The Robert Mueller Investigation

[David Dennison 18,856]

The House just reauthorized the Patriot Act. There will not be any serious consequences or reforms. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The House just reauthorized the Patriot Act. There will not be any serious consequences or reforms. 

Say a prayer for the average Joe Schmos caught up in FISA. I hope the election of 2020 makes it more of a priority to revamp the process to ensure equal protection and due process. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

That said, within current statute, the report is clear -- no political bias motivated the surveillance and the findings speak for themselves.

 

No disagreement there. But that was not the issue raised by the NYT piece.

[Captainant 27,661]

7 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Say a prayer for the average Joe Schmos caught up in FISA. I hope the election of 2020 makes it more of a priority to revamp the process to ensure equal protection and due process. 

You're nearly two decades late to being worried about that my dude. It's funny though how all the trump supporters only started caring about this as an issue once it affected their god-emperor.

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

6 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

No disagreement there. But that was not the issue raised by the NYT piece.

One should probably question the point of the NYT piece as well. 

Point of order:  I am a NYT subscriber.  (Digital only, no crossword or food, in case anyone doubts my motives.)

Edited December 11, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[wildcat09 29,354]

7 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Say a prayer for the average Joe Schmos caught up in FISA. I hope the election of 2020 makes it more of a priority to revamp the process to ensure equal protection and due process. 

The only FISA "reform" any Republicans will ever approve of is to leave current rules in place and just replace everyone in federal law enforcement with personnel who will only investigate brown people.

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

The only FISA "reform" any Republicans will ever approve of is to leave current rules in place and just replace everyone in federal law enforcement with personnel who will only investigate brown people.

You are not wrong. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You're nearly two decades late to being worried about that my dude. It's funny though how all the trump supporters only started caring about this as an issue once it affected their god-emperor.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The only FISA "reform" any Republicans will ever approve of is to leave current rules in place and just replace everyone in federal law enforcement with personnel who will only investigate brown people.

And 2020 can change that equation.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

One should probably question the point of the NYT piece as well. 

Point of order:  I am a NYT subscriber.  (Digital only, no crossword or food, in case anyone doubts my motives.)

I think the point was we have long had concerns about the secrecy of the FISA process and how much it depended on honesty to the FISA court. Regardless of Page, the findings raise doubts whether others (e.g., Muslims) caught up in FISA have been treated fairly. That is a big issue that goes to the foundation of this nation. When the Patriot Act passed, there were warnings this would happen and denials that it ever could happen. Well it did. So time to start over. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by washparkhorn

[Biff Tannen 45,682]

8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

That is a big issue that goes to the foundation of this nation.

There's something else that this would apply to also.  Something really prescient.  I can't quite put my finger on it though.

[wildcat09 29,354]

17 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

One should probably question the point of the NYT piece as well. 

Point of order:  I am a NYT subscriber.  (Digital only, no crossword or food, in case anyone doubts my motives.)

The crossword is the only thing they publish worth subscribing to. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

There's something else that this would apply to also.  Something really prescient.  I can't quite put my finger on it though.

Focus, please. Not all issues are partisan or about the current occupant of the White House. 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by washparkhorn

[Biff Tannen 45,682]

Yes, you're right.  This is the most important issue that we should all be worried about, especially NOW.  Not the years past that it has also been a problem, but especially RIGHT NOW.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

Thank you for understanding. The Patriot Act has run havoc on civil liberties for almost 20 years now. It is time - with an election coming up - to focus on repeal and reform. 

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Focus, please. Not all issues are partisan or about the current occupant of the White House.

On a thread regarding the DOJ investigation of the President's campaign?

Edited December 11, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[washparkhorn 9,939]

Yes - it shows the length some will go to abuse civil liberties. Not a partisan issue. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

If they can do it to this President, they can do it to anyone - including the next Democratic President. 

[wildcat09 29,354]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

If they can do it to this President, they can do it to anyone - including the next Democratic President. 

Lol, like reforming FISA would stop Trump or Bill Barr from doing anything at all.

[David Dennison 18,856]

6 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

If they can do it to this President, they can do it to anyone - including the next Democratic President. 

What? Conduct a legitimate investigation of campaign staff?

The horror.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What? Conduct a legitimate investigation of campaign staff?

The horror.

Using the FISA court incorrectly. Them are the goal posts. 

[Brisketexan 105,123]

9 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

If they can do it to this President, they can do it to anyone - including the next Democratic President. 

Gosh....if only there was some Constitutional process whereby we could address violations of the law committed to attack the campaign of the potential next Democratic President....man, wouldn't that be cool?  Because if there was, we'll all be saved!  America is safe, and all is right!

Wait...what's that?  We do have that mechanism?  And the criminal organization that is the Trump administration and its lackeys in the GOP have simply refused to let it work, and he can never be removed from office?  Oh.  Bummer.

So, about your masturbatory dreams about fixing the rule of law.....we might oughta work on RE-ESTABLISHING the rule of law first, then we can fine-tune it.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Lol, like reforming FISA would stop Trump or Bill Barr from doing anything at all.

Would stop them from launching an investigation into any number of political candidates. The election will be the final say. 

[Brisketexan 105,123]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Would stop them from launching an investigation into any number of political candidates. 

There is literally a DOA impeachment proceeding going on right now about [checks notes] THIS EXACT FUCKING ISSUE.

Stop it.  Just stop.  You have to be doing a bit.

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

10 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Would stop them from launching an investigation into any number of political candidates. The election will be the final say. 

That's fucking idiotic.  I mean, flat fucking idiotic.

Mr. "Rule of Law" is advocating that we ignore the laws and let the people decide.

Ever hear the phrase "Tyranny of the Majority"?  Look into it.

[Anastasis 23,469]

So I only caught a few pieces here and there of the Horowitz testimony but in those limited exchanges the contrast, in terms of command of the content and articulation, between Horowitz and mueller testimony was pronounced. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Anastasis

[RomaVicta 29,907]

On 12/10/2019 at 2:14 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

From the Daily Beast:

Quote

For the nearly two years since her name first made the papers, she’s been publicly silent (she did have a closed-door interview with House members in July 2018). I asked her why she was willing to talk now. “Honestly, his demeaning fake orgasm was really the straw that broke the camel’s back,” she says. The president called out her name as he acted out an orgasm in front of thousands of people at a Minneapolis rally on Oct. 11.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Mr. "Rule of Law" is advocating that we ignore the laws and let the people decide.

We wouldn't want the people to decide if there needs to be FISA reform. FFS, lean in and work in all areas to improve this nation. Especially when your solution is guaranteed to fail. Make the argument, but broaden the lines of attack. If it helps shape the electorate, more power to you. But we don't them to be lulled into thinking a conviction will occur. It's won't. Best to have multiple fronts, no?

And, btw, the Senate, the Judiciary, and the Electoral College are some of the bulwarks put in place to guard against the "Tyranny of the Majority." 

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

We wouldn't want the people to decide if there needs to be FISA reform. FFS, lean in and work in all areas to improve this nation. Especially when your solution is guaranteed to fail.

What is my solution and how is it guaranteed to fail?

[washparkhorn 9,939]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There is literally a DOA impeachment proceeding going on right now about [checks notes] THIS EXACT FUCKING ISSUE.

Stop it.  Just stop.  You have to be doing a bit.

Not following. The impeachment is not about the FBI/Justice Department investigation through a FISA Court, is it?  

[washparkhorn 9,939]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

What is my solution and how is it guaranteed to fail?

Impeachment conviction? No?

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

Impeachment conviction? No?

Hell no, he's not going to be convicted.  My only hope is that it will put enough Republicans on record and they might have to pay a price if the evidence is damning enough.  I'm not hopeful.

I think the actual end game will be far uglier.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

My bad JJ. Poor assumption. I am a little more hopeful about the electorate and the outcome of the election. I hope it is a broad mandate to right some of the wrongs. 

Again, my apologies.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

I didn't have time to watch all of the coverage today, but Hawley was out there doing his schtick.

 

[Brisketexan 105,123]

3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

And, btw, the Senate, the Judiciary, and the Electoral College are some of the bulwarks put in place to guard against the "Tyranny of the Majority." 

What nobody seems to be asking is this -- is a "Tyranny of the Minority" any better?  Fucking seriously.  I don't give a fuck if the people who want to scrap the rule of law and opt for a fascist Godocracy are 60% of the people or 40% of the people -- if they're in control, that's what fucking matters.  The rule of law exists only as long as those in power decide it does, and they are completing the process of deciding it doesn't.  At all.  Not to your fucking FISA warrants, the 4th amendment, or anyfuckingthing else.

We're in the cockpit, plummeting towards the ground, and every warning light is flashing....no shit, Sherlock, we've got a LOT of things going wrong on this bird.  How about we prioritize addressing the issues that will avert the impending impact, and then after we've avoided that, we figure out the rest of the warning lights?  I agree with you, the pressure loss around the passenger windows is a real-deal problem.  Once we pull out of this nose-dive, we should definitely work on that.  But fucking around with the goddamned windows while we auger in is fucking suicidal stupidity.  The first step when in an out of control plane -- AVIATE.  ADDRESS THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT. 

We are currently controlled by a treasonous, criminal organization that is happily working with any foreign power it can, including hostile foreign powers, to insure that their grip on power will be permanent and unbreakable.  The 4th amendment will just be so many fucking words if we don't solve THAT problem first.

[Brisketexan 105,123]

7 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Not following. The impeachment is not about the FBI/Justice Department investigation through a FISA Court, is it?  

It  is -- fucking LITERALLY -- about an administration that is 100% hostile to the rule of law breaking the law to investigate/harm an opposing candidate.  No, they didn't use a FISA court -- THEY USE THE FUCKING POWER OF THE WHOLE UNITED STATES TO COERCE A FOREIGN COUNTRY TO DO IT.  So, like the thing you're worried about -- except so fucking out of bounds, it defies most people's power of imagination.  And guess what the consequences will be for that illegal effort to investigate/harm an opposing candidate?

FUCKING NOTHING.  

The EXACT thing you're worried about.....except it's tied up with an existential threat.  You're worried about the fucking windows when this fucker is screaming at us:

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

18 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

My bad JJ. Poor assumption. I am a little more hopeful about the electorate and the outcome of the election. I hope it is a broad mandate to right some of the wrongs. 

Again, my apologies.

No worries, I'm a overly sensitive prick these days, even moreso than usual.

[Anastasis 23,469]

So has anybody changed their prior stated opinions on this thread regarding the veracity of the Steele dossier or the probable cause basis for the FISA application based on the OIG report?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Anastasis

[ndawg 1,242]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It  is -- fucking LITERALLY -- about an administration that is 100% hostile to the rule of law breaking the law to investigate/harm an opposing candidate.  No, they didn't use a FISA court -- THEY USE THE FUCKING POWER OF THE WHOLE UNITED STATES TO COERCE A FOREIGN COUNTRY TO DO IT.  So, like the thing you're worried about -- except so fucking out of bounds, it defies most people's power of imagination.  And guess what the consequences will be for that illegal effort to investigate/harm an opposing candidate?

FUCKING NOTHING.  

The EXACT thing you're worried about.....except it's tied up with an existential threat.  You're worried about the fucking windows when this fucker is screaming at us:

This. President Fake News abused his office by extorting another country into manufacturing a fake news story about his political opponent.

It's that simple. That's where America is at right now.

[GRHorn 105]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So has anybody changed their prior stated opinions on this thread regarding the veracity of the Steele dossier or the probable cause basis for the FISA application based on the OIG report?

Lol no

[Anastasis 23,469]

2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Lol no

I haven’t seen any self identity since the report dropped so figured I’d inquire. 

[GRHorn 105]

Goes in the media bias thread maybe, but this looks awesome in hindsight. Media awarding itself for breathlessly reporting garbage. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by GRHorn

[jimmyjazz 45,920]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So has anybody changed their prior stated opinions on this thread regarding the veracity of the Steele dossier or the probable cause basis for the FISA application based on the OIG report?

No.  The Steele report was never submitted as a vetted document, and it was never sold as standalone evidence of the need for surveillance of page.  Horowitz doesn't contradict this.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

Brisket - I don't discount the importance of what you see. Not in the least.

We have systematically sold this nation off to the highest bidder. We treat citizens and non-citizens as guilty first. The hollowing out of the middle and working classes goes on at breakneck speed, while the consultant class continues to earn their keep by eliminating work in the name of efficiency. This process began a long time ago, as you know. And with 9/11 and the resulting Patriot Act, we weaponized the intelligence agencies against citizens and non-citizens. We are now at a point where one of the curtains has dropped and we see full well the power we gave away to the Congress and the President with the Patriot Act. That was no small piece of power given away. And by limiting what courts can see in response to these emergencies, we have neutered the Judiciary - a bulwark against both tyranny of the majority and minority rule. 

In less than a year, the current occupant of the White House will face an electorate that should be fully aware of his actions. And since corruption is the underlying allegation against his rule, those asking for the same power he has must have clean hands. We don't need another meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Civil Libertarians on all sides have rightfully criticized the President for his abuses. If the process of investigating him turned out abuse by those entrusted with to uphold the rule of law, they need to be called out and actions are needed to prevent them repeating those actions. That does not immunize the President from his wrongdoing; it strengthens the case against him when all sides call out illegal behavior regardless of party affiliation. It is an equitable solution we seek, so clean hands are required to prosecute that case. 

As for the rest of the rot, Congress has given most of their power to the Executive Branch. The Chevron doctrine needs to go, or Congress needs to reassume its authority over law making. And when the Executive steps out of line - as it did with its FISA court filings - swift punishment must follow.

Finally, for those selling out governmental power to the highest bidder, this must stop. Business as usual does not work anymore. They will need to earn their money the old fashioned way - follow the law and build something. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So has anybody changed their prior stated opinions on this thread regarding the veracity of the Steele dossier or the probable cause basis for the FISA application based on the OIG report?

As for probable cause, no. As I’ve been telling you for many months, they easily met the definition of the standard for probable cause. Just as I told you, just as the report found, just as reality would mandate, and just as you continue to refuse to acknowledge that incontrovertible fact, thus showing your trump republican liar no facts matter stripes.

Carry on with your truly important grail. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

As for probable cause, no. As I’ve been telling you for many months, they easily met the definition of the standard for probable cause. Just as I told you, just as the report found, just as reality would mandate, and just as you continue to refuse to acknowledge that incontrovertible fact, thus showing your trump republican liar no facts matter stripes.

Carry on with your truly important grail. 

Just want to make sure I read you right. Your continued contention is that absent the Steele material the FISA application easily met the probable cause standard. Is that right?

[JimmyJames 12,271]

4 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Goes in the media bias thread maybe, but this looks awesome in hindsight. Media awarding itself for breathlessly reporting garbage. 

Identify the  “garbage” you livin the best life on the board troll and explain why.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Just want to make sure I read you right. Your continued contention is that absent the Steele material the FISA application easily met the probable cause standard. Is that right?

You obviously don’t understand the standard of probable cause to obtain a warrant so why bother? I don’t argue with brick walls.  You are completely ignorant and wrong on this subject and so my posts are designed to inform the other readers of that fact. You are not my audience here. Merely the muse. Answer the questions I ask you or not. You never, ever, do and so I don’t care.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

FISA ABUSE!!!!!  

[Brisketexan 105,123]

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

We are now at a point where one of the curtains has dropped and we see full well the power we gave away to the Congress and the President with the Patriot Act.

The problem here is that you're fighting yesterday's war.  You're arguing about what legal powers our government should or shouldn't have.

Today's war is over this: IT DOESN'T MATTER.  Because they don't care.  They're going to use illegal powers that they don't have, and waddaya gonna do about it?

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

In less than a year, the current occupant of the White House will face an electorate that should be fully aware of his actions.

Bolded for falsity.  See Fox News.  See relentless foreign-funded propaganda that floods social media.  Counting on social awareness is a fatal mistake.

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Civil Libertarians on all sides have rightfully criticized the President for his abuses.

Yes.  To ZERO avail.  It doesn't matter anymore.  He is above the law.  Completely, and totally.

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

If the process of investigating him turned out abuse by those entrusted with to uphold the rule of law, they need to be called out and actions are needed to prevent them repeating those actions. That does not immunize the President from his wrongdoing; it strengthens the case against him when all sides call out illegal behavior regardless of party affiliation. It is an equitable solution we seek, so clean hands are required to prosecute that case. 

Oh sweet lord, you're adorable.  You live in a world where you think that ethics, fairness, and equitable conduct matter.  Wake up.  You're in a post-rules society.  You just look silly.

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

As for the rest of the rot, Congress has given most of their power to the Executive Branch. The Chevron doctrine needs to go, or Congress needs to reassume its authority over law making. And when the Executive steps out of line - as it did with its FISA court filings - swift punishment must follow.

In a related story, Brisket has to head out to make his weekly threesome with Gal Gadot and Carla Gugino (Sela Ward is on the waiting list).  I mean, while we're typing up utter fantasies, I'd like to get mine on the record.

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Business as usual does not work anymore.

On this, we agree.  We just wildly disagree on the direction that takes us.  You should be LONGING for "business as usual," because a Kakistocracy of Grift and Fascism is definitely not "business as usual" -- it's much, much worse.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Brisketexan