The Robert Mueller Investigation

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Right, like in 2018?

Want to add to it?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

 

Who doesn’t currently know or feel like the GOP and trump are one? Is there a segment of the population that would suddenly understand this after it fails in the senate?

The Mueller report is new and damaging information.   There's a reason Trump just plummeted in the polls even though everyone already knew he is a crook.   We need to make the GOP Senators side with him or against him on it. 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

Here's the bulk of what Sanders said (it's long, but important):

"At the end of the day, what is most important to me is to see that Donald Trump is not re-elected president, and I intend to do everything I can to make sure that doesn't happen. 

"But if -- and this is an if -- if for the next year, year-and-a-half, going right into the heart of the election, all that the Congress is talking about is impeaching Trump and Trump, Trump, Trump, and Mueller, Mueller, Mueller, and we're not talking about health care, we're not talking about raising the minimum wage to a living wage, we're not talking about combating climate change, we're not talking about sexism and racism and homophobia, and all of the issues that concern ordinary Americans, what I worry about is that works to Trump's advantage."

Sanders went on to say that he supports the House conducting an investigation into some of the seemingly obstructive behaviors by Trump documented by Mueller and that, once that investigation concludes, he was open to reassessing. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/politics/bernie-sanders-impeachment-cnn-town-hall/index.html

[hobbes2702 13032]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Clinton is not Trump and Democrats are not Republicans. You are assuming that if Democrats act like Republicans, the result will be the similar. I'm not sure that's a good assumption.

No I’m not. I don’t fucking care about those already in his pocket. 

[Anastasis 23469]

2 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

The gamble is that everyday American's who don't follow politics are tired of hearing about Russia/Mueller and will resent the Democrats keeping it in the headlines instead of pivoting to healthcare, civility, tax cuts, etc. the things they are actually polling very well on. Impeachment would suck all of the oxygen out of what could be winning talking points. 

This.  More of the Russia Russia Russia only saturates the bandwidth of Americans.  Most are not politically engaged like the people who post here, and most track at a junior high comprehension level. The nuances of obstruction?  LOL. Somebody a couple years ago should have suggested that perseverating on a Russian collusion conspiracy narrative that seemed totally fantastical and improbable would end up being counterproductive, would saturate the political bandwidth,  and be a distraction from focusing on real issues.  

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Want to add to it?

No, I want to do something different and take the offensive against them.   

[DigglerontheHoof 21195]

23 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I’m not sure what you’re struggling with

pretty much everything

[GW Hayduke 1953]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

The Mueller report is new and damaging information.   There's a reason Trump just plummeted in the polls even though everyone already knew he is a crook.   We need to make the GOP Senators side with him or against him on it. 

My question still remains. You seem to be talking about hearings and public awareness rather than impeachment. They are different. 

[Biff Tannen 45678]

11 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Impeachment that dies in the Senate will put GOP Senators on Trump's sinking ship.  The potential rewards are much greater than the risks. 

 

10 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

The gamble is that everyday American's who don't follow politics are tired of hearing about Russia/Mueller and will resent the Democrats keeping it in the headlines instead of pivoting to healthcare, civility, tax cuts, etc. the things they are actually polling very well on. Impeachment would suck all of the oxygen out of what could be winning talking points. 

I agree with both of these.  Dammit.

[hobbes2702 13032]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Here's the bulk of what Sanders said (it's long, but important):

"At the end of the day, what is most important to me is to see that Donald Trump is not re-elected president, and I intend to do everything I can to make sure that doesn't happen. 

"But if -- and this is an if -- if for the next year, year-and-a-half, going right into the heart of the election, all that the Congress is talking about is impeaching Trump and Trump, Trump, Trump, and Mueller, Mueller, Mueller, and we're not talking about health care, we're not talking about raising the minimum wage to a living wage, we're not talking about combating climate change, we're not talking about sexism and racism and homophobia, and all of the issues that concern ordinary Americans, what I worry about is that works to Trump's advantage."

Sanders went on to say that he supports the House conducting an investigation into some of the seemingly obstructive behaviors by Trump documented by Mueller and that, once that investigation concludes, he was open to reassessing. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/politics/bernie-sanders-impeachment-cnn-town-hall/index.html

They could talk about all of that and impeach the president. 

And if Bernie says it then we should all just fall in line. He’s had such amazing political skills up this point.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

2 minutes ago, deech said:

Because they are going to be able to put together a working healthcare plan that the Senate will approve or the President will not veto?  Or any other policy they want?

Ummm, I'm referring to campaigning on healthcare, protections on preexisting conditions, expansion of medicare, etc. so that they can get elected and be the President and control the Senate. 

[hobbes2702 13032]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

This.  More of the Russia Russia Russia only saturates the bandwidth of Americans.  Most are not politically engaged like the people who post here, and most track at a junior high comprehension level. The nuances of obstruction?  LOL. Somebody a couple years ago should have suggested that perseverating on a Russian collusion conspiracy narrative that seemed totally fantastical and improbable would end up being counterproductive, would saturate the political bandwidth,  and be a distraction from focusing on real issues.  

Must be why his approval has continued to sink since the report came out.

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

No I’m not. I don’t fucking care about those already in his pocket. 

Well, I don't make the decisions. I am completely in favor of impeachment, but I understand exactly why Democratic leadership is hesitant to move forward. The politics could backfire in a way that costs them not only the presidency, but also the House and Senate. Or it go the other way completely. No one will know until November 2020.

One thing is certain. Impeachment will not remove Donald Trump from office.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, GW Hayduke said:

My question still remains. You seem to be talking about hearings and public awareness rather than impeachment. They are different. 

No, I'm talking very specifically about impeaching Trump and putting him on trial in the Senate, at which point Senators will have to vote. 

[lemonlime 5503]

So the Russians interfered with the 2016 election, and the president obstructed justice to cover it up?  And the answer is not to impeach because impeachment would politically help the president?  Meanwhile, Russia, whose interference is documented in an over 400 page report and a bunch of rage tweeting on witch hunt/hoax gets to interfere again in 2020.  Seems like a winning strategy on the dems' part to hope this all magically gets solved at the polls.

[Anastasis 23469]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

 Must be why his approval has continued to sink since the report came out.

Mission accomplished I guess?

[David Dennison 18856]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

So the Russians interfered with the 2016 election, and the president obstructed justice to cover it up?  And the answer is not to impeach because impeachment would politically help the president?  Meanwhile, Russia, whose interference is documented in an over 400 page report and a bunch of rage tweeting on witch hunt/hoax gets to interfere again in 2020.  Seems like a winning strategy on the dems' part to hope this all magically gets solved at the polls.

It's not magic. It's voting. 

Vote.

[hobbes2702 13032]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Mission accomplished I guess?

You claimed this was counter productive. The numbers we have show that is false. 

[David Dennison 18856]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

No, I'm talking very specifically about impeaching Trump and putting him on trial in the Senate, at which point Senators will have to vote. 

No they don't. They don't even have to have a trial.

[sachick 1189]

Impeachment that dies in the Senate will put GOP Senators on Trump's sinking ship.  The potential rewards are much greater than the risks. 

Basically what Elizabeth Warren said in her town hall yesterday. She’s in favor of starting an impeachment hearing. She said we need to get everyone’s vote on record. And I agree. Let all his supporters vote on the record saying Trumps actions are acceptable.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

 

I agree with both of these.  Dammit.

I'm not trying to make a definitive statement that it would backfire on the Democrats, just saying that if they don't take that possibility into account it would be a dereliction of duty on the part of the party, as their number 1 goal should be taking the White House in 2020. They might have to apply some game theory to get that done. 

[lemonlime 5503]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

It's not magic. It's voting. 

Vote.

Again, Russians hacked into voter rolls in many (all?) states.  There's active voter suppression going on by the GOP.  Gerrymandering.  Electoral college.  Long lines of many hours in many urban areas.  Purging of the voter rolls, mostly of non-white names.  

This shit needs to be exposed.  Not relying on magically winning elections.

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, lemonlime said:

Again, Russians hacked into voter rolls in many (all?) states.  There's active voter suppression going on by the GOP.  Gerrymandering.  Electoral college.  Long lines of many hours in many urban areas.  Purging of the voter rolls, mostly of non-white names.  

This shit needs to be exposed.  Not relying on magically winning elections.

It has been exposed. Widely.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No they don't. They don't even have to have a trial.

Sure they do. It's required by Senate rules:  https://www.law.cornell.edu/background/impeach/senaterules.pdf

[Anastasis 23469]

5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You claimed this was counter productive. The numbers we have show that is false. 

If the intended outcome was to gin up political points by catching a narcissist doing narcissist things while hamstringing him under the specter of a fictitious conspiracy related to coordination with Russia to undermine American democracy spun up by a dem operative and inserted into the FBI, I guess the whole thing was successful based on polling measures.  

Edited April 23, 2019 by Anastasis

[GW Hayduke 1953]

5 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

No, I'm talking very specifically about impeaching Trump and putting him on trial in the Senate, at which point Senators will have to vote. 

Mitch McConnell isn’t going to allow that to happen no matter what Dems do

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

The Dems don’t need to focus on Russia so much anymore.  They have 200 pages of detailed crimes committed by Trump to educate the public on.

FFS Mueller’s table of contents on Trump’s obstruction of justice is four pages long.  Even if you’re operating under the theory the President can’t criminally obstruct justice, his witness tampering, lying, coercive efforts to interfere, and orders to limit the scope or shut down the investigation are impeachable offenses.

It’s not the crime, it’s the cover up. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, GW Hayduke said:

Mitch McConnell isn’t going to allow that to happen no matter what Dems do

He can't without a vote, which has the same result.   But even better for Dems if they take a vote that doesn't even "clear" the president, but rather stonewalls having a trial altogether! 

[David Dennison 18856]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Sure they do. It's required by Senate rules:  https://www.law.cornell.edu/background/impeach/senaterules.pdf

They'll just change the rules. 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

He can't without a vote, which has the same result.   But even better for Dems if they take a vote that doesn't even "clear" the president, but rather stonewalls having a trial altogether! 

https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-senate-decline-try-impeachment-case

[hobbes2702 13032]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If the intended outcome was to gin up political points by catching a narcissist doing narcissist things while hamstringing him under the specter of a fictitious conspiracy related to coordination with Russia to undermine American democracy spun up by a dem operative and inserted into the FBI, I guess the whole thing was successful based on polling measures.  

Well seeing as it’s the only measurement we currently have... well that and the massive defeat in the midterms.

[DDD Dad 14336]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

[G]iven concerns regarding the origins of the investigation and potential IC abuses.  

Oh come on.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They'll just change the rules. 

As I said above, even better.   At least 50 GOP Senators vote to refuse a trial for an impeached, disgraced Trump, and Trump doesn't even get a vote not to convict out of it?   Where can I sign up?

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Well seeing as it’s the only measurement we currently have... well that and the massive defeat in the midterms.

Well, sort of massive. They gained seats in half of the Congress.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-senate-decline-try-impeachment-case

Did you actually read it? 

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

As I said above, even better.   At least 50 GOP Senators vote to refuse a trial for an impeached, disgraced Trump, and Trump doesn't even get a vote not to convict out of it?   Where can I sign up?

Call your congressperson.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

The bottom line is that hearings and investigations are ongoing and need to continue to minimize chances of a potus re-election. 

There is likely a lot that we need to understand behind trump .org finances, nra/pac foreign monies, the bamboozle behind security clearances, and family separations

[GW Hayduke 1953]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Did you actually read it? 

Yes

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Call your congressperson.

Mine is a Dem and has no sway over McConnell.   And McConnell won't get 50 Rs to change the rules requiring a trial in the Senate.   Moderate Rs will not want to let future impeached Dems off the hook to avoid a trial that they will already win. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Yes

Then you realize that it supports, rather than refutes, what I am saying. 

[hobbes2702 13032]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Oh come on.

Don’t bother.

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Mine is a Dem and has no sway over McConnell.   And McConnell won't get 50 Rs to change the rules requiring a trial in the Senate.   Moderate Rs will not want to let future impeached Dems off the hook to avoid a trial that they will already win. 

You need to call you congressperson to exert enough political pressure to get them to impeach.

That's the only way it's going to happen. The public has to force their hand.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

No GOP Senator wants to vote on convicting or acquitting Trump because that vote will forever define their legacy.  Sure, it might help them in the short term to protect Trump but 10 years from now it’s more likely to be a liability than an asset.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

You need to call you congressperson to exert enough political pressure to get them to impeach.

That's the only way it's going to happen. The public has to force their hand.

Oh I will. Called during the shutdown, and I'll be calling about this.  Feels good. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[GW Hayduke 1953]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Then you realize that it supports, rather than refutes, what I am saying. 

That Mitch will allow a trial in the senate? That isn’t going to happen unless the GOP switches and backs impeachment. If it is only the Dems that want it, he’ll just change the rules. 

The “trial” is being conducted in the house. Public awareness and investigations are going on there

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, GW Hayduke said:

That Mitch will allow a trial in the senate? That isn’t going to happen unless the GOP switches and backs impeachment. If it is only the Dems that want it, he’ll just change the rules. 

The “trial” is being conducted in the house. Public awareness and investigations are going on there

I have said that a trial is required under Senate rules.  Your link says the same.  I have also said that if McConnell wanted to change the rules to avoid a trial, he'd need a majority vote to do it, which puts GOP Senators on the record anyway.  Your link says the same. 

Impeachment will require GOP Senators to take a stand one way or another.  I don't see any way they can avoid it. 

[Anastasis 23469]

11 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Oh come on.

Don't pull a fucking Bill Barr on me motherfucker with those brackets and selective quote extraction.

[jimmyjazz 45909]

I'm not sure I've ever seen a purer example of posters talking past each other than this thread today.  Wow.  There's literally no converging on any kind of "truth".

[David Dennison 18856]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I have said that a trial is required under Senate rules.  Your link says the same.  I have also said that if McConnell wanted to change the rules to avoid a trial, he'd need a majority vote to do it, which puts GOP Senators on the record anyway.  Your link says the same. 

Impeachment will require GOP Senators to take a stand one way or another.  I don't see any way they can avoid it. 

They'd much rather vote on a rule change if it means there is no recorded vote on removal.

[Anastasis 23469]

13 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Well seeing as it’s the only measurement we currently have... well that and the massive defeat in the midterms.

It's all in the game right.  An 'insurance policy', if you will...