NYT: Trump has Non-disclosed Chinese bank accounts?

[ChiTownDoc 21,101]

7 hours ago, Rimbo said:

I didn't wait to vote. Now I'm just waiting for the results.

I meant us as a collective.  My vote is in.  Straight party D.  A first.  Felt good.  

[Fudge Nuggets 19,151]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Foreign accounts, right?  Not domestic accounts?  What is the limit? I don't think that I have ever declared an account balance on any return. 

Foreign accounts and if memory serves correctly it’s $10k. I had signature rights on my company’s local bank account in a third world shithole country and had to declare it. 
 

I believe a Chinese account would be foreign, right?

Edited October 21, 2020 by Fudge Nuggets

[TwiceHorn 31,276]

5 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Foreign accounts and if memory serves correctly it’s $10k. I had signature rights on my company’s local bank account in a third world shithole country and had to declare it. 
 

I believe a Chinese account would be foreign, right?

The 10k sounds about right.  Seems like that's a number that lawmakers have agreed represents a "substantial sum" where shenanigans may ensue.  It's the limit for transaction reporting to FinCen.  I think it's the amount you can travel with in cash without suspicion.  Et cetera.

[Rimbo 25,783]

1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

I meant us as a collective.  My vote is in.  Straight party D.  A first.  Felt good.  

Never thought I'd ever vote straight-party, and if I did, never thought it would be for D, but here we are.

I changed a little; the Republicans changed a lot.

[gsoda3 3,236]

$10,000 total in foreign accounts is the magic number at which you have to disclose.  it's the same # as the old anti money laundering rule for domestic accounts but i don't believe it was started at the same time.  first time i remember having to disclose my foreign accounts was sometime in the 2010s.

[gsoda3 3,236]

just read the article.  here's the most relevant part:

 

Quote

But Mr. Trump’s plans in China have been largely driven by a different company, Trump International Hotels Management — the one with a Chinese bank account.

The company has direct ownership of THC China Development, but is also involved in management of other Trump-branded properties around the world, and it is not possible to discern from its tax records how much of its financial activity is China-related. It normally reports a few million dollars in annual income and deductible expenses.

In 2017, the company reported an unusually large spike in revenue — some $17.5 million, more than the previous five years’ combined. It was accompanied by a $15.1 million withdrawal by Mr. Trump from the company’s capital account.

 

On the president’s public financial disclosures for that year, he reported the large revenue figure, and described it only as “management fees and other contract payments.” One significant event for the company that is known to have occurred in 2017 was the buyout of its management contract for the SoHo hotel in New York, which Bloomberg reported to have cost around $6 million.

 

 

Wanted to break down what's in that article since it appears many are confused. 

 

Trump International has many bank accounts all over the world.  They need local accounts for wherever they have business interests.  One of those accounts is the Chinese one in question which they opened as they were pursuing business in China.  In 2017 Trump International had a spike in yearly revenue of $17.5mm.  We can't know where that $17.5mm came from, although we can trace $6mm of it to a NY management contract, $3mm to unit sales in Las Vegas, and $5.8mm to a contract in Vancouver.  Trump then pulled $15.1mm out of Trump International.  BTW this $15.1mm would have been properly documented with all taxes paid. 

To me where it gets murky is the timing - the article says this was reported in 2017 but it doesn't specify if they mean they're reporting FY 2016 earnings or FY 2017 earnings.  I'm inclined to think it's FY 2016 earnings as FY 2017 earnings wouldn't be reported til 2018.  

In either case, this is hardly a smoking gun where Trump's holding $15.1mm in cash from a secret Chinese account he used to hide money.  The only question I have is whether or not Trump International disclosed those accounts and whether or not they were properly audited.  

  

 

[tantric superman 4,667]

25 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I changed a little; the Republicans changed a lot.

Man.  I love this line.  Original or did you steal it?

[ChiTownDoc 21,101]

22 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

$10,000 total in foreign accounts is the magic number at which you have to disclose.  it's the same # as the old anti money laundering rule for domestic accounts but i don't believe it was started at the same time.  first time i remember having to disclose my foreign accounts was sometime in the 2010s.

Nice humblebrag.  

[TwiceHorn 31,276]

Yeah, all this shit is intentionally in nested LLCs and other entities to keep creditors and the IRS from being able to easily track cash flows and assets.

It is probably mostly beyond the ken of the NYT.  Unless they're quoting from a tax or accounting pro, I would read veeerrrry carefully about what it actually says.

N.B. this is not a defense of Teh Donald.  It is more bemoaning the state of reporting legal and complex quasi-legal information.

Given enough time, NYT can report things very well, like the Trump inheritance and tax scam with All County Building Maintenance & Supply.

But if they're scooping or trying to get it in before the election, it should probably be viewed as less than gospel truth.

Edited October 21, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Anastasis 23,395]

18 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

The only question I have is whether or not Trump International disclosed those accounts and whether or not they were properly audited. 

Agree.  For what it is worth, the THC CHINA DEVELOPMENT LLC bank account was disclosed in this government financial disclosure from 2019 (page 5, line 41; value $1k to 15k, income <$201). The same disclosure is on the 2017 filing as well with the same amounts. 

https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/2020/07/Trump-Donald-J.-2020Annual-278-1.pdf

 

[Rimbo 25,783]

2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Man.  I love this line.  Original or did you steal it?

I haven't the foggiest.

[Captainant 27,461]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Agree.  For what it is worth, the THC CHINA DEVELOPMENT LLC bank account was disclosed in this government financial disclosure from 2019 (page 5, line 41; value $1k to 15k, income <$201). The same disclosure is on the 2017 filing as well with the same amounts. 

https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/2020/07/Trump-Donald-J.-2020Annual-278-1.pdf

Wouldn't that be documentary proof of fraudulent disclosures? The appendix clarifies that THC CHINA DEVELOPMENT LLC was 100% owned by trump intl' hotels

[David Dennison 18,657]

Why does the president of the United States have any control whatsoever in companies with foreign bank accounts?

Good grief.

[gsoda3 3,236]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Why does the president of the United States have any control whatsoever in companies with foreign bank accounts?

Good grief.

what is it about having foreign bank accounts that worries you? 

[David Dennison 18,657]

2 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

what is it about having foreign bank accounts that worries you? 

Conflicts of interest when making foreign policy.

[RPM 26,228]

He hides millions offshore just like we do!

[hayden_horn 11,360]

6 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

what is it about having foreign bank accounts that worries you? 

are you seriously asking this question?

[gsoda3 3,236]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Conflicts of interest when making foreign policy.

i'm not trying to instigate anything by asking, but what conflicts of interest could arise from just having a foreign bank account?  i can come up with hypotheticals from having international business interests etc but just having foreign bank accounts i can't think of any realistic scenarios.  that said having int business interests almost requires foreign bank accounts so maybe that's what you mean?

[Pig Bellmont 8,691]

2 minutes ago, RPM said:

He hides millions offshore just like we do!

He and his companies received millions from Chinese state owned entities during his presidency- just like us!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

8 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

what is it about having foreign bank accounts that worries you? 

China having all kinds of financial information on Trump they can compromise him with b/c it’s outside US jurisdiction.  

[gsoda3 3,236]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

are you seriously asking this question?

answer the question then.  the way he posed his statement it sounded like the qualification for anxiousness was not having foreign business interests but rather having foreign bank accounts.  

[David Dennison 18,657]

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i'm not trying to instigate anything by asking, but what conflicts of interest could arise from just having a foreign bank account?  i can come up with hypotheticals from having international business interests etc but just having foreign bank accounts i can't think of any realistic scenarios.  that said having int business interests almost requires foreign bank accounts so maybe that's what you mean?

Why does the president of the United States have any foreign business interests?

[Brisketexan 104,619]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

answer the question then.  the way he posed his statement it sounded like the qualification for anxiousness was not having foreign business interests but rather having foreign bank accounts.  

foreign bank accounts are denominated in foreign currency.  The strength of that currency, the safety of that bank as a place of deposit, etc., are all of GREAT interest to someone with an account there.

Signed, someone whose family once had a lot of money stuck in a Mexican bank account, denominated in pesos.....which were then devalued, destroying almost all value of the account.  If we'd have had some sway over the Mexican gov't...or could give them something they wanted in order to either let us repatriate our money, or not devalue it, we'd have been tempted to use that power.

Just one EASY example.

[RPM 26,228]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Why does the president of the United States have any foreign business interests?

And why is it totally cool he has a foreign bank account?

I know this is a worn out meme, but imagine Obama had a foreign bank account. They're all hypocrites.

Edited October 21, 2020 by RPM

[hayden_horn 11,360]

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

answer the question then.  the way he posed his statement it sounded like the qualification for anxiousness was not having foreign business interests but rather having foreign bank accounts.  

so, you aren't at all worried about a president (or really, anyone in a position to affect foreign policy) who has business and financial interests in other countries, and then tries to hide it?

i mean, you can't put two and two together here?

and it's even more beyond the pale, because it's in china, of all fucking places. if he had a UK account, i might not necessarily be as stirred up, but we know china isn't exactly on the up and up.

further, the fact that he has active business interests at all is a major fucking problem as well, but that's a bone to pick in another thread.

[gsoda3 3,236]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

China having all kinds of financial information on Trump they can compromise him with b/c it’s outside US jurisdiction.  

good point, although if it's being properly reported (and ana's link looks like it has been) the only information china would have is the origination of funds.  and we could actually get that information through the courts although it would take some time.    

[gsoda3 3,236]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

foreign bank accounts are denominated in foreign currency.  The strength of that currency, the safety of that bank as a place of deposit, etc., are all of GREAT interest to someone with an account there.

Signed, someone whose family once had a lot of money stuck in a Mexican bank account, denominated in pesos.....which were then devalued, destroying almost all value of the account.  If we'd have had some sway over the Mexican gov't...or could give them something they wanted in order to either let us repatriate our money, or not devalue it, we'd have been tempted to use that power.

Just one EASY example.

not a good example.  

it's not easy for a president to influence the exchange rate or value of the currency.  first of all, you have to remember that the extreme majority of the time whatever we do to a country's rate affects our own dollar's strength.  secondly, even if you wanted to affect the value of currency through policy, the structure of central banks makes it almost impossible to do so singlehandedly.  

[gsoda3 3,236]

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

so, you aren't at all worried about a president (or really, anyone in a position to affect foreign policy) who has business and financial interests in other countries, and then tries to hide it?

i mean, you can't put two and two together here?

and it's even more beyond the pale, because it's in china, of all fucking places. if he had a UK account, i might not necessarily be as stirred up, but we know china isn't exactly on the up and up.

further, the fact that he has active business interests at all is a major fucking problem as well, but that's a bone to pick in another thread.

i asked why DD had a problem with presidents who had interest in companies with foreign bank accounts and you're talking about something else.  

 

for the record i do think a president with active business interests is a problem.  i don't think having foreign business accounts with foreign denominated currency in that locale makes it any worse.  hope that helps clear it up.

[Brisketexan 104,619]

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

not a good example.  

it's not easy for a president to influence the exchange rate or value of the currency.  first of all, you have to remember that the extreme majority of the time whatever we do to a country's rate affects our own dollar's strength.  secondly, even if you wanted to affect the value of currency through policy, the structure of central banks makes it almost impossible to do so singlehandedly.  

Depends on the country, and what they can do.  An authoritarian regime like China's....dude.  They have his money hostage.  They could issue a unilateral order freezing transfers of certain types of accounts (making it limited to his type), etc.  And then use that as leverage.  

Letting a foreign power have your money by the balls gives them leverage over you.  This isn't hard.

[gsoda3 3,236]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Depends on the country, and what they can do.  An authoritarian regime like China's....dude.  They have his money hostage.  They could issue a unilateral order freezing transfers of certain types of accounts (making it limited to his type), etc.  And then use that as leverage.  

Letting a foreign power have your money by the balls gives them leverage over you.  This isn't hard.

they could freeze his money you're right.  the amount would have to be a considerable sum to worry about though.  speaking strictly to DD's question, i'm much more worried about a president having significant business interests in another country than a president having a bank account tied to that country's business.  the size of the account is a factor of the business.  

[Brisketexan 104,619]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

they could freeze his money you're right.  the amount would have to be a considerable sum to worry about though.  speaking strictly to DD's question, i'm much more worried about a president having significant business interests in another country than a president having a bank account tied to that country's business.  the size of the account is a factor of the business.  

Both are relevant for the same reasons.  The President's financial success is under the control of a foreign power.  And if you think that Trump wouldn't flip the fuck out and cede the State of Oregon to China in order to protect $15 million in a Chinese bank, you haven't been paying attention.  He'd sacrifice half the country for 50 bucks.

[gsoda3 3,236]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Both are relevant for the same reasons.  The President's financial success is under the control of a foreign power.  And if you think that Trump wouldn't flip the fuck out and cede the State of Oregon to China in order to protect $15 million in a Chinese bank, you haven't been paying attention.  He'd sacrifice half the country for 50 bucks.

I'm not speaking specifically about Trump.  I'm just saying I can see scenarios where there is President with foreign business interests who have foreign accounts and that it wouldn't be the fact of having foreign accounts which causes concern but the size and extent of the business interests.  

 

Now to speak specifically about Trump, I don't think for a second he would sacrifice a penny of profit for the good of the country.  I give him no credit.  In this case though, with the facts the NYT article presented and the accompanying documentation Ana linked and until new details emerge, it looks like Trump International has done everything correctly with regard to this account.    

[David Dennison 18,657]

11 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i asked why DD had a problem with presidents who had interest in companies with foreign bank accounts and you're talking about something else.  

 

for the record i do think a president with active business interests is a problem.  i don't think having foreign business accounts with foreign denominated currency in that locale makes it any worse.  hope that helps clear it up.

Having an interest in companies with foreign bank accounts leads to all sorts of issues when it comes to making foreign policy decisions, running the gamut from sanctions to basic diplomacy.

Also, if the accounts exist in a nation state led by a totalitarian regime, you can be sure that the government knows everything about those accounts and the account holders. That information amounts to intelligence which can, in theory, be used by a foreign nation to compromise a head of state who has business interests there.

Again, why does the president of the United States have any foreign business interests?

[Brisketexan 104,619]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

I'm not speaking specifically about Trump.  I'm just saying I can see scenarios where there is President with foreign business interests who have foreign accounts and that it wouldn't be the fact of having foreign accounts which causes concern but the size and extent of the business interests.  

 

Now to speak specifically about Trump, I don't think for a second he would sacrifice a penny of profit for the good of the country.  I give him no credit.  In this case though, with the facts the NYT article presented and the accompanying documentation Ana linked and until new details emerge, it looks like Trump International has done everything correctly with regard to this account.    

IDGAF if someone still has $100 on deposit with Deutschbahn for a refunded train ticket.  $10,000 is the amount that requires disclosure under US law.  That's good enough for me.

And even if Trump International did everything correctly, you and I know this stinks to high heaven.  He's a crook, who can't be trusted with anything valued at over a nickel.  

[jimmyjazz 45,558]

Gah, I tire of the constant machinations trying to justify Trump's business dealings.

Jimmy Carter put a fucking PEANUT FARM in a blind trust when he became President.  Donald Trump has shit raking in revenue all over the fucking world, including in one if not both of our two biggest nemeses, and the usual suspects are bending over backwards to define the parameters in order to throw a smokescreen and saying it's no big deal.

Sometimes you really need to observe the fucking forest and stop bothsides-ing the trees.

Edited October 21, 2020 by jimmyjazz

[Anastasis 23,395]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Gah, I tire of the constant machinations trying to justify Trump's business dealings.

I think that if we cut through the right out nonsense (OMG Trump funneled 17MM through an undisclosed chinese bank account while President!!!), and stuck to the actual facts it would help.  The shit trump actually does in real life is enough to identify the ethical challenges as they relate to leading the executive branch, even when they are disclosed "by the book".  There is really no need to huff the twitter nonsense to get there. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Anastasis

[jimmyjazz 45,558]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I think that if we cut through the right out nonsense (OMG Trump funneled 17MM through an undisclosed chinese bank account while President!!!), and stuck to the actual facts it would help.  The shit trump actually does in real life is enough to identify the ethical challenges as they relate to leading the executive branch, even when they are disclosed "by the book".  There is really no need to huff the twitter nonsense to get there. 

It's a beating.  I'm not a Big 6 auditor.  I don't have to scour the books to know that something is rotten in Denmark China.  Kudos to you if your motivations are the pure pursuit of knowledge.  There is a reason this shit is not cool, and plenty on this thread have already laid it out in detail, but no, we're now diving into finance law because surly just has to surly. 

Carry on.

[Hmbre97 6,297]

How about we just don't elect a president ever again that has significant business dealings all over the world that could influence his decision making, deal?

[gsoda3 3,236]

18 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Having an interest in companies with foreign bank accounts leads to all sorts of issues when it comes to making foreign policy decisions, running the gamut from sanctions to basic diplomacy.

Also, if the accounts exist in a nation state led by a totalitarian regime, you can be sure that the government knows everything about those accounts and the account holders. That information amounts to intelligence which can, in theory, be used by a foreign nation to compromise a head of state who has business interests there.

Again, why does the president of the United States have any foreign business interests?

i agree with you if you put it like that instead of how i read what you wrote originally.

[TwiceHorn 31,276]

2 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

How about we just don't elect a president ever again that has significant business dealings all over the world that could influence his decision making, deal?

And if we do, s/he has to make a more than half-hearted, half-assed effort to divest himself of all of these holdings.

[gsoda3 3,236]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's a beating.  I'm not a Big 6 auditor.  I don't have to scour the books to know that something is rotten in Denmark China.  Kudos to you if your motivations are the pure pursuit of knowledge.  There is a reason this shit is not cool, and plenty on this thread have already laid it out in detail, but no, we're now diving into finance law because surly just has to surly. 

Carry on.

i'm a finance guy and have been doing this for a long time so that's just how i think.  i can't stand inaccuracies and extrapolations.  my day job (when i'm not posting) is to identify those. 

[Brisketexan 104,619]

3 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

How about we just don't elect a president ever again that IS IN DEBT UP TO HIS FUCKING EYEBALLS IN CONNECTION WITH significant business dealings all over the world that could influence his decision making, deal?

FIF common fucking sense.  If foreign lenders have you by the balls, it's a horrible, no good, very bad idea to give you ANY fucking power.

For fuck's sake, we won't grant security clearance to corporal Jones from Turdlick, Iowa if he has too much credit card debt.  WHY?  DEBT MAKES YOU VULNERABLE TO MANIPULATION.

We won't give someone security clearance necessary to work on the classified exhaust system of a fucking fighter plane if they owe $50k to Visa, but we gave the nuclear codes to a guy who owes somewhere from $400 million to $1 billion, much of it to foreign creditors.  The fucking insanity.

[Rimbo 25,783]

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

i'm not trying to instigate anything by asking, but what conflicts of interest could arise from just having a foreign bank account?  i can come up with hypotheticals from having international business interests etc but just having foreign bank accounts i can't think of any realistic scenarios.  that said having int business interests almost requires foreign bank accounts so maybe that's what you mean?

"You will make this your policy or your money disappears."

Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey. This ain't rocket surgery.

[wildcat09 29,252]

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

I'm not speaking specifically about Trump.  I'm just saying I can see scenarios where there is President with foreign business interests who have foreign accounts and that it wouldn't be the fact of having foreign accounts which causes concern but the size and extent of the business interests.  

 

Now to speak specifically about Trump, I don't think for a second he would sacrifice a penny of profit for the good of the country.  I give him no credit.  In this case though, with the facts the NYT article presented and the accompanying documentation Ana linked and until new details emerge, it looks like Trump International has done everything correctly with regard to this account.    

No President should have private business interests. This shit isn't hard.

[jimmyjazz 45,558]

One need not know that Newton's 2nd Law says "the sum of the forces on an object equals the time rate of change of that object's momentum" to understand that if I drop a large rock on your head it will probably hurt.

[Dahobbs 17,447]

5 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Nice humblebrag.  

[ChiTownDoc 21,101]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

We won't give someone security clearance necessary to work on the classified exhaust system of a fucking fighter plane if they owe $50k to Visa, but we gave the nuclear codes to a guy who owes somewhere from $400 million to $1 billion, much of it to foreign creditors.  The fucking insanity.

This really sums it all up.  Fuck everything.  But mostly his enablers.  Fuck them to hell.  Zero mercy for those left hanging when their orange god is thrown out of the WH on his fat ass. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

The funniest thing about this debate is it’s not like Trump has some secret account in Switzerland or Norway.  It is literally communist China, as President of the United States.  I still can’t believe this is real. 

[TexLonghorn 5,592]

"Of the taxes Donald Trump pays, he may be sending more to foreign governments than he pays in the United States."  

Edited October 21, 2020 by TexLonghorn

[C-Man 27,053]

20 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Which makes me wonder about Giuliani's laptop nonsense.

The laptop the Russians gave him?