in the playoffs. Harder than normal to fight through adversity because you just want to go home. It was also challenging from a team dynamic as the players were with each other 24x7 with no real social break. The dysfunctional teams all seemed to bow out early and I think this played a role.

I have no problem with anyone saying this was the toughest title of all time.

[BradInATX 9208]

1 hour ago, HookEm said:

The lack of home court advantage made it a lot harder than normal on the better teams. Usually they would have the psychological lift of playing at home. Not to mention the favorable reffing at home.

Plus the small gyms and lack of crowds gave more advantage to the younger teams. You saw a lot better shooting in general. The Miami they played was a lot different team than what they would have faced outside the bubble with their young shooters.

The end result was it was much harder on the good teams than normal, which is why we saw more upsets.

Additionally, the Finals teams stayed a lot longer in the bubble than the bulk of the other teams. I can see it being very mentally challenging as they advanced in the playoffs. Harder than normal to fight through adversity because you just want to go home. It was also challenging from a team dynamic as the players were with each other 24x7 with no real social break. The dysfunctional teams all seemed to bow out early and I think this played a role.

I have no problem with anyone saying this was the toughest title of all time.

There were only two real "upsets", and both were fairly predictable upsets of flawed teams, not legitimate major upsets that shocked the world. I called Milwaukee going out early before the playoffs even started. Many on here saw the Clippers issues and called them going out early as well (I was not one of them). Nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever and nothing surprising.

"Additionally, the Finals teams stayed a lot longer in the bubble than the bulk of the other teams". So what? The Lakers had been in the bubble exactly the same amount of time as their opponent in every single game they played. Or did Miami or Denver get a break from the bubble that LA didn't get? At no point were the Lakers at any disadvantage created by the bubble that the other team didn't have equally. That's why it's a dumb statement. 

Toughest title of all time my ass. Crazy talk. It may have been a very challenging time period for these players and groups of men, but everyone was dealing with the same thing. From a basketball perspective it's probably the weakest slate of opponents a Finals team has ever faced, except maybe the one year where everyone Golden State played had their top player out with injury.

Edited December 9, 2020 by BradInATX

[shadow_operative 15932]

god i'd love to see LeBron's reaction if you could throw any one of his title winning teams into the Eastern Conference around the time the Bad Boy Pistons and up-and-coming Bulls were duking it out. he's probably have to be wheeled out of there like Paul Pierce and shit. "toughest championship of all time." lol, no. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

22 hours ago, BradInATX said:

No doubt. Them and NOLA are the only two teams where you could equally talk me into 50 wins or 25.

I could see golden state winning 40 or winning 20. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

12 hours ago, d2o said:

What exactly does HOU have that would make DEN even think about giving them MPJ?   

The idea is that Denver gets 3 solid rotation pieces from Brooklyn for a guy that’s untapped upside. All that said if I’m the rockets the only guy I’m trading harden for that’s available is Simmons and that’s only after I conclusively prove over 2 or 3 months that harden can’t be salvaged. 
the fact that Boston wouldn’t do Brown and Smart for Harden tells me Ainge is a first rate moron. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Pasken 1309]

Would the nba be more interesting if you didn’t have to match salaries in trades?

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

19 minutes ago, Pasken said:

Would the nba be more interesting if you didn’t have to match salaries in trades?

Yes. 

[UTDD 362]

I think you can dunk on LBJ's statement and not be dunking on him as a player and talent overall.  Totally independent things.  I personally think there is no debate that LeBron is at worst a Top 3 (I think he's #2 right now and is still not done playing and shooting for #1) player by almost any reasonable set of standards you want to use.  There is no independent stat or even set of stats that can really tell a story, but one curiosity is if you look at single player VORP playoff rating year by year.  The top 17 of 29 all-time VORP playoff single season runs are held by only two players: Michael Jordan and LeBron James.  (pre 1970s are not calculated so perhaps Wilt/Russell might have done some work in this stat)  The entire history of the NBA by every other player in every year ever has the other 12, and no other player has more than 2 in there.  No stat should be taken on its own as something truly meaningful (a lot of context behind every metric) but that's still a bit staggering to see two players out lap the entire NBA field historically in that way with a fairly decent metric used in the NBA by agents, GMs, etc.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8823]

I know a lot of yall like to shit on LBJ but acting like the mental toll of being in the bubble while the rest of the world is in the middle of a pandemic is nothing is fucking foolish

Looks like he’s struggling.

[conVINCEd 21473]

10 hours ago, UTDD said:

I think you can dunk on LBJ's statement and not be dunking on him as a player and talent overall.  Totally independent things.  I personally think there is no debate that LeBron is at worst a Top 3 (I think he's #2 right now and is still not done playing and shooting for #1) player by almost any reasonable set of standards you want to use.  There is no independent stat or even set of stats that can really tell a story, but one curiosity is if you look at single player VORP playoff rating year by year.  The top 17 of 29 all-time VORP playoff single season runs are held by only two players: Michael Jordan and LeBron James.  (pre 1970s are not calculated so perhaps Wilt/Russell might have done some work in this stat)  The entire history of the NBA by every other player in every year ever has the other 12, and no other player has more than 2 in there.  No stat should be taken on its own as something truly meaningful (a lot of context behind every metric) but that's still a bit staggering to see two players out lap the entire NBA field historically in that way with a fairly decent metric used in the NBA by agents, GMs, etc.

Summary:  you can be an all-time great player and also be a bitch.

[d2o 1602]

18 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The idea is that Denver gets 3 solid rotation pieces from Brooklyn for a guy that’s untapped upside. All that said if I’m the rockets the only guy I’m trading harden for that’s available is Simmons and that’s only after I conclusively prove over 2 or 3 months that harden can’t be salvaged. 
the fact that Boston wouldn’t do Brown and Smart for Harden tells me Ainge is a first rate moron. 

Wait, this was reportedly offered?????

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

16 minutes ago, d2o said:

Wait, this was reportedly offered?????

No.  But I've heard 3 or 4 people (Simmons, Lowe, NBA Ringer podcast) talk about young stars not available for Harden.  They have all categorically said Boston wouldn't do Jaylen Brown and Smart for Harden. I believe them. I also believe Ainge should drink bleach if he turned that down, but hey, Danny would rather expend all his energy into trying to chase after buttfucking someone else on a deal the way he did the Nets a decade ago, rather than make a deal that makes sense that's workable for both parties.  He's come in 2nd in about 10 deals in a row, and as a result he keeps getting stuck with 3 shitty mid round draft picks that nobody really wants, and that he doesn't have room for on his team, that don't make him any better. 
Good job good effort cocksucker.  

I believe them b/c it fits their MO. 

[Dutchrudder 11155]

18 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The idea is that Denver gets 3 solid rotation pieces from Brooklyn for a guy that’s untapped upside. All that said if I’m the rockets the only guy I’m trading harden for that’s available is Simmons and that’s only after I conclusively prove over 2 or 3 months that harden can’t be salvaged. 
the fact that Boston wouldn’t do Brown and Smart for Harden tells me Ainge is a first rate moron. 

That's because the Rockets didn't offer a few 1st round picks to go with it.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 minute ago, Dutchrudder said:

That's because the Rockets didn't offer a few 1st round picks to go with it.

Not sure if serious but if you think that Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart is more valuable than James Harden you are dumber than Danny Ainge.  You are trading away a quarter and a 50 cent piece for a dollar. You'd be crazy not to do that (and I'm not even a particular fan of Harden's- but he's so much better by every single fucking measure that creates value to winning basketball games than anyone gives him credit for).  

He's the most efficient volume scored in basically the history of the league (top 5 anyway) and now his defense is solid to very good in the post and not "indescribably awful" on the wing. Pair that with unrivaled durability more or less and you have a guy that's value is #2 in the NBA for the last decade behind only Lebron, and a guy that should be no worst than the 6th best guy in the league the remainder of his contract.  He's the best basketball player in the world under 6'7" and anyone arguing otherwise is crazy.  

Jaylen Brown is a nice tertiary piece on a title team, that can be replaced by 20 or 30 other players in the league. Harden is a 1 of 1. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

No.  But I've heard 3 or 4 people (Simmons, Lowe, NBA Ringer podcast) talk about young stars not available for Harden.  They have all categorically said Boston wouldn't do Jaylen Brown and Smart for Harden. I believe them. I also believe Ainge should drink bleach if he turned that down, but hey, Danny would rather expend all his energy into trying to chase after buttfucking someone else on a deal the way he did the Nets a decade ago, rather than make a deal that makes sense that's workable for both parties.  He's come in 2nd in about 10 deals in a row, and as a result he keeps getting stuck with 3 shitty mid round draft picks that nobody really wants, and that he doesn't have room for on his team, that don't make him any better. 
Good job good effort cocksucker.  

I believe them b/c it fits their MO. 

Yeah, I have post after post in these NBA threads talking about how Ainge keeps trying to rob folks and fucks himself out of deal that would legit makes his team better.   Missing out on Heyward to Indy for Myles Turner cause he was insisting that they included Oladipo was the latest example.   But man if he would really pass on Harden (no matter how many picks it takes) to keep Brown and Smart. Good grief.   And I LOVE Jaylen Brown!!!

[d2o 1602]

9 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

That's because the Rockets didn't offer a few 1st round picks to go with it.

 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

10 minutes ago, d2o said:

Yeah, I have post after post in these NBA threads talking about how Ainge keeps trying to rob folks and fucks himself out of deal that would legit makes his team better.   Missing out on Heyward to Indy for Myles Turner cause he was insisting that they included Oladipo was the latest example.   But man if he would really pass on Harden (no matter how many picks it takes) to keep Brown and Smart. Good grief.   And I LOVE Jaylen Brown!!!

I think Jaylen Brown is incredibly overrated. People talk about him like he's a franchise cornerstone and in reality he's like the 30th best player in the league.  You ain't winning shit with him as your first or second option.  

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

9 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm on his part or if he's just a Boston fan. Because that's the kind of response you get from just about any Boston fan whenever their player is talked about. I've never seen a fan base more delusional about the value of their players/assets. It would just be comical if they weren't so vociferous in their stupidity.  Maybe the Yankee fans are as bad as them. Maybe. 

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think Jaylen Brown is incredibly overrated. People talk about him like he's a franchise cornerstone and in reality he's like the 30th best player in the league.  You ain't winning shit with him as your first or second option.  

Hmmmm........30th in the league is pretty good actually but you dont let the 30th player stop you from getting a top 5 guy.......................ever.   Especially now that Brown is off his rookie deal.

Edited December 9, 2020 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm on his part or if he's just a Boston fan. Because that's the kind of response you get from just about any Boston fan whenever their player is talked about. I've never seen a fan base more delusional about the value of their players/assets. It would just be comical if they weren't so vociferous in their stupidity.  Maybe the Yankee fans are as bad as them. Maybe. 

Well, I was hoping it was sarcasm.    The only thing that gets Ainge's attention is picks it seems.

[ztejas 43557]

56 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Pair that with unrivaled durability more or less and you have a guy that's value is #2 in the NBA for the last decade behind only Lebron

Lol c'mon man. Thought you were just gonna slide that in there? Value in the regular season, sure.

[BradInATX 9208]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

and now his defense is solid to very good in the post and not "indescribably awful" on the wing.

Gotta give you credit for a perfectly stated description of Harden on defense.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

17 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Lol c'mon man. Thought you were just gonna slide that in there? Value in the regular season, sure.

Sure. He’s got 2 full seasons on Durant. That makes his total value over the decade #2. Only a paint eater would prefer Harden to Durant in the playoffs. But that doesn’t change the truth of what I said. 

[BradInATX 9208]

I'm not going to jump in the Harden vs. Durant "decade value" argument but Steph Curry's value in the 2010s shits all over Harden's. It's not even close.

I think the question is more whether Harden is in the top 5 or not.

Edited December 9, 2020 by BradInATX

[Dutchrudder 11155]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

 

yes, it's sarcasm, because Ainge is a greedy fucking idiot trying to stockpile all these picks for years, and then does nothing with them. He tries to squeeze every last 1st he can out of everyone, and ends up doing nothing with it all. Boston is like the Houston of the EC, all potential with not much to show for it. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Hmmmm........30th in the league is pretty good actually but you dont let the 30th player stop you from getting a top 5 guy.......................ever.   Especially now that Brown is off his rookie deal.

That’s my point- we are saying the same things. I’m not dogging the 30th best player in the league for the sake of dogging him- it’s a great accomplishment!  And the entire history of the nba shows that it doesn’t mean shit bc you have to have a top 8 guy (and probably 2 in the top 10 or 15) to win a title. Unless it’s Hakeem or dirk, or you want to assemble a fully awesome team that fits perfectly and has 4 top 30 guys. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

8 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I'm not going to jump in the Harden vs. Durant "decade value" argument but Steph Curry's value in the 2010s shits all over Harden's. It's not even close.

I think the question is more whether Harden is in the top 5 or not.

It’s inconceivable that from 2011-20202 hardens value isn’t top 5. Look at counting stays. Look at Warp or win shares or whatever. Total numbers. Not by rate. Rita accumulation of value. 

[d2o 1602]

12 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Sure. He’s got 2 full seasons on Durant. That makes his total value over the decade #2. Only a paint eater would prefer Harden to Durant in the playoffs. But that doesn’t change the truth of what I said. 

If we are only talking regular season then, I guess sure.    If playoffs are included, fuck no!

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s inconceivable that from 2011-20202 hardens value isn’t top 5. Look at counting stays. Look at Warp or win shares or whatever. Total numbers. Not by rate. Rita accumulation of value. 

Yeah, I mean, what are we talking about here? You trying to win rings or are you trying to be the Rockets? If we're trying to win rings then:

- Every single GM in the league would have taken the last 10 years of Bron, Curry, and Durant over Harden

- Most GMs would take the last 8 years of Kawhi over 10 of Harden

After that I guess you go Harden. So yeah, top 5.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

If we are only talking regular season then, I guess sure.    If playoffs are included, fuck no!

The only time he was paired with another top 20 player they had one of the greatest teams of all times on the ropes until Said player came up lame. Harden has some

stinkers to answer for in the playoffs no doubt- but he’s not some sort of hapless clown. 
I know of playoff chokes from watching Bagwell/biggio era astros in the playoffs. Hardens not that. He’s spotty. It’s complicated. I’d call him an ass end of the top 10 playoff performer. 
Look at the teams who have knocked him out and tell me how many of them he should have beaten. 
the last 3 times he got bounced in the playoffs were by champs or the guys that would have been for champs but for injuries (warrriors, warriors, lakers). 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah, I mean, what are we talking about here? You trying to win rings or are you trying to be the Rockets? If we're trying to win rings then:

- Every single GM in the league would have taken the last 10 years of Bron, Curry, and Durant over Harden

- Most GMs would take the last 8 years of Kawhi over 10 of Harden

After that I guess you go Harden. So yeah, top 5.

Totally and completely fair.  No argument at all. Remember my initial statement wasn't OMG- James Harden is the GOAT. It was, Danny Ainge is a stupid mother fucker if he's interested in winning titles and values Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart and a couple draft picks over James Harden.  The entire league is getting stupid.  If you have the opportunity to get James Harden and don't have to give up a top 10 player in the league you fucking call the trade into the front office before Houston changes their mind. It's stupid. If you are, you know, trying to give your team the best chance to win a title.

All that said- he doesn't guarantee a title to anyone.  Lebron and Davis are going to be a tough fucking out.  But if I'm Brooklyn or Philly or Boston or Denver or the Clippers I do whatever it takes to get him if it means holding on to, respectively, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, big fucking goofy euro white guy in Denver or Kawahi.  Anyone else Houston is asking for I call that trade in immediately. Like right fucking now.  

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The only time he was paired with another top 20 player they had one of the greatest teams of all times on the ropes until Said player came up lame. Harden has some

stinkers to answer for in the playoffs no doubt- but he’s not some sort of hapless clown. 
I know of playoff chokes from watching Bagwell/biggio era astros in the playoffs. Hardens not that. He’s spotty. It’s complicated. I’d call him an ass end of the top 10 playoff performer. 
Look at the teams who have knocked him out and tell me how many of them he should have beaten. 
the last 3 times he got bounced in the playoffs were by champs or the guys that would have been for champs but for injuries (warrriors, warriors, lakers). 

Its not even so much that he hasnt won (though that is big).    He has flamed out MASSIVELY in the times they needed their MVP the most.   Multiple late series games with 10+ TOs.   Multiple playoff games like 7-30 from the field etc.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

Its not even so much that he hasnt won (though that is big).    He has flamed out MASSIVELY in the times they needed their MVP the most.   Multiple late series games with 10+ TOs.   Multiple playoff games like 7-30 from the field etc.

Absolutely.  That's what I meant when I said he's spotty and it's complicated.  He's never seized the moment and willed his team to be better than it was. And if you are an all time great you just need to do that kind of thing in the playoffs.  Almost everyone who we think of as a top 10/15/20 all time NBA player can point to that somewhere on their resume.  Durant was better than Lebron straight up during the Dubs first title.  No ifs ands or buts.  Everyone else we are talking about in that pantheon of players has won multiple MVP's, finals MVPs, been the undoubted best player on their team. That's why Harden isn't a top 15 or top 20 all time guy. If he would have done that in 2018 with Paul not getting hurt he'd be that guy. He isn't.  But that's a ridiculously high bar.  Just b/c you didn't ever do that doesn't mean teams shouldn't be salivating to move top 30 type guys for you. 

[BradInATX 9208]

7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Totally and completely fair.  No argument at all. Remember my initial statement wasn't OMG- James Harden is the GOAT. It was, Danny Ainge is a stupid mother fucker if he's interested in winning titles and values Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart and a couple draft picks over James Harden.  The entire league is getting stupid.  If you have the opportunity to get James Harden and don't have to give up a top 10 player in the league you fucking call the trade into the front office before Houston changes their mind. It's stupid. If you are, you know, trying to give your team the best chance to win a title.

All that said- he doesn't guarantee a title to anyone.  Lebron and Davis are going to be a tough fucking out.  But if I'm Brooklyn or Philly or Boston or Denver or the Clippers I do whatever it takes to get him if it means holding on to, respectively, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, big fucking goofy euro white guy in Denver or Kawahi.  Anyone else Houston is asking for I call that trade in immediately. Like right fucking now.  

Right on. I don't know that Harden for Brown and Tatum is really as cut and dry as you think, mostly because of age and the potential of those guys. But that's a whole different debate.