Abbott being Abbott

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Gotta say, I wasn't expecting Annie's first unequivocal position in the history of surly to be a religious stance on a health issue.

I agree. But Life comes at you fast. If you don’t stop to look around once in awhile. You might miss it.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

2 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Given that the bible is a unreliable, non-credible piece of fiction, that's not a particularly relevant point.

Who is opposed to abortion except on religious grounds? If you can introduce me to an anti-abortionist who doesn’t base their opinion on both a misunderstanding of science and their own scripture, I’d like to hear how they justify it.

[Brisketexan 105139]

I've argued multiple times that we should focus the discussion on the repeated abortions. I've cited MMWR statistics regarding ~16% of all abortions being performed as the 3+ abortion for that individual. About 6% are the fourth go round. That is simply unacceptable in a modern society. 
 
But the reality is that nobody really wants to move the needle.  It's all just political posturing. 

That.....is complete and utter bullshit.

A significant percentage - I suspect a large majority - of people who believe that abortion should remain legal ALSO strongly believe that we should have 1) real-world sex education and 2) readily available, free/cheap contraception. Both of which would dramatically reduce abortions.

It’s absolutely political posturing....on the mis-named “pro life” side (most of those same folks love them some executions, and don’t give a rat’s ass about a human life once it’s born, and especially if it is brown and literally running for its life - Catholics excepted, they are actually morally consistent). The rest of us would largely like it to be, yep, safe, legal, and rare. Which we might get, if we had real sex ed and contraception.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

That.....is complete and utter bullshit.

A significant percentage - I suspect a large majority - of people who believe that abortion should remain legal ALSO strongly believe that we should have 1) real-world sex education and 2) readily available, free/cheap contraception. Both of which would dramatically reduce abortions.

It’s absolutely political posturing....on the mis-named “pro life” side (most of those same folks love them some executions, and don’t give a rat’s ass about a human life once it’s born, and especially if it is brown and literally running for its life - Catholics excepted, they are actually morally consistent). The rest of us would largely like it to be, yep, safe, legal, and rare. Which we might get, if we had real sex ed and contraception.

This.

[Anastasis 23469]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

That.....is complete and utter bullshit.

The cited statistics are realer than real. And stable year over year, no matter what faction is in charge. 

[Captainant 27667]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Speaking of broke brains. No one is saying that. 

You are saying that having babies is what empowers women, no? Is that an incorrect inference from "turning empowering female qualities around life giving on their head"from your previous post?

The contrapositive to that is that not having children makes women less empowered.

[tantric superman 4667]

14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I've argued multiple times that we should focus the discussion on the repeated abortions. I've cited MMWR statistics regarding ~16% of all abortions being performed as the 3+ abortion for that individual. About 6% are the fourth go round. That is simply unacceptable in a modern society. 

People who try to destroy democracy, policies which promote pollution and destruction of the planet, violent religious fanatacism, the conglomeration of wealth in the hands of the very few when poverty still exits -- these are unacceptable in modern society and we should focus policy on these types of issues.

Individuals who are irresponsible and have too many abortions -- we should provide counseling and education to decrease the instances of such activity.   

 

[Anastasis 23469]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

You are saying that having babies is what empowers women, no? Is that an incorrect inference from "turning empowering female qualities around life giving on their head"from your previous post?

The contrapositive to that is that not having children makes women less empowered.

Try reading comprehension. 

[workswithseed 2106]

3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Who is opposed to abortion except on religious grounds? If you can introduce me to an anti-abortionist who doesn’t base their opinion on both a misunderstanding of science and their own scripture, I’d like to hear how they justify it.

You don't think atheist oppose abortion as well?

[Brisketexan 105139]

The cited statistics are realer than real. And stable year over year, no matter what faction is in charge. 

I did not say that the frequency of repeat abortions is bullshit. I said that your ultimate conclusion is bullshit. It is. And you should be fucking embarrassed to have posted it.

[hookemATL 11734]

It should be like golf. Each woman gets one mulligan abortion (per 9 holes). 
 

After that any unwanted babies can be sent to the mines to serve as foodstuffs for the orcs and goblins. 
 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by hookemATL
Dead babies...dead dead dead babies...aren’t much fun!

[Anastasis 23469]

1 minute ago, tantric superman said:

Individuals who are irresponsible and have too many abortions -- we should provide counseling and education to decrease the instances of such activity.   

Some common ground. If we focus on the 3+ it's about 75k per year to start with. 

[staboner 4969]

after reading the last few pages i have decided I am now pro abortion

 

[Anastasis 23469]

 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I did not say that the frequency of repeat abortions is bullshit. I said that your ultimate conclusion is bullshit. It is. And you should be fucking embarrassed to have posted it.

I am sure that you are quite concerned in the abstract. 

[StassneyHorn 6575]

This is why I only have sex when I want to procreate.

[tantric superman 4667]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Catholics excepted, they are actually morally consistent

I think you are being a bit cavalier with this statement. Their stance on abortion has increased poverty and pain and suffering in the world.  I don't think their position is moral, and I'm not sure with what you are trying to establish it as being consistent with.

I think mainline, practicing Catholics hide behind their position the way they do about more prohibitions in the Church.  They simply ignore them.  Most don't appear to be hypocritical about them, because they remain silent when they are involved in abortions.  And for those who speak out in favor of criminalizing or prohibiting abortion, they hide behind the numerical power of the Catholic church. 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by tantric superman

[Anastasis 23469]

12 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Who is opposed to abortion except on religious grounds?

Anyone want to take this one?  

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

6 minutes ago, hookemATL said:

It should be like golf. Each woman gets one mulligan abortion (per 9 holes). 

9 holes? By my count that takes 3 women. 

[Anastasis 23469]

2 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

This is why I only have sex when I want to procreate.

[Beau Vine 54230]

14 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Who is opposed to abortion except on religious grounds? If you can introduce me to an anti-abortionist who doesn’t base their opinion on both a misunderstanding of science and their own scripture, I’d like to hear how they justify it.

Trumper friend of mine who was adopted at birth.

[Brisketexan 105139]

 
I am sure that you are quite concerned in the abstract. 

I don’t think even you know what you meant by this. It’s just more embarrassing bullshittery.

I want a lot fewer abortions. I want women to have control over their bodies. I want healthier outcomes - mentally and physically - for all concerned. Shocker of shockers, non-magical thinking sex ed along with free/nearby free contraception is a proven path to getting there. Nothing abstract about it.

I think you are being a bit cavalier with this statement. Their stance on abortion has increased poverty and pain and suffering in the world.  I don't think their position is moral, and I'm not sure with what you are trying to establish it as being consistent with.
I think mainline, practicing Catholics hide behind their position the way they do about more prohibitions in the Church.  They simply ignore them.  Most aren't hypocritical about them, because they remain silent.  And for those who speak out in favor of criminalizing or prohibiting abortion, they hide behind the numerical power of the Catholic church. 
 

Oh....plenty of Catholics fucking suck in that respect, including plenty within the power structure. But the Catholic Church also has some of the people who most directly practice 1) being anti-death penalty, 2) acting to protect the lives and health of immigrants, and 3) being anti abortion, in ways that support pregnant women and don’t attack and shame them. I have actually seen all of those in action, rubber meets the road type stuff, I’ve also seen plenty of abuses and cruelty from the church and its members on those same issues, of course.

[Brisketexan 105139]

 
I am sure that you are quite concerned in the abstract. 

I don’t think even you know what you meant by this. It’s just more embarrassing bullshittery.

I want a lot fewer abortions. I want women to have control over their bodies. I want healthier outcomes - mentally and physically - for all concerned. Shocker of shockers, non-magical thinking sex ed along with free/nearby free contraception is a proven path to getting there. Nothing abstract about it.

I think you are being a bit cavalier with this statement. Their stance on abortion has increased poverty and pain and suffering in the world.  I don't think their position is moral, and I'm not sure with what you are trying to establish it as being consistent with.
I think mainline, practicing Catholics hide behind their position the way they do about more prohibitions in the Church.  They simply ignore them.  Most aren't hypocritical about them, because they remain silent.  And for those who speak out in favor of criminalizing or prohibiting abortion, they hide behind the numerical power of the Catholic church. 
 

Oh....plenty of Catholics fucking suck in that respect, including plenty within the power structure. But the Catholic Church also has some of the people who most directly practice 1) being anti-death penalty, 2) acting to protect the lives and health of immigrants, and 3) being anti abortion, in ways that support pregnant women and don’t attack and shame them. I have actually seen all of those in action, rubber meets the road type stuff, I’ve also seen plenty of abuses and cruelty from the church and its members on those same issues, of course.

[tantric superman 4667]

25 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Who is opposed to abortion except on religious grounds? If you can introduce me to an anti-abortionist who doesn’t base their opinion on both a misunderstanding of science and their own scripture, I’d like to hear how they justify it.

Seems to me the only legitimate argument to prohibit some or all abortions is favoring the life of the developing fetus over the liberty and potentially the life of the mother.  Roe v. Wade set out the conflict in non-religious terms. 

It's a weak argument to me, and it makes a mockery of the liberty interest outlined in the constitution, but it has the benefit of not being based on a man made religion.  It allows for the weighing of interests. 

To me, the only issues that should have followed the original Roe v. Wade decision were issues related to late term abortions where there was no evidence of danger to the woman, no health issues related to the fetus, and the woman had plenty of time to make a decision within the confines of pre-viability.  I could certainly see some non-religious logic to a state having an interest in protecting a viable fetus. 

But instead the anti-abortion folks focused on trying to control women and limit abortions in earlier stages.  It makes sense, because abusing young women is a lot easier than proving a case against a doctor who is lawyered up.       

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by tantric superman

[tantric superman 4667]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh....plenty of Catholics fucking suck in that respect, including plenty within the power structure. But the Catholic Church also has some of the people who most directly practice 1) being anti-death penalty, 2) acting to protect the lives and health of immigrants, and 3) being anti abortion, in ways that support pregnant women and don’t attack and shame them. I have actually seen all of those in action, rubber meets the road type stuff, I’ve also seen plenty of abuses and cruelty from the church and its members on those same issues, of course.

So the Catholics are sort of like the Susan Collinses of legitimizing a harmful, poverty increasing, female disenfranchising policy? 

(I kid -- I get your point.)

Edited May 20, 2021 by tantric superman

[tx 3 putt 76957]

maybe this pushes more females to the polls 

[wildcat09 29354]

2 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Manslpaining what it means to be a woman to a woman is the final test before you get your Libertarian black belt (every Libertarian obviously takes karate classes) 

Actually, accurately reciting each state’s age of consent laws is the final test before the black belt.

[tantric superman 4667]

2 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

maybe this pushes more females to the polls 

and Catholics.

[totallynotabuttpirate 5400]

4 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

maybe this pushes more females to the polls 

[Anastasis 23469]

Some posts get the neg and the "go fuck yourself" when you challenge the empowering action of abortion, other posts don't when the pole is involved. 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

33 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Trumper friend of mine who was adopted at birth.

What’s his religion?

[Captainant 27667]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What’s his religion?

MAGA

[workswithseed 2106]

4 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What’s his religion?

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2017/10/19/atheists-case-against-abortion-respect-human-rights

I am an atheist, a 29-year-old woman, well-educated at secular institutions, and I lean liberal on many issues, including same-sex marriage and climate change.

I am also a dedicated pro-life activist, working to make abortion unthinkable.

 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

What about a 3302 week abortion? Asking for an oak tree?

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

4 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

HEB doesn’t require masks either. He goes to Wal-Mart to scope out hot ass.

Based on the pictures of the person he was fucking in a tent last summer, trolling WalMart for hot ass is a definite improvement.

[Born to Run 6569]

Some posts get the neg and the "go fuck yourself" when you challenge the empowering action of abortion, other posts don't when the pole is involved. 

I generally respect your opinions. What about abortions after sexual assault. Are you familiar with how many women experience sexual assault?
In my experience it's most over the course of a lifetime. Likely 70 plus percent. What then?

[RomaVicta 29907]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Some posts get the neg and the "go fuck yourself" when you challenge the empowering action of abortion,

Empowering action of abortion? Other than those intentionally lying about about the pro-choice people, I've never once heard anyone speak of actually having an abortion as an empowering or even positive experience.

The empowerment is in the choice of what to do with your own body. For females, this is operating without Big Brother ordering you to give birth or wanting to require you to look at a sonogram prior to the procedure. 

The empowerment is removing the state from a female citizen's decision in this most personal of matters.

Your use of the phrase "empowering action of abortion" is a pretty vile distortion of why many of us want to get the government out of the examination room. 

Whoa, I'm talking about restraining government. Barry Goldwater agreed with this position on abortion. That he and I agree is another argument that this debate went south when one party (GQP) decided to pursue the church vote in direct contradiction to what they claimed to stand for.

Please clarify your intent with the quoted phrase. Do you actually believe that having an abortion is an act celebrated by the woman in question? Do you think pro-choice people all give a cheer when another pregnancy ends? That's pretty much dehumanizing your political opponent which is not usually your style.

I'm guessing that the only argument against choice is founded in emotion rather than rationality which leaves an able debater with a problem.

[workswithseed 2106]

41 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

I generally respect your opinions. What about abortions after sexual assault. Are you familiar with how many women experience sexual assault?
In my experience it's most over the course of a lifetime. Likely 70 plus percent. What then?

He's talking about repeat offenders right now, and to hopefully get the rest later if possible.

As to your stats, I'll make sure to use better stats than the piece of paper and gum that @hayden_horn try to peddle.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/

 

Objective: We attempted to determine the national rape-related pregnancy rate and provide descriptive characteristics of pregnancies that result from rape.

Study design: A national probability sample of 4008 adult American women took part in a 3-year longitudinal survey that assessed the prevalence and incidence of rape and related physical and mental health outcomes.

Results: The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year."

 

[High Plains Drifter 11049]

9 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Private citizens???

Y’all about to have packs of vigilante abortion hunters skulking around.
 

 

i can't wait until some R asshole gets caught paying for an abortion, and 10 million Texans sue his ass.

 

edit: I wonder if that provision is so that someone who goes to New Mexico to get an abortion can still be harassed and sued in Texas?

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by High Plains Drifter
abortions

[SydneyCarton 48106]

11 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

There’s going to be a lot of rich white girls flying to Santa Fe every year. 

I’d love to see surrounding states pass laws that women from out of state flying in for abortions have to make their names public in a published database. Fuck medical privacy, apparently, so let’s open up the lawsuits to the wealthy and everyone around them. At least make them sweat going to Mexico for an abortion. 

[BearSchlong 8093]

Sure wish the GQP would actually try to fix bigger problems. Moral or religious POVs on the abortion issue are largely meaningless.

Anecdotal, but my wife works for CPS and many poor women generally want more children because it means more public assistance.

Others will simply get illegal abortions.

Fact - At this moment there's a crisis in Texas, more CWOPs (child without placement) than available foster homes. Literally CPS workers babysitting thousands of children at state offices because there's no alternative.

You want barbarism?

Fact - Texas is in contempt of a federal judge who stepped in and demanded Texas protect children from widespread sexual abuse in the foster care system.

Fact - Mississippi leads the nation as the state with the least access to abortion services, and the state with the highest number of Google searches "How to do an at home abortion."

Source -

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

6 hours ago, workswithseed said:

You don't think atheist oppose abortion as well?

This is framing the argument from a flawed perspective. The opposite of oppose is implied that one is for. Few people are for abortions. What they are objecting to are unwanted/unintended pregnancies. Something that the State should have zero involvement with unless the State intends to fund ALL prenatal care and supportive maternal healthcare. Which they don't. Hell, they don't care about preschool/daycare or any other type of care during a global pandemic so why should this be any different?

Fascist and authoritarian factions often talk about motherhood and families in glowing idealistic terms. It gains a lot of traction because it sounds so wonderful. And it would be were it actually supported for the populace at large. What is left unsaid is that those idealistic phrases are not for unprotected classes, nor are they even for the protected class who happen to be the wrong gender--that is, women. Always it comes from a perspective of male emancipation and ajudication and punishment. It completely ignores the reality of unwanted and unintended pregnancies. These same authoritarian groups laud a white male 17 year old grabbing a weapon to protect property in another state. Do women need to invoke a similar doctrine even if it is against their biological nature to do so?  If the state is going to treat their body as property, do women need to defend themselves against an intruder? Sounds harsh, doesn't it? It's terrible and no one sane would actually want that.

If people truly wanted to lessen abortions, there has always been something few men are willing to consider.

Gabrielle Blair has a very on point essay "On Men and Abortion: All Unwanted Pregnancies are Caused by Irresponsible Ejaculations

Click on the tweet to read the entire essay.

[BearSchlong 8093]

Also, Speaker Phelan is Catholic, from a catholic family. His uncle is one of my closest friends. His wife Kim has been Ad Litem for numerous Texas children. Looking forward to discussing this with him next time I bump into him at Academy. Dade is actually one of CPS biggest advocates.

Fuck the GQP and Abbot for backslapping on the moral high ground while pouring gasoline on a different fire.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

The lawsuit by private citizens component reinforces the on brand cruelty and intimidation of the platform. It is why I brought in the fascist argument above.

[SydneyCarton 48106]

7 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Given that the bible is a unreliable, non-credible piece of fiction, that's not a particularly relevant point.

It’s relevant to a lot of people, whether you think that’s logical or not. Therefore it’s going to get brought up as evidence. I think that point has merit. 

[Bookman 4639]

Can we abort people who support failed-businessmen for President of the United States?

[DDD Dad 14339]

9 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Some common ground. If we focus on the 3+ it's about 75k per year to start with. 

Nah, we should just sterilize them.  "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."  OWH

[Anastasis 23469]

3 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

I generally respect your opinions. What about abortions after sexual assault. Are you familiar with how many women experience sexual assault?
In my experience it's most over the course of a lifetime. Likely 70 plus percent. What then?

Sexual assault is clearly awful, and I don't think that there are any easy answers other than to do whatever we can to provide support and opportunity for healing to the person that has been assaulted. In the context of the abortion discussion, again, I think that there are areas where people who approach the issue quite differently should be able to find some common ground and alignment. I pointed out one of those particular areas. 

[tantric superman 4667]

9 hours ago, workswithseed said:

I am also a dedicated pro-life activist, working to make abortion unthinkable.

You seem like you'd be great at unthinking.

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

8 hours ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Based on the pictures of the person he was fucking in a tent last summer, trolling WalMart for hot ass is a definite improvement.

Bad form attacking the looks of a poster's wife.

[wildcat09 29354]

"Look ma'am, I know you've been raped and are now carrying your rapists child, but I'm here to support you! Oh, no, sorry, I can't help you get an abortion, I'm here to make sure you don't get one. But I want to help you heal!"