The Robert Mueller Investigation

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

I mean the Trump people were vocally afraid of Weissman.  Not sure if it was warranted but they didn’t want him near the investigation. 

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yeah he certainly comes across as self-serving, but I don't doubt that the investigation was too chickenshit to do its job.

I'm pretty sure he and Mueller are fairly polar opposites.  He's a rabid dog and Mueller is a gentleman.

Rather than being fundamentally "afraid," I think Mueller was three things a) acutely conscious of the overreach of the Starr investigation (with Rosenstein chirping in his ear to boot);  b) wary of provoking a constitutional crisis (either via subpoena or another "midnight massacre," and again Rosenstein chirping in his ear); and c) naive about Trumpco's willingness to break norms.

The net result is the investigation was too timid.  The ideal probably would have been somewhere between the two.  Weissman would have probably provoked two constitutional crises by subpoena'ing and getting himself fired.  God knows where that would have ended up.  Well, in actuality, given subsequent events, the subpoena probably would have been sustained, and the firing a ground for impeachment but otherwise legally not actionable.  Even so, we'd be in "God knows" territory because the investigation probably wouldn't have concluded as a result of the firing, thus no report, and the subpoena, although sustained, would never have been fulfilled.

Edited September 22, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

Id take a rabid dog at some point in AG office in about, say, 4 months. 

[wildcat09 29,243]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm pretty sure he and Mueller are fairly polar opposites.  He's a rabid dog and Mueller is a gentleman.

Rather than being fundamentally "afraid," I think Mueller was three things a) acutely conscious of the overreach of the Starr investigation (with Rosenstein chirping in his ear to boot);  b) wary of provoking a constitutional crisis (either via subpoena or another "midnight massacre," and again Rosenstein chirping in his ear); and c) naive about Trumpco's willingness to break norms.

The net result is the investigation was too timid.  The ideal probably would have been somewhere between the two.  Weissman would have probably provoked two constitutional crises by subpoena'ing and getting himself fired.  God knows where that would have ended up.  Well, in actuality, given subsequent events, the subpoena probably would have been sustained, and the firing a ground for impeachment but otherwise legally not actionable.

I think that would’ve been a preferable scenario. It wouldn’t have given Barr the opportunity to write his bullshit letter and convince half the country that Trump had actually been exonerated.

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I think that would’ve been a preferable scenario. It wouldn’t have given Barr the opportunity to write his bullshit letter and convince half the country that Trump had actually been exonerated.

See my edits.  I think where it would have ended up with a Weissman is no concluded investigation and no report because of the firing.

But also a pretty fucking solid ground of impeachment.

[wildcat09 29,243]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

See my edits.  I think where it would have ended up with a Weissman is no concluded investigation and no report because of the firing.

But also a pretty fucking solid ground of impeachment.

Yeah. I assume that would be the scenario. While I don't think the report has no value, I don't think it has that much so I think that scenario would've been better. The only people who actually read the report were those of us who actually cared and we already knew a lot of the details and already opposed the administration. Many of the details had been reported already and the value of the report was in combining them into a coherent story, but the vast majority of Americans didn't read it.  Barr was able to lie to a majority of the American people, a bunch of dumb reporters repeated and magnified his lie because they didn't know better, and the Democrats were too inept and scared to push back on the lies once the report came out.

If Trump had fired the special prosecutor and shut down the office it would've looked a lot worse to those moderates/centrists who thought the investigation was warranted but weren't sure whether there was anything there. Those people now believe there wasn't anything there, even though we've got a subsequent Senate report (from Republicans!) clearly stating that the Trump campaign was giving internal polling data to a Russian intelligence agent. Barr did his job well. Enraging Trump and forcing his hand would've prevented that.

Edited September 22, 2020 by wildcat09

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yeah. I assume that would be the scenario. While I don't think the report has no value, I don't think it has that much so I think that scenario would've been better. The only people who actually read the report were those of us who actually cared and we already knew a lot of the details and already opposed the administration. Many of the details had been reported already and the value of the report was in combining them into a coherent story, but the vast majority of Americans didn't read it.  Barr was able to lie to a majority of the American people, a bunch of dumb reports repeated and magnified his lie because they didn't know better, and the Democrats were too inept and scared to push back on the lies once the report came out.

If Trump had fired the special prosecutor and shut down the office it would've looked a lot worse to those moderates/centrists who thought the investigation was warranted but weren't sure whether there was anything there. Those people now believe there wasn't anything there, even though we've got a subsequent Senate report (from Republicans!) clearly stating that the Trump campaign was giving internal polling data to a Russian intelligence agent. Barr did his job well. Enraging Trump and forcing his hand would've prevented that.

Can't disagree with that.

The fascinating question would have been, could Trump's handlers have cajoled him into not firing the special prosecutor had he been subpoena'ed?

It took about a year to get the Vance subpoena issue mostly sorted out, which probably would have put the report out about now?

[Anastasis 23,395]

Anything new this week guys on the Mueller investigation and the Steele dossier?  Anything perhaps on the Russian disinformation angle front? Nothing?

[washparkhorn 9,935]

On 9/14/2020 at 6:19 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Anyone figure why Greenwald is such a bitch now? 

[Sawbonz 27,428]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:36 AM, TwiceHorn said:

I'm pretty sure he and Mueller are fairly polar opposites.  He's a rabid dog and Mueller is a gentleman.

Rather than being fundamentally "afraid," I think Mueller was three things a) acutely conscious of the overreach of the Starr investigation (with Rosenstein chirping in his ear to boot);  b) wary of provoking a constitutional crisis (either via subpoena or another "midnight massacre," and again Rosenstein chirping in his ear); and c) naive about Trumpco's willingness to break norms.

The net result is the investigation was too timid.  The ideal probably would have been somewhere between the two.  Weissman would have probably provoked two constitutional crises by subpoena'ing and getting himself fired.  God knows where that would have ended up.  Well, in actuality, given subsequent events, the subpoena probably would have been sustained, and the firing a ground for impeachment but otherwise legally not actionable.  Even so, we'd be in "God knows" territory because the investigation probably wouldn't have concluded as a result of the firing, thus no report, and the subpoena, although sustained, would never have been fulfilled.

Shit like this is why the House controls the money. I wish they had been brave enough to shut everything down until they got the accomplices in front of them under oath

[Poolflood 845]

35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Anything new this week guys on the Mueller investigation and the Steele dossier?  Anything perhaps on the Russian disinformation angle front? Nothing?

Baturina, hunter, 3.5mm?  Nah.  Not worth it. 

That was almost reported.  

Danchenko?

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Poolflood
Holding my breath and, well drunk.

[Anastasis 23,395]

28 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

The receipts are all in this thread. Not shocked some of the most belligerent posters ghosted and ghosting. @suddenly shaggy 

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Anything new this week guys on the Mueller investigation and the Steele dossier?  Anything perhaps on the Russian disinformation angle front? Nothing?

I anticipate further crickets. 
 

The level of investigative/prosecutorial malfeasance vs what was actually uncovered seems slanted pretty hard against the entire investigation.  I’m sure all the classical liberals and true conservatives that I’m told post here will be ok with it though.

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I anticipate further crickets. 
 

The level of investigative/prosecutorial malfeasance vs what was actually uncovered seems slanted pretty hard against the entire investigation.  I’m sure all the classical liberals and true conservatives that I’m told post here will be ok with it though.

No, the malfeasance doesn't extend into the Mueller investigation.

It taints the hell out of the Carter Page surveillance.  But neither the Page surveillance nor the Dossier were the sole sources of information indicating a need for an investigation of Russian interference.

But the Mueller investigation, even with its milquetoast conclusions, uncovered actual election-related psy ops conducted by actual Russians with more than a degree of consent and collaboration from Trump familiars.  

It also exposed, if nothing else, a complete and unprecedented lack of cooperation with the investigation by the Trump administration, even if that lack of cooperation falls short of obstruction of justice. 

Putting the bullshit witch hunt rhetoric aside, what did the Trump administration have to hide?  Donald J. Trump is insufficiently principled to rely on "the principle of the thing."

[Anastasis 23,395]

25 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

No, the malfeasance doesn't extend into the Mueller investigation.

Twice, have you really tracked some of the shit released this week? It doesn't have anything to do with the surveillance.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Anastasis

[Mdhorn 5,911]

37 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

No, the malfeasance doesn't extend into the Mueller investigation.

It taints the hell out of the Carter Page surveillance.  But neither the Page surveillance nor the Dossier were the sole sources of information indicating a need for an investigation of Russian interference.

But the Mueller investigation, even with its milquetoast conclusions, uncovered actual election-related psy ops conducted by actual Russians with more than a degree of consent and collaboration from Trump familiars.  

It also exposed, if nothing else, a complete and unprecedented lack of cooperation with the investigation by the Trump administration, even if that lack of cooperation falls short of obstruction of justice. 

Putting the bullshit witch hunt rhetoric aside, what did the Trump administration have to hide?  Donald J. Trump is insufficiently principled to rely on "the principle of the thing."

It didn't fall short of obstruction, Trump openly told those subpoenaed not to comply.  That's obstruction.  

[wildcat09 29,243]

11 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

It didn't fall short of obstruction, Trump openly told those subpoenaed not to comply.  That's obstruction.  

There were seven or eight pretty open and shut obstruction cases.

[Enchubben 5,509]

14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Anything new this week guys on the Mueller investigation and the Steele dossier?  Anything perhaps on the Russian disinformation angle front? Nothing?

Nope nothing at all. We’ve moved on to harassing a Supreme Court justice for adopting children. 

Its absurd how once the facts come out that appear to confirm what many Republicans were arguing for years that it’s no longer media worthy.

[David Dennison 18,656]

1 hour ago, Enchubben said:

Nope nothing at all. We’ve moved on to harassing a Supreme Court justice for adopting children. 

Its absurd how once the facts come out that appear to confirm what many Republicans were arguing for years that it’s no longer media worthy.

It's absurd that Republicans continue to support an obviously corrupt and compromised individual as president.

[Enchubben 5,509]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's absurd that Republicans continue to support an obviously corrupt and compromised individual as president.

Very few republicans support President Obama.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

8 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

Very few republicans support President Obama.

That response is so lame your sock workswithseeds thought it was hilarious. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

9 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

Very few republicans support President Obama.

Your forgot to say the black guy 

[workswithseed 2,036]

9 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

That response is so lame your sock workswithseeds thought it was hilarious. 

Sock? That's a new one. 

[wildcat09 29,243]

1 hour ago, Enchubben said:

Nope nothing at all. We’ve moved on to harassing a Supreme Court justice for adopting children. 

Its absurd how once the facts come out that appear to confirm what many Republicans were arguing for years that it’s no longer media worthy.

No we haven’t. This is a lie and you are a liar.

“We” were mostly all drinking and watching sports last night, which is why the trolling from @Anastasis didn’t generate responses. For fuck’s sake man, you can’t even take a Friday night off?

[Enchubben 5,509]

38 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Your forgot to say the black guy 

I don’t identify or judge people based on their skin color. Do you do that often?

[JimmyJames 12,271]

42 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

I don’t identify or judge people based on their skin color. Do you do that often?

You keep telling yourself that bud. I’ve read enough of your posts to figure out what you’re all about.

Luckily for you the trump party is openly about white supremacy, good genes and racehorse theory now so there really is no need for you to keep up this charade anymore. 

[notre dame joe 172]

So now you were born with the illegal spying gene?

[Enchubben 5,509]

23 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

You keep telling yourself that bud. I’ve read enough of your posts to figure out what you’re all about.

Ditto. 

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

One thing worth pointing out here.

There is no "probable cause" requirement for the appointment of a special counsel.  The decision to do it lies in the sound discretion of the Attorney General, or in the case of recusal, the Acting Attorney General.

And, while appointment of a Special Counsel insures that the topic of appointment will be investigated, it also divests ongoing rank and file investigations and prosecutions of jurisdiction.

So even if you subscribe to some notion that the Mueller appointment resulted in some kind of ill-founded "witch hunt," you must also concede that the appointment terminated the "covert" Crossfire Hurricane investigation and placed it squarely in the public eye and with accountability that Crossfire Hurricane never would have had.

So, in a sense, if you oppose the Mueller investigation, you advocate for a less accountable version in Crossfire Hurricane, whether you intend to or not.

[GW Hayduke 1,952]

15 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Twice, have you really tracked some of the shit released this week? It doesn't have anything to do with the surveillance.

Oh shit!! What did we miss?  I get that Fox News and Lady G are telling you some mind-blowing things, but did they find evidence that any of the below wasn't true?

• That Russia interfered in the 2016 election in "sweeping and systematic fashion" to get Trump elected by running an email hacking/dumping operation and a social media campaign.
• That Trump asked for Russia's help.
• That Trump's campaign manager provided internal polling data to russian operatives.
• That Trump's campaign manager and son met with russian operatives with the stated goal of getting dirt of Hillary.  Then Trump tried to cover up the meeting.
• That Trump's advisor was in constant contact with wikileaks and coordinating the public release of hacked emails.
• That Trump fired the director of the FBI because of the "Russia Thing."
• That Trump tried to end the Mueller investigation and then directed McGahn to hide that order.
• That Trump refused to testify and answer Mueller's questions.
• That Trump dangled a pardon to decrease witness cooperation.
• That Trump and GOP failed to pass legislation to strengthen our elections and deter foreign meddling.
• That instead Trump used national defense funds to attempt to bribe an ally into meddling in our election.
• That Trump has continued to hide his taxes and financial records.
• That Trump spoke alone with Putin multiple times. 
• That Russia is currently interfering in the 2020 election to get Trump elected again.

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

15 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

It didn't fall short of obstruction, Trump openly told those subpoenaed not to comply.  That's obstruction.  

 

4 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

There were seven or eight pretty open and shut obstruction cases.

Hence the "even if" language, rather than "even though."

[Mdhorn 5,911]

wrong board.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Mdhorn

[Mdhorn 5,911]

wrong board x2

Edited September 26, 2020 by Mdhorn

[notre dame joe 172]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

One thing worth pointing out here.

There is no "probable cause" requirement for the appointment of a special counsel.  The decision to do it lies in the sound discretion of the Attorney General, or in the case of recusal, the Acting Attorney General.

And, while appointment of a Special Counsel insures that the topic of appointment will be investigated, it also divests ongoing rank and file investigations and prosecutions of jurisdiction.

So even if you subscribe to some notion that the Mueller appointment resulted in some kind of ill-founded "witch hunt," you must also concede that the appointment terminated the "covert" Crossfire Hurricane investigation and placed it squarely in the public eye and with accountability that Crossfire Hurricane never would have had.

So, in a sense, if you oppose the Mueller investigation, you advocate for a less accountable version in Crossfire Hurricane, whether you intend to or not.

because there is no other way to close down a rogue team operating in the DOJ.  

[TheStoicPaisano 9,904]

Couldn’t find a Durham thread...

 

[Dnaguy 11,775]

3 minutes ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

Couldn’t find a Durham thread...

 

My guess is there won’t be any report ... ever.

This will go away.

Naked partisan use of the justice department that isn’t going to turn up shit.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

My guess is there won’t be any report ... ever.

This will go away.

Naked partisan use of the justice department that isn’t going to turn up shit.

It doesn't need to turn up shit though. Given the naked power grab going on, I am sometimes surprised when there is restraint.  Barr could make something completely up against Biden right before the election and then retract it right after. No repercussions would occur.

I think the same about SCOTUS. If they get away with what they are doing now, then why not find someone to get rid of the remaining liberal justices too?  Or Biden?  We already know Putin can get these things done. All Trump and the GOP need is the ability to say "I had no knowledge of it."  If they even need that. They could probably openly order it and nobody is going to charge them with anything. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

2 hours ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

Couldn’t find a Durham thread...

 

This will end the same way Behngazi, Hillary Emails, Chris Kobach voter fraud commission, Senate Hunter Biden investigation, etc. all end. They will go away quietly in the night with no skins on the wall, because there was nothing there. Nor did republicans need anything to be there, they just need the investigation so they can allude to "something big coming in the next couple of weeks" to their sheep fox news viewers. They are no different than the Q Annon propagators. 

[jimmyjazz 45,557]

59 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

This will end the same way Behngazi, Hillary Emails, Chris Kobach voter fraud commission, Senate Hunter Biden investigation, etc. all end. They will go away quietly in the night with no skins on the wall, because there was nothing there. Nor did republicans need anything to be there, they just need the investigation so they can allude to "something big coming in the next couple of weeks" to their sheep fox news viewers. They are no different than the Q Annon propagators. 

And by virtue of the fact that those efforts fade with a whimper instead of going out with a bang, they can be resurrected. 

"The Senate/DOJ/whatever is finally investigating Hillary/Hunter/etc.!  Now we'll get to the bottom of it!!!"

[Biff Tannen 45,494]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

And by virtue of the fact that those efforts fade with a whimper instead of going out with a bang, they can be resurrected. 

"The Senate/DOJ/whatever is finally investigating Hillary/Hunter/etc.!  Now we'll get to the bottom of it!!!"

They are either the worst investigators of all time or they are just liars. 

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2,659]

I don't trust Bartiromo one fucking bit. What a pathetic hack and Trump shill she's turned into. Wouldn't be surprised if she's trying to lull D's into a sense of false security. 

[Anastasis 23,395]

12 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

And by virtue of the fact that those efforts fade with a whimper instead of going out with a bang, they can be resurrected. 

"The Senate/DOJ/whatever is finally investigating Hillary/Hunter/etc.!  Now we'll get to the bottom of it!!!"

Welcome back to the thread jimmy. 

[Anastasis 23,395]

I also love the surging confidence guys. Good stuff. 

[jimmyjazz 45,557]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Welcome back to the thread jimmy. 

I didn't realize I had been staying away.  Once you mischaracterized my position towards the end of my attempt to understand where you stood, I gave up on that angle.  You can't be trusted to use simple language to explain a simple point.  Fool me once . . .

[Anastasis 23,395]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

Once you mischaracterized my position towards the end of my attempt to understand where you stood, I gave up on that angle.  You can't be trusted to use simple language to explain a simple point.  Fool me once . . .

What the fuck are you talking about? This was your last post in the exchange.  Don't try to deflect if you never really sought to engage in good faith Jimmy. It's like two pages back, so you really aren't gonna fool anyone. 

  

On 8/13/2020 at 7:54 PM, jimmyjazz said:

Sorry, just got distracted by other things.  I'll re-read your last post and get back to you.

 

[GW Hayduke 1,952]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I also love the surging confidence guys. Good stuff. 

What is Lady G saying these days?

Trump was the real victim? 

The deep state was way too mean to ittle Trump?

Hunter Biden was the mastermind behind it all?

Barr is on the cusp of bringing the entire house of cards a tumblin?

[Biff Tannen 45,494]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

Barr is on the cusp of bringing the entire house of cards a tumblin?

Their October surprise will be some version of this.

[Anastasis 23,395]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

What is Lady G saying these days?

Trump was the real victim? 

The deep state was way too mean to ittle Trump?

Hunter Biden was the mastermind behind it all?

Barr is on the cusp of bringing the entire house of cards a tumblin?

Look at this fucking clown. 

[GW Hayduke 1,952]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Look at this fucking clown. 

Oh Shit. There must be some real big time news out there.  Come on man. Don’t hold it to yourself. Was it that Hunter was caught sharing  ladybug pics with the Chinese??

[notre dame joe 172]

6 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

My guess is there won’t be any report ... ever.

This will go away.

Naked partisan use of the justice department that isn’t going to turn up shit.

There will be a 'scathing' report that blames lack of training or some other wishy washy sweeping it under the rug.  Who polices the police?  Generally other police who wouldn't want to face their own heat. 

 

The judgment will be left to History which will (eventually) tell how Obama's government spied on the opposing party and tried to destroy the subsequent President.  And as usual no one went to jail.