The Robert Mueller Investigation

[bolverk 28,888]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am not ok with conceding that the ends justify the means when we are talking about the US intelligence apparatus be used in this way.  I know that you have a fundamentally different perspective on the intelligence community.  We know all about how you hate Snowden and Greenwald and anybody who tries to pull the curtain back on their abuses. It's OK. Let's see how things work on on this front.

Are you okay with conceding it's appropriate to follow up on a tip by a drunken campaign advisor who was bragging about how the Kremlin had broken into DNC servers and was going to dish them out as a way to tip the scales in favor of Trump?

[Anastasis 23,191]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

For a guy that loves exposing malfeasance in government you should probably send Christopher Steele a nice fruit basket.  

Oh, and you do realize that if the dossier does indeed include aspects of a russian disinformation campaign, it therefore a part of the Russian campaign to interfere with the election?

From the NYT article I linked earlier:

Another possibility — one that Mr. Steele has not ruled out — could be Russian disinformation. That would mean that in addition to carrying out an effective attack on the Clinton campaign, Russian spymasters hedged their bets and placed a few land mines under Mr. Trump’s presidency as well.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

21 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Not sure that confirmation of certain contents in a document that attempts to incorporate multiple information streams makes it unlikely that other contents are not disinformation. One of the most directly damaging pieces of information in the dossier related to the coordination of the Russian interference campaign by Michael Cohen, structuring and financing of operations and acting as the key go between.  What does your article say about that?  Or about the portions of the Dossier related to Page, the portions that are directly relevant to the FISA process? The most effective disinformation blends itself in among a cloak of supporting documentation.  This exchange is case in point.  We know that the elaborate Cohen scheme is most likely disinformation from one of Steele's Russian sources, and yes here were are questioning that conclusion because it is embedded in a framework of other observations that can be verified, either in full or partial.

Recent article on the IG investigation and focus on Steele dossier:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/steele-dossier-mueller-report.html 

Another possibility — one that Mr. Steele has not ruled out — could be Russian disinformation. That would mean that in addition to carrying out an effective attack on the Clinton campaign, Russian spymasters hedged their bets and placed a few land mines under Mr. Trump’s presidency as well.

Oleg D. Kalugin, a former K.G.B. general who now lives outside Washington, saw that as plausible. “Russia has huge experience in spreading false information,” he said.

...

But that is an issue to which multiple inquiries are likely to return. There has been much chatter among intelligence experts that Mr. Steele’s Russian informants could have been pressured to feed him disinformation.

Daniel Hoffman, a former C.I.A. officer who served in Moscow, said he had long suspected the dossier was contaminated by Russian fabrications. The goal, he said, would be to deepen American divisions and blur the line between truth and falsehood.

I will admit, there’s a probability of some strategic disinformation in the Dossier coming from Russian sources but that comes with the territory in the intelligence business. What you have to factor in is the reliability of Steele as an intelligence officer and his relationship with Russia (they hate him after the FIFA scandal).  The Dossier was never intended for public consumption and parts of it are still redacted to this day.  Steele was documenting the information he was getting from multiple sources, some are probably dead now.  He put the information he was getting in the hands of the FBI.  Steele also met with the Mueller Team two years ago.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/10/05/politics/special-counsel-russia-dossier-christopher-steele/index.html

The Steele Dossier was never sold as a confirmed and verified document.  It was always presented as an unverified compilation of memos from British spy.  

However, it became public because the intelligence community was taking it seriously.  The Mueller report and the indictments of Manafort, Flynn, and Cohen (all named in the Dossier) kinda proves they were right to do so. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Anastasis 23,191]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

However, it became public because the intelligence community was taking it seriously.

It became public because Brennan coordinated its release in cooperation with journalists and coordination of cover with Comey. While at the same time the FBI had determined the unreliability of Steele's sources. 

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What you have to factor in is the reliability of Steele as an intelligence officer and his relationship with Russia (they hate him after the FIFA scandal).

Hmm.  Wonder if they would have any motivation to discredit him as an intelligence operative by feeding him disinformation. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Anastasis

[bolverk 28,888]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Oh, and you do realize that if the dossier does indeed include aspects of a russian disinformation campaign, it therefore a part of the Russian campaign to interfere with the election?

From the NYT article I linked earlier:

Another possibility — one that Mr. Steele has not ruled out — could be Russian disinformation. That would mean that in addition to carrying out an effective attack on the Clinton campaign, Russian spymasters hedged their bets and placed a few land mines under Mr. Trump’s presidency as well.

 

There may have well been. Good thing there was an investigation into looking at that. It still doesn't change the fact that Papadopoulos literally bragged about getting Kremlin help to one of our allies.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

Just now, Anastasis said:

It became public because Brennan coordinated its release in cooperation with journalists and coordination of cover with Comey. While at the same time the FBI had determined the unreliability of Steele's sources. 

That’s not what the Buzzfeed folks that published it said. 

[bad_teammate 13,018]

The piss tape is real and it's beautiful and I will have it played at my funeral.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Hmm.  Wonder if they would have any motivation to discredit him as an intelligence operative by feeding him disinformation. 

I have no idea but it’s just as likely the Russians lie as much as Trump.   Falsehoods buried in facts are second nature to them. 

[maninblack 7,974]

22 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Is this a both sides argument or a Dems are crazy argument?

Any side but in context it's for any doofus who believed this crackpot political conspiracy theory

[Nivek 16,643]

I'm going to give him credit he knew that already, but wants to play a little game of BS.  The wife did a stint with the state of Va. for 6 months and ran screaming from the building 6 months later.  
The culture of doing nothing, and 5 people doing it was everywhere.  It's pretty much the same thing at the federal level.  Certainly not everywhere but in most agencies that's the case.

Maybe your wife just sucks and could not handle the job.

Most places are not like that at the state, city or federal level.

[Anastasis 23,191]

16 minutes ago, bolverk said:

There may have well been. Good thing there was an investigation into looking at that. It still doesn't change the fact that Papadopoulos literally bragged about getting Kremlin help to one of our allies.

Have you ever seen a transcript of that conversation?  I don't recall one. Here is Papadops closed door House testimony transcript.  Do a text search on Downer and read the relevant sections. I will grant in advance that Papadop is a self serving shit stain, but I think there is likely a bit more to that interaction than just a drunk popping off about Kremlin assitance.  

https://www.scribd.com/document/403223175/Papadopoulos-10-25-18-Interview-Transcript-Redacted#from_embed

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Anastasis

[Biff Tannen 44,921]

1 hour ago, maninblack said:

Any side but in context it's for any doofus who believed this crackpot political conspiracy theory

Ok just checking.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

Double post

Edited April 24, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz
Double post

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Have you ever seen a transcript of that conversation?  I don't recall one. Here is Papadops closed door House testimony transcript.  Do a text search on Downer and read the relevant sections. I will grant in advance that Papadop is a self serving shit stain, but I think there is likely a bit more to that interaction than just a drunk popping off about Kremlin assitance.  

https://www.scribd.com/document/403223175/Papadopoulos-10-25-18-Interview-Transcript-Redacted#from_embed

 

What is your grand theory here?

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What is your grand theory here?

I have a grand theory. It's pretty out there, you may find it hard to believe.

Trump is an idiot. Fin

[Anastasis 23,191]

9 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What is your grand theory here?

I think that I have outlined it a couple times on previously pages, but once more for the record:

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

Dammit, I like your theory better.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

 

[Rimbo 25,212]

Jared Kushner Claims That Russian Interference Less Damaging To U.S. Democracy Than Saudi Arabia, Nepotism, Israel, Cambridge Analytica, UAE, Illicit Donations, Erik Prince, Bill Barr, And Financial Entanglements

 

[Rimbo 25,212]

30 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I think that I have outlined it a couple times on previously pages, but once more for the record:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hmmm, does seem to fit all the available evidence.

[jimmyjazz 45,055]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Oh, and you do realize that if the dossier does indeed include aspects of a russian disinformation campaign, it therefore a part of the Russian campaign to interfere with the election?

From the NYT article I linked earlier:

Another possibility — one that Mr. Steele has not ruled out — could be Russian disinformation. That would mean that in addition to carrying out an effective attack on the Clinton campaign, Russian spymasters hedged their bets and placed a few land mines under Mr. Trump’s presidency as well.

 

Holy cow.  You've gone full blown tin foil.  Get a grip.

[bolverk 28,888]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Have you ever seen a transcript of that conversation?  I don't recall one. Here is Papadops closed door House testimony transcript.  Do a text search on Downer and read the relevant sections. I will grant in advance that Papadop is a self serving shit stain, but I think there is likely a bit more to that interaction than just a drunk popping off about Kremlin assitance.  

https://www.scribd.com/document/403223175/Papadopoulos-10-25-18-Interview-Transcript-Redacted#from_embed

 

Do I need a subscription or something? I did a search and it shows 42 47 returns on "Downer" and only reveals sentence fragments in a pop-up, but I can't actually view the text in the document. It's all white with a few black lines where - I assume - the name Downer appears in the document.

Edited April 24, 2019 by bolverk

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

I can’t imagine how pissed Mueller must be at Barr. 

[GRHorn 105]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I can’t imagine how pissed Mueller must be at Barr. 

For what?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

Just asking questions! 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Maybe your wife just sucks and could not handle the job.

Most places are not like that at the state, city or federal level.






 

me yeah she does. Fuck you for the comment 

 

 

The wife's sharp as shit with decades of experience in the insurance field  It was the SCC state corp. Commission, and its indicitive of state agencies in Va.  and is also typical of federal agencies.

 

over staffed,

no deadlines

entrenched routines 

no motivation to innovate 

difficult to fire personnel 

 

she got the hell out  because everything was so stupidly, an ineffiecntly run

Edited April 24, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[notre dame joe 170]

 

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The irony here is the Republican talking points during the 2016 election about Hillary’s hacked emails versus their talking points with the Dossier/Mueller investigation.

October 2016: “It doesn’t matter where the emails came from or who hacked them, it’s what is in the emails that is important.”

April 2019:  “It doesn’t matter how accurate the information is or what crimes are exposed in the Dossier/Mueller investigation, what is important is who funded it and where it originated.”

 

I think the irony is that no one remembers what was in Hilary and DNCs emails.  They couldn't match what we already know.

 

Also ironic, the D faithful blame the hackers and not the authors.  

[David Dennison 17,660]

2 minutes ago, notre dame joe said:

I think the irony is that no one remembers what was in Hilary and DNCs emails.  They couldn't match what we already know.

 

Also ironic, the D faithful blame the hackers and not the authors.  

Was it worse than sexual assault?

 

[notre dame joe 170]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Was it worse than sexual assault?

 

coulda been

[David Dennison 17,660]

Just now, notre dame joe said:

coulda been

Worse than excusing foreign interference in a presidential election?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

Other than the debate question in advance, what was the most incriminating Hillary email? 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Other than the debate question in advance, what was the most incriminating Hillary email? 

The ones with the above top secret classified information?

[David Dennison 17,660]

1 minute ago, Thetexashammer said:

The ones with the above top secret classified information?

And that was?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,245]

Things not seen in the redacted Mueller report are telling: 

Primary issues not visible:

The money angle, the counterintelligence angle, and the NRA/Dearborn/Paul Erickson/Butina/Don Jr/Torshin angle.

These are probably all related and redacted due to “Harm to ongoing matter” reasons. 

 

Secondary issues not visible:

Cambridge Analytica, Firtash, Rebeka Mercer coordinating/communicating with Wikileaks. 

The mysterious Trump Tower to Alfa Bank server connection.

I have no idea why these are absent from the report, maybe there was nothing there. 

 

[hobbes2702 12,481]

38 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And that was?

They don’t know 

[JimmyJames 12,267]

I’ve noticed a lot of our trolls here work in the insurance industry. Interesting.

[Gatorubet 29,398]

3 hours ago, maninblack said:

Any side but in context it's for any doofus who believed this crackpot political conspiracy theory

Why was Manafort giving polling data to the Russians?

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

51 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

They don’t know 

Are you talking to me? Are you talking about the emails?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hillary-clinton-emails-contained-info-above-top-secret-ig-n499886

Quote

Emails from Hillary Clinton’s home server contained information classified at levels higher than previously known, including a level meant to protect some of the most sensitive U.S. intelligence, according to a document obtained by NBC News.

In a letter to lawmakers, the intelligence community’s internal watchdog says some of Clinton’s emails contained information classified Top Secret/Special Access Program, a secrecy designation that includes some of the most closely held U.S. intelligence matters.

Two American intelligence officials tell NBC News these are not the same two emails from Clinton’s server that have long been reported as containing information deemed Top Secret.

 

[JimmyJames 12,267]

25 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Why was Manafort giving polling data to the Russians?

He probably won’t answer, but if he or someone else does, it’ll be something along the lines of well he owed them money and was just trying to get on their good side.

Yeah because whenever I go to the bank about a loan the first thing they ask for is my polling data. 

[JimmyJames 12,267]

Or according to the ruskie spy, Manafort was just sending him data that was already public. 

Which begs the question, if it was already public, why did you need the trump campaign manager to send it to you in the first place? Along with encrypted messages?

Russians are lying as usual. It’s like a whole country full of trumps. 

[Degenerate Gardner 4,057]

31 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Why was Manafort giving polling data to the Russians?

Strange custom to be sure, but in that part of the world folks exchange polling data as a sign of friendship.  Manafort was just honoring another culture. He's an ambassador of goodwill really.

[Anastasis 23,191]

46 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Why was Manafort giving polling data to the Russians?

Mueller's assessment is on pg 130 of the report:

The Office could not reliably determine Manafort’s purpose in sharing internal polling data with Kilimnik during the campaign period. Manafort ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ did not see a downside to sharing campaign information, and told Gates that his role in the Campaign would be “good for business” and potentially a way to be made whole for work he previously completed in the Ukraine. As to Deripaska, Manafort claimed that by sharing campaign information with him, Deripaska might see value in their relationship and resolve a “disagreement”—a reference to one or more outstanding lawsuits. Because of questions about Manafort’s credibility and our limited ability to gather evidence on what happened to the polling data after it was sent to Kilimnik, the Office could not assess what Kilimnik (or others he may have given it to) did with it. The Office did not identify evidence of a connection between Manafort’s sharing polling data and Russia’s interference in the election, which had already been reported by U.S. media outlets at the time of the August 2 meeting. The investigation did not establish that Manafort otherwise coordinated with the Russian government on its election-interference efforts.

 

Which is fairly similar to my sanctimonious contrarian take on pg. 276 of this thread:

 

As self appointed sanctimonious contrarian, let me take a crack.

Manafort was trying to prove up how deeply integrated he was with the campaign by passing a mix of public and contracted poll data.  This is occurring at the same that he was putting out offers to give private briefings on the race to Deripaska. He had history with these guys and owed Deripaska something like 10+ million dollars in bad debt and was trying to keep them at bay. Up to this point, this is basically a paraphrase of one explanation offered in the NYT piece BTW. In addition, I would add that the intent could be to flaunt his position on the Trump campaign, teasing his influence in a potential Trump presidency, with the qui pro quo ultimately being a release from his past political and financial debts in exchange for effective insider lobbying regarding sanction relief impacting the very oligarchs he was communicating with.  That seems to be something that these guys might find 10MM in value over. 

It's a stretch, but there you go. Man in bad place, big debt, wrong people, trying to dig himself out via influence peddling. That's the most friendly read.  The other is that he was knowingly feeding their influence machine targeting data. In which case he should hang. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23,191]

BTW @Hugo Stiglitz did you realize that you broke the search function on this thread when you edited the title when the report was dropped? It does not appear to return search results when limited to this thread for post prior to March 26. 

[Anastasis 23,191]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Do I need a subscription or something? I did a search and it shows 42 47 returns on "Downer" and only reveals sentence fragments in a pop-up, but I can't actually view the text in the document. It's all white with a few black lines where - I assume - the name Downer appears in the document.

Don't think so.  It works for me in chrome. 

[Anastasis 23,191]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Holy cow.  You've gone full blown tin foil.  Get a grip.

Not totally sure if you are referring to my text, or the excerpt from the NYT piece, but either way I will take "tin foil".  By my measure that is an upgrade from "treasonous traitor to the republic". 

[GRHorn 105]

32 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

He probably won’t answer, but if he or someone else does, it’ll be something along the lines of well he owed them money and was just trying to get on their good side.

Yeah because whenever I go to the bank about a loan the first thing they ask for is my polling data. 

 

29 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Or according to the ruskie spy, Manafort was just sending him data that was already public. 

Which begs the question, if it was already public, why did you need the trump campaign manager to send it to you in the first place? Along with encrypted messages?

Russians are lying as usual. It’s like a whole country full of trumps. 

Hey you’re right. That’s just what Mueller said  

 

 

[TDunk 590]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

 

Hey you’re right. That’s just what Mueller said  

 

 

Read the sentence before the highlighted portion.   

[David Dennison 17,660]

3 minutes ago, TDunk said:

Read the sentence before the highlighted portion.   

The selective reading is impressive.

[notre dame joe 170]

4 hours ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Strange custom to be sure, but in that part of the world folks exchange polling data as a sign of friendship.  Manafort was just honoring another culture. He's an ambassador of goodwill really.

and thus the Russians tricked Manafort into revealing that 100% of Republicans don't give a shit.

[Anastasis 23,191]

11 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Things not seen in the redacted Mueller report are telling: 

Primary issues not visible:

The money angle, the counterintelligence angle, and the NRA/Dearborn/Paul Erickson/Butina/Don Jr/Torshin angle.

These are probably all related and redacted due to “Harm to ongoing matter” reasons. 

 

Secondary issues not visible:

Cambridge Analytica, Firtash, Rebeka Mercer coordinating/communicating with Wikileaks. 

The mysterious Trump Tower to Alfa Bank server connection.

I have no idea why these are absent from the report, maybe there was nothing there. 

 

Primary issue also not visible:

James Comey's handing of the Clinton press conference likely had the single greatest external influence on the election results (538 Link). Another issue that wasn't visible in the report was the Russian disinformation operation targeting the FBI that influenced Comey's decision to hold that press conference (WaPo Link). Wonder why the former Director of the FBI would leave something as potentially impactful to the election, driven right through the halls of the FBI, out of the report on Russian election interference? 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Anastasis