The Robert Mueller Investigation

[suddenly shaggy 929]

It would help Mueller to wrap the investigation up if Trump would stop committing crimes.

[Buzzrock 14859]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Just because he has come to the same conclusion doesn't mean he has all the evidence he wants. Could he make a case already if he wanted? I personally think so. But, as the saying goes, if you come at the king, you best not miss. Waiting a little bit longer gets you more evidence so that your shot aims true.  

I feel like you'll be saying this same thing in a year.

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So you have no answer to the fact that compared to other investigations, Mueller's is moving along rather quickly.

According to that chart, they already have as many indictments and pleas as the other charts, maybe more. So shouldn't it be over?

[BurntOrange&White 39272]

Do you not care about Russian interference in our electoral process at all?

[Buzzrock 14859]

5 minutes ago, suddenly shaggy said:

It would help Mueller to wrap the investigation up if Trump would stop committing crimes.

"Hang on Lou, we can't arrest the murderer yet, he might kill some more people. Then we'll REALLY nab him!"

I honestly can't believe you guys aren't more pissed about this.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

I feel like you'll be saying this same thing in a year.

According to that chart, they already have as many indictments and pleas as the other charts, maybe more. So shouldn't it be over?

That's an absurd conclusion to draw.  Why would every scandal necessarily have the same amount of potential illegality? 

[Buzzrock 14859]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

That's an absurd conclusion to draw.  Why would every scandal necessarily have the same amount of potential illegality? 

The whole point of the chart is to show how "big" Mueller's investigation has become. It says it in the title.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

2 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

According to that chart, they already have as many indictments and pleas as the other charts, maybe more. So shouldn't it be over?

Yeah, that's how investigations usually work.  "MCCLUSKY!  We are only allowed to catch 5 guys in this investigation!   What are you doing looking at that sixth guy?!  I want your badge on my desk in the morning!"

Edited September 5, 2018 by SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

[David Dennison 18487]

2 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

According to that chart, they already have as many indictments and pleas as the other charts, maybe more. So shouldn't it be over?

Um, no.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

The whole point of the chart is to show how "big" Mueller's investigation has become. It says it in the title.

How big it has become not in a vacuum, but rather in such a short period of time.  That's why there's a timeline axis.   It's from a piece entitled "The Russia Investigation Is Moving Really Freaking Fast. " 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-russia-investigation-is-moving-really-freaking-fast/

[Buzzrock 14859]

1 minute ago, Bevo VIII said:

Do you not care about Russian interference in our electoral process at all?

Not really. What has been proven so far is that Russia tried to meddle in our elections, largely by triggering idiots on Facebook. It has not been proven that they succeeded. I also do not believe that Putin and Trump got together and conspired to get him elected. I imagine Russia always has and always will try to fuck with our elections. We should return the favor.

I'm MUCH more worried about actual Russian hacking like the Not Petya event. I might even favor military retaliation if they do something like that again.

I do think that Trump is a terrible president, stirs up the worst in the conservative half of the country, has atrocious foreign policy, a racist track record, and has turned the national discourse in this country into total toxicity. So if Mueller has enough to create the pressure to oust him (a tall task) then get after it.

[Buzzrock 14859]

4 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

How big it has become not in a vacuum, but rather in such a short period of time.  That's why there's a timeline axis.   It's from a piece entitled "The Russia Investigation Is Moving Really Freaking Fast. " 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-russia-investigation-is-moving-really-freaking-fast/

From six months ago

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

From six months ago

Have the other investigations become shorter during that time or are you unable to actually read the chart, relying only on titles and captions to form your thoughts? 

[BurntOrange&White 39272]

Not really. What has been proven so far is that Russia tried to meddle in our elections, largely by triggering idiots on Facebook. It has not been proven that they succeeded. I also do not believe that Putin and Trump got together and conspired to get him elected. I imagine Russia always has and always will try to fuck with our elections. We should return the favor.
I'm MUCH more worried about actual Russian hacking like the Not Petya event. I might even favor military retaliation if they do something like that again.
I do think that Trump is a terrible president, stirs up the worst in the conservative half of the country, has atrocious foreign policy, a racist track record, and has turned the national discourse in this country into total toxicity. So if Mueller has enough to create the pressure to oust him (a tall task) then get after it.

Turn in your citizenship then you cowardly pussy. Gtfo out my country.

[Buzzrock 14859]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Have the other investigations become shorter during that time or are you unable to actually read the chart, relying only on titles and captions to form your thoughts? 

You don't think six months is a significant amount of time?

[Buzzrock 14859]

3 minutes ago, Bevo VIII said:

Turn in your citizenship then you cowardly pussy. Gtfo out my country.

That's an interesting offer but I'll have to pass. Good talk though.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

You don't think six months is a significant amount of time?

I don't think it affects the comparative speed of this investigation versus other special counsel investigations, per that chart, in a significant way. Especially when you factor in the additional indictments/pleas/verdicts Mueller has generated during that time.

Add six months to the Mueller investigation on that chart.   Where does it now fall compared to other ones? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Mojo Hand

[Buzzrock 14859]

Look I know you guys are all wound up. And I'm sure you think I fit into all the things you know you know about anyone who isn't in lockstep with you on Trump and Mueller. But I assure you I want Trump gone. I did not vote for him. I would have preferred Bernie over Hillary or Trump, but instead I did what I've been doing for many years and voted for the Libertarian. But you've already decided what you know about people like me so you won't believe that.

Everyone agrees there is a mountain of evidence.
Many agree that he has admitted to enough to take him down (emoluments, etc.).
This isn't Whitewater, Clinton wasn't spending every single day driving the country apart, cozying up to our enemies, campaigning and golfing instead of leading.

Every day Trump is in office is a bad day for the US. Get the fuck on with it already.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

The Mueller investigation is like FIVE separate investigations and every rock that gets turned over probably inspires a new investigation. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Buzzrock 14859]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I don't think it affects the comparative speed of this investigation versus other special counsel investigations, per that chart, in a significant way. Especially when you factor in the additional indictments/pleas/verdicts Mueller has generated during that time.

Add six months to the Mueller investigation on that chart.   Where does it now fall compared to other ones? 

I don't know, do you have an updated chart?

What is an acceptable time frame for you? If we're still here in a year will you be frustrated?

[Buzzrock 14859]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The Mueller investigation is like FIVE separate investigations and every rock that gets turned over probably inspires a new investigation. 

Same question for you: how long is too long? The difference here is that the rabid ape in the WH is continuing to do damage while the investigation continues. That has to be a factor.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

I don't know, do you have an updated chart?

What is an acceptable time frame for you? If we're still here in a year will you be frustrated?

Sure, here's one from a month and a half ago.   Shockingly, all of the other investigations haven't changed, and Mueller's is still enormously productive at a historically fast pace. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

Same question for you: how long is too long? The difference here is that the rabid ape in the WH is continuing to do damage while the investigation continues. That has to be a factor.

Not Mueller's job to remove Trump. 

Congress can do their job at anytime. 

[David Dennison 18487]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

Same question for you: how long is too long? The difference here is that the rabid ape in the WH is continuing to do damage while the investigation continues. That has to be a factor.

If there is criminality on the part of the president, the only way to remove him from office is to make it politically untenable for Republicans on the Hill to continue to support him. See Watergate.

That is going to take a boat load of evidence. Gathering that much evidence takes time. Mueller is moving as quickly as can be expected.

[Buzzrock 14859]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Sure, here's one from a month and a half ago.   Shockingly, all of the other investigations haven't changed, and Mueller's is still enormously productive at a historically fast pace. 

Would you say more productive and faster than any other investigation ever?

[triplehorn 2664]

On loop:  It's bigger than Trump.  

As bad as things look in the WH, the potential chaos when the big slab breaks loose could be very considerable.  I'd imagine there is some pretty intense contingency planning going on, bordering on war gaming, that spans areas well outside of actual court proceedings and is contributing to the timeline of events unfolding.  It certainly feels like something big is about to give.  I can't imagine things simmering down and returning to any semblance of a status quo.  We're in unsustainable territory now.

[Buzzrock 14859]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Not Mueller's job to remove Trump. 

Congress can do their job at anytime. 

Dude. Come on.

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If there is criminality on the part of the president, the only way to remove him from office is to make it politically untenable for Republicans on the Hill to continue to support him. See Watergate.

That is going to take a boat load of evidence. Gathering that much evidence takes time. Mueller is moving as quickly as can be expected.

Agree to disagree.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

Would you say more productive and faster than any other investigation ever?

No, because I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of all investigations.   Nor would it be relevant.   Seriously, what are you trying to do here? 

[Buzzrock 14859]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

No, because I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of all investigations.   Nor would it be relevant.   Seriously, what are you trying to do here? 

I am opining that this "enormously productive" "historically fast" investigation needs to present its findings, because if the building is on fire I'm not that concerned with measuring how hight the flames are and would prefer we just go ahead and put it out.

 

[jimmyjazz 45430]

28 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Not really. What has been proven so far is that Russia tried to meddle in our elections, largely by triggering idiots on Facebook. It has not been proven that they succeeded.

Well, you don't know what Mueller knows.  Moreover, if it took 6 more months to find solid evidence that they succeeded, would that not interest you?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

8 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Dude. Come on.

What is Mueller going to do? 

Trump has already been fingered in open court under oath as an unindicted felony co-conspirator in a criminal conspiracy involving cheating in his own presidential election.

Yet not one hearing about this on the Hill.

So what is Mueller’s report going to prove?

Ive been saying for a year the only way to start to fix this is the 2018 midterms and even then it might not be enough.

Mueller’s job is to report the truth based on an exhaustive investigation of the facts. 

Mueller isn’t going to save America from Trump.

It’s on us.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Dahobbs 17408]

31 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I feel like you'll be saying this same thing in a year.

Your point? I would love it if this was something that can be wrapped up in a year or two. But I also have been practicing long enough to know that is crazy. This is too big and there is too much at stake to just rush through it because Buzzrock is impatient. And, ultimately, I don't think it is Mueller's job to remove the President (nor do I believe he has the authority to do so). That is the job of two groups: Congress and voters. Mueller's job is to cleanup everyone else associated with it. Mueller's job is to present a mountain of evidence, convictions, and pleas so that Congress and/or voters have no choice but to remove Trump from office.  He has done that job methodically and quickly so far. You don't take down the mob all at once. You do it piece by piece. And you don't do it in 6 months either. It takes years. That is reality.

 

[Buzzrock 14859]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, you don't know what Mueller knows.  Moreover, if it took 6 more months to find solid evidence that they succeeded, would that not interest you?

Of course I don't. Neither do you. Yes it would interest me.

If Mueller were to present whatever he has now, does that mean he has to stop investigating?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

I am opining that this "enormously productive" "historically fast" investigation needs to present its findings, because if the building is on fire I'm not that concerned with measuring how hight the flames are and would prefer we just go ahead and put it out.

 

He's a cop, not a fireman.   What you're describing is not his job.   

[Dahobbs 17408]

2 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I am opining that this "enormously productive" "historically fast" investigation needs to present its findings, because if the building is on fire I'm not that concerned with measuring how hight the flames are and would prefer we just go ahead and put it out.

 

Great. Ask Congress to do that. It isn't in Mueller's power. All he can do is keep indicting and convicting the other people associated with the fire. I feel like Mueller could have Trump's entire administration behind bars and you'd still be bitching that he hasn't arrested Trump, which he can't fucking do.  

[David Dennison 18487]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

Of course I don't. Neither do you. Yes it would interest me.

If Mueller were to present whatever he has now, does that mean he has to stop investigating?

Why tip your hand?

[Dahobbs 17408]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

Of course I don't. Neither do you. Yes it would interest me.

If Mueller were to present whatever he has now, does that mean he has to stop investigating?

Sure, tell everyone you're investigating everything you know about them. No way does that totally back fire and end up losing you witnesses and evidence.  Remind me to play poker with you.  

[DDD Dad 14144]

Is it just me or does it seem like the trolls have come back en masse in the last 24 hours?

[Buzzrock 14859]

12 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

He's a cop, not a fireman.   What you're describing is not his job.   

OK then go with my murderer analogy.

[Buzzrock 14859]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Is it just me or does it seem like the trolls have come back en masse in the last 24 hours?

bt is here?

[Buzzrock 14859]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Sure, tell everyone you're investigating everything you know about them. No way does that totally back fire and end up losing you witnesses and evidence.  Remind me to play poker with you.  

I'm a pretty decent poker player.

Do you think the Trump admin doesn't know they are being investigated? That's not exactly a secret.

[Ted Lange 15975]

I wish Mueller would wrap it up.  But I don’t have the slightest idea what all information he has at this point and wether now would be the prudent time to wrap it up. 

[Brisketexan 104238]

21 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Look I know you guys are all wound up. And I'm sure you think I fit into all the things you know you know about anyone who isn't in lockstep with you on Trump and Mueller. But I assure you I want Trump gone. I did not vote for him. I would have preferred Bernie over Hillary or Trump, but instead I did what I've been doing for many years and voted for the Libertarian. But you've already decided what you know about people like me so you won't believe that.

Everyone agrees there is a mountain of evidence.
Many agree that he has admitted to enough to take him down (emoluments, etc.).
This isn't Whitewater, Clinton wasn't spending every single day driving the country apart, cozying up to our enemies, campaigning and golfing instead of leading.

Every day Trump is in office is a bad day for the US. Get the fuck on with it already.

I certainly feel that way.  But...

14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If there is criminality on the part of the president, the only way to remove him from office is to make it politically untenable for Republicans on the Hill to continue to support him. See Watergate.

That is going to take a boat load of evidence. Gathering that much evidence takes time. Mueller is moving as quickly as can be expected.

To put it another way:

When you strike at the king, you must kill him.

Mueller has one shot.  One.  He needs to strike with undeniable and overwhelming evidence and strategy.  He won't get a do-over.

And....

12 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

On loop:  It's bigger than Trump.  

As bad as things look in the WH, the potential chaos when the big slab breaks loose could be very considerable.  I'd imagine there is some pretty intense contingency planning going on, bordering on war gaming, that spans areas well outside of actual court proceedings and is contributing to the timeline of events unfolding.  It certainly feels like something big is about to give.  I can't imagine things simmering down and returning to any semblance of a status quo.  We're in unsustainable territory now.

....this.  If you're going to take out the king, there's a whole waterfall of issues - of literally global significance - that will have to be dealt with.

With all that said, IF this regime is taken down, it will happen two ways: very slowly, and then all at once.  IF it's going to happen, you'll see huge development and action one on top of the other, in a matter of a few days, and then it's over.

[David Dennison 18487]

7 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I'm a pretty decent poker player.

Do you think the Trump admin doesn't know they are being investigated? That's not exactly a secret.

They don't know who the targets are.

 

[Dahobbs 17408]

6 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I'm a pretty decent poker player.

Do you think the Trump admin doesn't know they are being investigated? That's not exactly a secret.

I have no doubt they know of the investigation. But they don't know everything the investigator's know. Just like everyone at the table knows what the game is, but does not know the other players' hands. Maybe you think there is no value in that information. You'd be wrong, but I guess you're free to think whatever. 

[Buzzrock 14859]

20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Your point? I would love it if this was something that can be wrapped up in a year or two. But I also have been practicing long enough to know that is crazy. This is too big and there is too much at stake to just rush through it because Buzzrock is impatient. And, ultimately, I don't think it is Mueller's job to remove the President (nor do I believe he has the authority to do so). That is the job of two groups: Congress and voters. Mueller's job is to cleanup everyone else associated with it. Mueller's job is to present a mountain of evidence, convictions, and pleas so that Congress and/or voters have no choice but to remove Trump from office.  He has done that job methodically and quickly so far. You don't take down the mob all at once. You do it piece by piece. And you don't do it in 6 months either. It takes years. That is reality.

 

First off, his job is not to find Trump guilty. That's an important distinction. And as much as I want Trump gone I am not in favor of setting precedent that a SC's job is to help support a particular position on guilt or innocence.

Yes I am impatient. This isn't Al Capone or some criminal mastermind. It's the biggest idiot to ever hold the office.

[Ted Lange 15975]

To use the murder analogy.  There are 7 people dead, the investigation team has a high degree of certainty of who killed 3 of them, they also think it’s likely the same person with the help of other people killed the other 4.  Do they just stop investigating and hope they have enough evidence to convict the killer of the 3 people, or is it a better idea to keep digging and get all the facts?

[Buzzrock 14859]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Mueller has one shot.  One.  He needs to strike with undeniable and overwhelming evidence and strategy.  He won't get a do-over.

 

This part I don't understand. Does he have to turn in his badge once he presents findings? Why wouldn't he be able to continue to prosecute.

And how does he know when he's done? Trump has been in (crooked) business for decades. The "any other crimes that may arise" part of his charter could have him investigating people connected to Trump for the rest of his natural life.

 

[Buzzrock 14859]

2 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

To use the murder analogy.  There are 7 people dead, the investigation team has a high degree of certainty of who killed 3 of them, they also think it’s likely the same person with the help of other people killed the other 4.  Do they just stop investigating and hope they have enough evidence to convict the killer of the 3 people, or is it a better idea to keep digging and get all the facts?

If the bodies keep piling up then you make the arrest.

[kevwun 15572]

He's just asking questions, folks.

[Buzzrock 14859]

Just now, kevwun said:

He's just asking questions, folks.

Somebody else already used that one, zero points.