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Pope Francis supports Gay Civil Unions

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Orale

Orale 1087

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An interesting story because it will likely have significant long-term effects on the views of religious folks. 

Pope Francis, in Shift for Church, Voices Support for Same-Sex Civil Unions

The comments, made in a new documentary, are the strongest yet from a pontificate that has taken a more tolerant and inclusive tone.

Pope Francis, who since the beginning of his pontificate has taken a more tolerant tone toward homosexuality, appeared to break with the position of the Roman Catholic Church by supporting civil unions for same-sex couples, according to remarks Francis made in a new documentary that debuted in Rome on Wednesday.

Speaking about pastoral outreach and care for people who identified as L.G.B.T., Francis directly addresses the issue of civil unions in the film.

“What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered,” Francis said amid remarks in which he otherwise reiterated his support for gay people as children of God. “I stood up for that.”

It was not immediately clear when Francis made those remarks, but Evgeny Afineevsky, the director of the documentary, ‘‘Francesco,’’ said that Francis made the remarks directly to him for the film.

Church teaching considers homosexual acts “intrinsically disordered” and the church is opposed to gay marriage.

In 2003, under the pontificate of Pope John Paul II, the church’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then led by the future Pope Benedict XVI, issued “Considerations regarding proposals to give legal recognition to unions between homosexual persons,” in which it wrote, “The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”

Matteo Bruni, a spokesman for the Vatican, declined to comment until he had seen the movies and the pope’s remarks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/world/europe/pope-francis-same-sex-civil-unions.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

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Huckleberry

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Seems like a strategically sound decision for continued Church relevance and tradition to me. By supporting civil unions for gay people everywhere in the world the Catholic Church can guarantee that they are never expected to perform a gay marriage.

Total win-win, the fact that bishops are freaking out makes perfect sense.

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NameAlreadyInUse

NameAlreadyInUse 5113

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Funny thing is, if the Church and conservative politicians would've gotten on this train 15 years ago when we asked for it, chances are that's where we'd be today in the US, and the gays would for the most part be happy with it.  Sure, you'd periodically hear from me and others that wow it sure would be nice if the state saw us a married instead of this separate but equal thing, but it was always about the rights more than it was the title.  

This is yet another instance where conservatives just can't learn their lesson.  Sometimes it makes more sense to give a little in the short term to keep the pressure from overwhelming you. When you stand too staunchly in the way of progress, don't be surprised when you get steamrolled, and now you are forced to move towards the position you were absolutely against yesterday just in an effort to maintain any kind of relevance. 

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Napoleon

Napoleon 8686

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10 hours ago, Dark Horse said:

Cool Pope still desperately trying to keep Catholicism relevant after all the child abuse and cover ups. 


Nearly 80% of the Supreme Court of the United States and probably the next US president is another way to keep it relevant. 

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Napoleon

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4 minutes ago, Born to Run said:
20 minutes ago, Napoleon said:

Nearly 80% of the Supreme Court of the United States and probably the next US president is another way to keep it relevant. 

Yeah, but yall have no recruits. - Former Catholic cheering the demise.

By "y'all", do you mean "Argentines"?

I'm not Catholic, though I did pick up citizenship from a Catholic-ish country, have been to a couple of Catholic weddings, and used to go into some Catholic churches when giving tours in Buenos Aires.

It's insane that in a country with only 20%[1] of the population being Catholic that they would make up nearly 80% of the final word on laws. IN-FUCKING-SANE!! Especially when 26%[2] of the country is "not religious" and yet that group doesn't have one fucking person on the Supreme Court... and we're totally not claiming the sitting president. We'll leave him with the Televangelists.

[1][2]- according to Wikipedia

Edited by Napoleon
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South Austin

South Austin 52518

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The Episcopal Church, which has traditionally been left of the Catholic Church for several decades, saw a significant number of parishes and parishioners break from their local Dioceses and national church over the gay issue about 15-20 years ago when they started ordaining openly gay priests.  They'll tell you it was over more fundamental ways of looking at scripture and tradition, but really, it was largely the gays.  Some parishes affiliated with divisions of the Anglican Church, other individuals migrated to the Catholic Church or other right-wing evangelical nondenominational churches. 

And a few years ago when the Diocese of Texas permitted its local parishes to adopt liturgies for civil unions between homosexuals and my church elected to adopt that liturgy, we lost a few more members over the issue.  Not a lot, but some.

I'm sure it'll be a slow process within the church following the Pope's remarks if there's actually a formal movement toward allowing homosexual civil unions, but I'll be interested to see if the Catholic Church eventually sees a similar exodus of members over this. 

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Blotto

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The Vatican said Monday that the Catholic Church would not bless same-sex unions, in a statement approved by Pope Francis that threatens to widen the chasm between the church and much of the LGBTQ community.

Explaining their decision in a lengthy note on Monday, the Holy See referred to homosexuality as a "choice," suggested it is sinful and said it "cannot be recognized as objectively ordered" to God's plans; a combative stance that is certain to disappoint millions of gay and lesbian Catholics around the world.

"The blessing of homosexual unions cannot be considered licit," the Vatican's top doctrinal office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in the statement.

God "does not and cannot bless sin," the statement added.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/15/europe/vatican-same-sex-unions-decision-intl/index.html

I would argue the bigger sin is covering up for all those priests that keep diddling little boys, but what do I know, I'm not Catholic. 

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'stache

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1 hour ago, Blotto said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/15/europe/vatican-same-sex-unions-decision-intl/index.html

I would argue the bigger sin is covering up for all those priests that keep diddling little boys, but what do I know, I'm not Catholic. 

Meh, not sure what people expected. Leaving the church behind is a decision that is consistently confirmed by these clowns.

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Guest Lobo

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I don't know what's more impressive actually.  Advocates being a 10 years ahead on progressive inclusion of basic human rights or being 500 years behind on everything good and decent.  

I mean, you have to give the Church credit.  Every single year for thousands of years, some scientific discovery, some social movement, some world event completely challenges the very foundation of the Church.  And every single year, they deploy a small army of monks, clergy, theologians, and bishops to go and pour over thousands of years of church documents, writings, and texts to justify how and why they are going to mold their belief set around this tectonic shift in global norms; and then if and how they can condemn it.  Any other institution would have given up after 100 years and just joined modernity.  But not the Catholic Church.  The tenacity and stoicism would be impressive if it hadn't also killed so many people.  

Edited by Lobo
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David Dennison

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On 10/22/2020 at 8:09 AM, Tuco said:

83 year old virgin provides guidance on the relative validity of different types of sexual relationships and 1.2 billion followers actually give a shit. 

There is something wrong with that system.  

 

Celibate (maybe), but I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of Catholic priests aren't virgins, Francis included.

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Tuco

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4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Celibate (maybe), but I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of Catholic priests aren't virgins, Francis included.

I'd say that's a distinction with little difference.  Pope Francis, for all his intelligence, earnest study, and fine moral character, does not understand anything beyond the outline and stereotypes of a mature, sexual relationship.  None of them do.  Not a single fucking one of them.  Yet, they set the rules on contraception, divorce, and gay marriage.  And people actually listen to them.  

I was raised Catholic.  I credit a scholarship to a Catholic high school to give me the stability to get into a good college.  I've known a lot of priests, and even corresponded with one for a few years.  Like any other profession, some are really good people and some are assholes.  But I would never listen to any of them when it comes to real life relationships.  You might as well take fashion advice from a blind man. 

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Satchel

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Many Catholic clergy understand perfectly because they experience the human condition earnest. Homosexual men have been ordained to the priesthood over millennia without dilemma and have served the Church faithfully. It is only recently that the Church has demurred when owning up to this undeniable fact. As much as I think Francis has been good for the Church, he still lacks the moral conviction needed to lead it to the point that discovery is not viewed as enemy to the Church.

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6169

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1 hour ago, Tuco said:

I'd say that's a distinction with little difference.  Pope Francis, for all his intelligence, earnest study, and fine moral character, does not understand anything beyond the outline and stereotypes of a mature, sexual relationship.  None of them do.  Not a single fucking one of them.  Yet, they set the rules on contraception, divorce, and gay marriage.  And people actually listen to them.  

I was raised Catholic.  I credit a scholarship to a Catholic high school to give me the stability to get into a good college.  I've known a lot of priests, and even corresponded with one for a few years.  Like any other profession, some are really good people and some are assholes.  But I would never listen to any of them when it comes to real life relationships.  You might as well take fashion advice from a blind man. 

Catholicism could do itself a really big favor if it gave priests the ability to marry again. If Francis did that it would be the biggest single positive reform passed by the church since its inception. I would also say go a step further and also allow priests to be openly homosexual and also have the right to marriage. If they are serving the same God that I am, and I would think they believe so, this is a necessary step. Shunning human beings because of their sexual orientation is a hindrance to the church as a whole. You are missing out on an integral part of the human experience when you do not have romantic relationships. 

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Guest Lobo

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Yeah, I always like the knee-jerk Catholic reaction to the notion of same sex unions/marriages, "Two men getting married?  Then what, huh?  A man can marry a dog?"  

Oh, okay.  Let's play that game to its logical conclusion.  If two grown, consenting men having sex bothers you...imagine how bothered the rest of us are by the idea of a man in a position of power mouth-fucking a non-consenting child, then telling that kid he'll burn in hell if he tells anybody about the anal stuff.  I don't want a man to marry a dog.  AND.....AND....ALSO...IN ADDITION TO THAT...I don't like priests raping children.  

"God created Adam and Eve...not Adam and Steve." Maybe so.  But Eve had identity issues, got some help and some surgeries...and now she's Steve.  Deal with it. 

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David Dennison

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1 hour ago, Tuco said:

I'd say that's a distinction with little difference.  Pope Francis, for all his intelligence, earnest study, and fine moral character, does not understand anything beyond the outline and stereotypes of a mature, sexual relationship.  None of them do.  Not a single fucking one of them.  Yet, they set the rules on contraception, divorce, and gay marriage.  And people actually listen to them.  

I was raised Catholic.  I credit a scholarship to a Catholic high school to give me the stability to get into a good college.  I've known a lot of priests, and even corresponded with one for a few years.  Like any other profession, some are really good people and some are assholes.  But I would never listen to any of them when it comes to real life relationships.  You might as well take fashion advice from a blind man. 

I agree with all of this.

The Catholic Church would be a greatly improved institution if it allowed priests to marry and if it ordained women.

There would still be a lot of work to do.

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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

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2 hours ago, Tuco said:

I'd say that's a distinction with little difference.  Pope Francis, for all his intelligence, earnest study, and fine moral character, does not understand anything beyond the outline and stereotypes of a mature, sexual relationship.  None of them do.  Not a single fucking one of them.  Yet, they set the rules on contraception, divorce, and gay marriage.  And people actually listen to them.  

I was raised Catholic.  I credit a scholarship to a Catholic high school to give me the stability to get into a good college.  I've known a lot of priests, and even corresponded with one for a few years.  Like any other profession, some are really good people and some are assholes.  But I would never listen to any of them when it comes to real life relationships.  You might as well take fashion advice from a blind man. 

Have to disagree with this specific point.  I agree the Catholic Church has made gross errors over the years.  I understand why they handled the sexual abuse scandal the way that they did but it still did not make it right. They should have been completely transparent in their investigations and should have admitted the issues publicly and routed out the bad offenders.

but, what you are asserting is that learned, intelligent individuals like the pope shouldn’t be able to dictate church positions on sexual issues because they take vows of celibacy.  I completely disagree. There are literally thousands of scientific sociological studies that address virtually every issue that the church deals with in these matters.  In addition, they have an almost unlimited supply of anecdotal evidence to pull from in their literally millions of conversations with men and women and married couples and members of LGBT community.  
 

I used to actually have pretty much the same opinion that you have. Especially when it comes to marriage. How would a priest know what it takes for a successful, happy marriage when they’ve never experienced it.  But the reality is, that they are actually more qualified than almost any other subset of people. The reason is that over thousands of years they have discussed marriage and marriage issues with literally millions of married couples. Certainly there are many common traits that are necessary for a successful marriage and Priess have heard all of the good and all of the bad.

Mike Leach never played football and yet is considered one of the best offensive minds in football maybe ever.  

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Tuco

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21 hours ago, David Dennison said:

I agree with all of this.

The Catholic Church would be a greatly improved institution if it allowed priests to marry and if it ordained women.

There would still be a lot of work to do.

I wonder how many women priests would tell a battered woman that she could either 1) stay with her abuser, or 2) divorce him, but it would be a sin to ever have sex again. 

Because that's advice offered by celibate old men who have "thousands of years" of providing marital directives.  

 

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