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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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wildcat09

wildcat09 29310

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

I take the same stance as the NYT as to whether the Trump tower meeting and the meeting with Putin amount to evidence of collusion:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/20/us/politics/russia-interference-election-trump-clinton.html

If Trump did collude with the Russians then why did the US leave the INF treaty?  Why is the US backing regime change in Venezuela?  Those actions are inconsistent with collusion as they are directly adverse to Russia's interests and you would assume they have compromising material on Trump if Trump if there was collusion.

The general answer to your question is that they don't require absolute 100% subservience so as to maintain a level of deniability. As to your specific examples, they wanted to dissolve the INF treaty so our pulling out wasn't against their interests, and they don't really give a shit about Venezuela and figure if we get involved they may even benefit from increased oil prices that result.

Your Times quote is fucking stupid by the way. Nobody has ever said they thought Trump was getting paid by Russia, and there's plenty of evidence that his campaign conspired with Russia's election interference. There may be no written contract entitled "Trump-Russia Election Collusion" that's been revealed, but that doesn't mean there's no evidence. And you should really know better than to repeat the same "no evidence" stupidity that hammer and his ilk parrot.

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Goredho
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Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
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liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6673

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, EMAWesome said:

You really need to go back and retake a high school civics class.  Circumstantial evidence is normally not allowed as presentable evidence in a court of law.  This board is more out of touch with reality than the Flat Earth Society.

Wait, doesn't this guy claim to be a lawyer? I'm so bookmarking this post.

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28730

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Also, its very possible that all Putin wanted in Trump is an idiot to mess things up in our system to diminish our position in the world. 

Guess what? He achieved that goal in spades. Everything else is just bonus. 

He's not finished and POTUS is still an asset under his control. 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The general answer to your question is that they don't require absolute 100% subservience so as to maintain a level of deniability. As to your specific examples, they wanted to dissolve the INF treaty so our pulling out wasn't against their interests, and they don't really give a shit about Venezuela and figure if we get involved they may even benefit from increased oil prices that result.

Your Times quote is fucking stupid by the way. Nobody has ever said they thought Trump was getting paid by Russia, and there's plenty of evidence that his campaign conspired with Russia's election interference. There may be no written contract entitled "Trump-Russia Election Collusion" that's been revealed, but that doesn't mean there's no evidence. And you should really know better than to repeat the same "no evidence" stupidity that hammer and his ilk parrot.

Russia was already violating the INF and our policy under Obama was basically to ignore those violations.  Russia does not want a new arms race with us as given the vast difference in resources between us and them such an arms race will not benefit them.  Do you think Russia wants the deployment of new INF missiles near their borders?  

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29848

Posted
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

I take the same stance as the NYT as to whether the Trump tower meeting and the meeting with Putin amount to evidence of collusion:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/20/us/politics/russia-interference-election-trump-clinton.html

If Trump did collude with the Russians then why did the US leave the INF treaty?  Why is the US backing regime change in Venezuela?  Those actions are inconsistent with collusion as they are directly adverse to Russia's interests and you would assume they have compromising material on Trump if Trump if there was collusion.

Your gamble that I wouldn't click the link didn't pay off. It almost did but not quite. From the fifth paragraph of the Sept. 2018 NYT article you link:

Quote

President Trump’s Twitter outbursts that it is all a “hoax” and a “witch hunt,” in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary, have taken a toll on public comprehension.

Your second point that the US does not conform every policy to known Russian interests is hardly proof of anything. Was Dillinger not a bank robber because some days he didn't rob banks?

 

Edited by RomaVicta
God is a grammarian judging people who can't punctuate.
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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45597

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Your second point that the US does not conform every policy to known Russian interests is hardly proof of anything. Was Dillinger not a bank robber because some days he didn't rob banks?

He was killed behind that theater in a hale of FBI gunfire. And do you know who tipped them off? His fucking girlfriend. All he wanted to do was go to the movies.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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Posted

If Trump were compromised I would expect that fact to be reflected in Trump's decisions which impinge upon Russia's interests.  But our foreign policy under Trump has not substantively deviated from a generic GOP admin's.  Look at his actions towards Iran, one of Russia's most important allies.  His admin is so monomaniacally determined to foment a military conflict with Iran they are driving a wedge between us and our European allies.

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

If Trump were compromised I would expect that fact to be reflected in Trump's decisions which impinge upon Russia's interests.  But our foreign policy under Trump has not substantively deviated from a generic GOP admin's.  Look at his actions towards Iran, one of Russia's most important allies.  His admin is so monomaniacally determined to foment a military conflict with Iran they are driving a wedge between us and our European allies.

Do you think Trump is working within a vacuum? Do you think the President has absolute power within our system? The foundation of your point is extremely flawed. 

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Captainant

Captainant 27523

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

If Trump were compromised I would expect that fact to be reflected in Trump's decisions which impinge upon Russia's interests.  But our foreign policy under Trump has not substantively deviated from a generic GOP admin's.  Look at his actions towards Iran, one of Russia's most important allies.  His admin is so monomaniacally determined to foment a military conflict with Iran they are driving a wedge between us and our European allies.

Not like we're lifting a shitload of sanctions and failing to implement lawfully passed sanctions or anything.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29848

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Well, he didn’t do anything as disgraceful as Helsinki, but let’s not act like we haven’t attempted to court a relationship with Putin and Russia for decades.

50-BD8-E45-DBD2-4-A17-A6-EE-91-FDAA16-D1

 

1-FEE044-D-9-F61-4914-AB3-D-04078066-BF6

 

Negged for inapt comparison and obfuscation. Having what you call a relationship with Russia and Putin is what other's call diplomacy. Your pictures of the restart button and the fishing trip do not indicate anything at all.

The Obama clip has been used by the rabid right and you seem to have lost any sort of objectivity about it's meaning beyond Obama is evil. He merely speaks a political truth that applies to all American candidates: you shouldn't be seen doing anything for or with a traditional enemy when running for office. Our gotcha system will make you out to be a red in addition to being a foreign-born, black Christian revolutionary, Muslim terrorist born with the middle name of Hussein.

I hate negging you, but there it is.

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28730

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Your gamble that I wouldn't click the link didn't pay off. It almost did but not quite. From the fifth paragraph of the Sept. 2018 NYT article you link:

Your second point that the US does not conform every policy to known Russian interests is hardly proof of anything. Was Dillinger not a bank robber because some days he didn't rob banks.

(Pssst...the person you're talking to doesn't speak the same language. You may as well try to reason with a rutabaga.)

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Winona's Big Orange Bevo

Winona's Big Orange Bevo 197

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

If Trump were compromised I would expect that fact to be reflected in Trump's decisions which impinge upon Russia's interests.  But our foreign policy under Trump has not substantively deviated from a generic GOP admin's.  Look at his actions towards Iran, one of Russia's most important allies.  His admin is so monomaniacally determined to foment a military conflict with Iran they are driving a wedge between us and our European allies.

You're supposing that Putin is such an honorable man. Read your last sentence again and tell me what Putin would want more. Defending Iran? For what gain?  Or further driving a wedge between the US and Europe. (NATO). HMMM?

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Yuk

Yuk 1526

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Lulz at Putin be held accountable by any treaty.

Russia is actually very sensitive to being held accountable.   They're bad actors, but the bad actors keep all their wealth offshore.  Sanctions (especially internationally unanimous ones) really threaten their whole system.  And their economy is dogshit.  Just attacking them in terms of the price of their oil exports can fuck with them really badly.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23366

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Just now, Yuk said:

Russia is actually very sensitive to being held accountable.   They're bad actors, but the bad actors keep all their wealth offshore.  Sanctions (especially internationally unanimous ones) really threaten their whole system.  And their economy is dogshit.  Just attacking them in terms of the price of their oil exports can fuck with them really badly.

Another tool we don't use as much as we should is calling him out publicly and that actually hurts him because he has a lot invested in managing his public image.  Just look at how Republicans have gone 180 on Putin over the last six years. 

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Another tool we don't use as much as we should is calling him out publicly and that actually hurts him because he has a lot invested in managing his public image.  Just look at how Republicans have gone 180 on Putin over the last six years. 

Re-set button, bruh

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23366

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2 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Re-set button, bruh

In his final news conference of the year, President Barack Obama emphasized that Russia cannot change or significantly weaken the U.S., adding that Russia is a smaller and weaker country.

He said Russia's economy "doesn't produce anything that anybody wants to buy," except oil, gas and arms. The only way Russia can affect the U.S., he said, is "if we lose track of who we are" and "abandon our values."

"Mr. Putin can weaken us just like he's trying to weaken Europe if we start buying into notions that it's OK to intimidate the press, or lock up dissidents or discriminate against people," he said.

When asked if he would specifically name Russian President Vladimir Putin as directly responsible for the election hacking, Obama said he wanted to give the intelligence community a chance to gather the information necessary. He added, however, that "not much happens in Russia without Vladimir Putin," reaffirming that the hacking happened at the highest levels of the Russian government.

"This is a pretty hierarchical operation," he said. "Last I checked, there's not a lot of debate and democratic deliberation, particularly when it comes to policies directed at the United States."

Obama reaffirmed his message of political unity and bipartisanship, urging the country to reunite across party lines to defend itself against Russia and others.

"Our vulnerability to Russia or any other foreign power is directly related to how divided, partisan, dysfunctional our political process is," he said. "That's the thing that makes us vulnerable."

On whether President-elect Donald Trump's comments about Russia and Putin embolden Russia, Obama said he would prefer to wait and see, in order to give Trump time to gather his team and become fully briefed on the issues.

The president referenced a survey that said that 37 percent of Republican voters approved of Putin, adding that "Ronald Reagan would roll over in his grave."

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23410

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

 

I hate negging you, but there it is.

It’s all good man. I was answering a question jimmy posed about the engagement of prior administrations. I realize this isn’t a place that embraces any diversity of perspective on this topic. I don’t believe in negs in the politics forum, but they don’t really bother me. It’s the nature of this board. Some people want an echo chamber. 

Edited by Anastasis
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wildcat09

wildcat09 29310

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Fozzz said:

If Trump were compromised I would expect that fact to be reflected in Trump's decisions which impinge upon Russia's interests.  But our foreign policy under Trump has not substantively deviated from a generic GOP admin's.  Look at his actions towards Iran, one of Russia's most important allies.  His admin is so monomaniacally determined to foment a military conflict with Iran they are driving a wedge between us and our European allies.

Think on this some more.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Fozzz said:

If Trump were compromised I would expect that fact to be reflected in Trump's decisions which impinge upon Russia's interests.  But our foreign policy under Trump has not substantively deviated from a generic GOP admin's.  Look at his actions towards Iran, one of Russia's most important allies.  His admin is so monomaniacally determined to foment a military conflict with Iran they are driving a wedge between us and our European allies.

 For Vlad, this is a two-fer.  1) Drive a wedge between the US and our allies, and 2) Use an unhinged idiot to enhance the perceived threat to Iran to drive more Russian arms sales to Tehran.

jeezus dude

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TexEx15

TexEx15 17493

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

Please spend the rest of your miserable life in jail you traitorous, fetid, unplugged refrigerator 

While the page was loading I couldn’t see whom you were referring to so I found myself wondering if it was Stone, Manafort, new Cohen info... so many to choose from and there you go throwing someone else in the mix.  Only the best people for Trump.

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45597

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

It’s all good man. I was answering a question jimmy posed about the engagement of prior administrations. I realize this isn’t a place that embraces any diversity of perspective on this topic. I don’t believe in negs in the politics forum, but they don’t really bother me. It’s the nature of this board. Some people want an echo chamber. 

I don't consider this an echo chamber at all.  There are lots of different opinions and certainly there are information streams brought in from all kinds of different sources.  If I wanted an echo chamber I'd go to facebook where it is literally designed that way. 

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Captainant

Captainant 27523

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, retread said:

Prosecutors in latest filing say that Stone communicated directly with Wikileaks - CNN

It's more damning than that, the filings say that he is being charged on the basis of they intercepted communication between him and wikileaks while executing a warrant against wikileaks. It's only six pages and a pretty quick read, you should read it for yourself

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