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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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bolverk

bolverk 29261

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

No offense to you personally but I’m sick and tired of hearing the term “perjury trap.”

In order to get caught in one, you have to be both a criminal and a liar.

You could be the biggest criminal in the whole world. You know how you avoid a “perjury trap?” You tell the truth when asked about your crimes by the feds

You could be the biggest liar in the whole world. You know how your avoid the “perjury trap?” You tell the truth when asked about your crimes by the feds.

Or you could just invoke the 5th and not have to say shit. Easiest way ever invented to avoid the ole “perjury trap.” 

Its actually real easy to avoid the perjury trap. Just don’t be a lying criminal and you’re good. Or take the 5th and take it to a jury. 

I really wish I'd placed the necessary air quotes around "perjury trap" as my post was intended to be viewed as sarcastic.

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Mdhorn

Mdhorn 5897

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, SKJ said:

From what I understand, the damage everyone suspects is that via their shared defense, Mueller set up manafort to answer with lies and then share those lies with Trump (shared defense). This is most likely why Mueller waited until Trump turned in his written answers to hammer manafort's lies.

Now they're both on record, both locked into a story, and now he gets to prosecute those lies in open court through the mini trial

basically it was the only reason Mueller opted to give DOTARD a written take home test.  And yeah, DOTARD promptly failed it.  

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Junior Miller

Junior Miller 1502

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

No offense to you personally but I’m sick and tired of hearing the term “perjury trap.”

In order to get caught in one, you have to be both a criminal and a liar.

You could be the biggest criminal in the whole world. You know how you avoid a “perjury trap?” You tell the truth when asked about your crimes by the feds

You could be the biggest liar in the whole world. You know how your avoid the “perjury trap?” You tell the truth when asked about your crimes by the feds.

Or you could just invoke the 5th and not have to say shit. Easiest way ever invented to avoid the ole “perjury trap.” 

Its actually real easy to avoid the perjury trap. Just don’t be a lying criminal and you’re good. Or take the 5th and take it to a jury. 

Ok good, but what does any of that have to do with the term perjury trap?

If you know a guy will lie to you and you want to prove it you set things up in a way where he lies about something you can materially disprove. Therefore you set a perjury trap. 

The term is more about the person setting it not the idiot lying and falling in the trap. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

 


So he spoke with Stone or Corsi about Wikileaks.

Glad that’s out there.

 

He also denies colluding with Russia and calls the investigation a witch hunt. Which of course means he did collude with Russia and the investigation is not in fact a witch hunt.

Trump makes figuring out the truth so much easier nowadays.

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Jiggy-Z

Jiggy-Z 3427

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, lemonlime said:

The sad part is that speech primarily makes me miss having a president who can talk I’m coherent and complete sentences 

My thoughts on the oratory skills of recent POTUSs.:

Nixon, Ford, Carter were all pretty much much paint by the numbers type of guys, got the job done with minimal gaffs and a few idiosyncrasies thrown in.

Reagan: Best speaker in my lifetime.  Might have been full of shit on some things, but could do it all (caring grandpa, humor, hard ass, feel good story).

Bush I:  Also a paint by the numbers guy who tried to get outside the box on occasion with no success, also not as good at number painting as group one. Perhaps judged a little harshly compared to Reagan.

Clinton: good speaker, smart guy, but really overrated as a public speaker.  Benefited from contrast with Bush I.

Bush II: Inherited his father's uneasiness with connecting to an audience, not good impromptu, butchered the language on occasion.

Obama: Great speaker able to explain more complex subjects with understandable language , good impromptu skills, not as good as Reagan.

Trump: Really wanders around whatever subject he is addressing, good at hitting the high points points and rallying cries, would be much better if he had better positions and stuck to the painting by the numbers, natural ability not the worst of the bunch, but final product easily the worst and when bad its really bad.

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Captainant

Captainant 27250

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

So basically Trump has been relying on a leak.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/paul-manafort-lawyer-told-trump-021628419.html

Also notable is that guliani confirmed that dotard and manafort were joint defense agreement in which means they we're sharing EVERYTHING. It's perfectly legal, but most frequently used by mobsters. 

Also, likely that if manafort lied then trump echoed it. Which would be fun. 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45439

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

Trump: Really wanders around whatever subject he is addressing, good at hitting the high points points and rallying cries, would be much better if he had better positions and stuck to the painting by the numbers, natural ability not the worst of the bunch, but final product easily the worst and when bad its really bad.

This is extraordinarily generous.  The man's a yammering fool.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

No argument here. I am often pleasantly surprised at how much better his audio sounds compared to reading a transcript of same...that's all I got.

Trump's audio isn't much better. Even the best speakers have repetition and filler words that make transcripts a tough read so that doesn't mean much. Trump's video is even worse because he has the most ridiculous body language ever when speaking. 

 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

Ok good, but what does any of that have to do with the term perjury trap?

If you know a guy will lie to you and you want to prove it you set things up in a way where he lies about something you can materially disprove. Therefore you set a perjury trap. 

The term is more about the person setting it not the idiot lying and falling in the trap. 

Because it’s not a trap. Before testifying you are warned to tell the truth and someone will warn you of the consequences for not doing so. It’s not that hard to tell the truth.

If I tell you don’t go in that swamp because there are a bunch of gators in there, and you wander into the swamp anyway and get eaten by a gator, did I set an “alligator trap” on you?   

Nope it means you got eaten by a gator because you’re a dumbass, like trumps good friend Paul. It’s why trumps lawyers won’t let trump testify, they know for an absolute fact he will lie and commit perjury. 

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Junior Miller

Junior Miller 1502

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Because it’s not a trap. Before testifying you are warned to tell the truth and someone will warn you of the consequences for not doing so. It’s not that hard to tell the truth.

If I tell you don’t go in that swamp because there are a bunch of gators in there, and you wander into the swamp anyway and get eaten by a gator, did I set an “alligator trap” on you?   

Nope it means you got eaten by a gator because you’re a dumbass, like trumps good friend Paul. It’s why trumps lawyers won’t let trump testify, they know for an absolute fact he will lie and commit perjury. 

It is a trap because you're setting the person who you know will lie up to lie specifically in a way you can immediately disprove with facts. Mueller is also potentially trapping trump through manafort in a way that bypasses executive privilege. Since Manafort's sentencing will be open information to the public Mueller can outline the exact ways in which manafort and trump lied as a part of public record that trump cannot have sealed under executive privilege. 

It's most definitely a trap. 

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staboner

staboner 4955

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Ronald Reagan was stupid.

It would not make for a good debate.

i don't know if stupid is the right word. but he was definitely the perfect R president. he was the guy that could get the white poors to believe in America and to believe they will eventually be rich. Reagan was that guy. The red collapse doesn't hurt either

Of course if thats your strategy you end up with this - Trump. because, well, the voters are addicted to it. 

anyone getting arrested soon? this fucking sucks. 

Edited by staboner
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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

It is a trap because you're setting the person who you know will lie up to lie specifically in a way you can immediately disprove with facts. Mueller is also potentially trapping trump through manafort in a way that bypasses executive privilege. Since Manafort's sentencing will be open information to the public Mueller can outline the exact ways in which manafort and trump lied as a part of public record that trump cannot have sealed under executive privilege. 

It's most definitely a trap. 

Is it a trap if you're not charged with perjury ?

Manafort's "mini-trial" sentencing hearing with the judge is an opportunity for Mueller to reveal a lot of evidence to substantiate and provide context for the "joint" lying.  It's an opportunity to plaster Trump as an un-indicted co-conspirator.  If that happens, it potentially obliterates any pretense that Trump can get away with pardoning all those involved as a means to obstruct justice around his own criminality, i.e. you can't use a pardon to cover for co-conspiracy.  We'll see what happens soon enough, but this won't be about springing a perjury trap on Trump as an end game.  It'll necessarily come later, but I'm certain Mueller has all the hard evidence to drive it home.

 

Edited by triplehorn
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TornACL

TornACL 7666

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

He was a moron. Everything was scripted. Everything.

RONALD REAGAN: "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this walk."

REAGAN SCREENWRITER, TO SECRETARY TYPIST: "Goddamnit, Lucy, you stupid bitch."

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Captainant

Captainant 27250

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, retread said:

 

So I don't know how it got lost in the churn, but it's been in the public knowledge since early October that trump has over 30 JDA's with Mueller probe targets.

Quote

The president's attorneys talk openly about these “joint defense agreements” that they say were established to keep them connected with lawyers tied to the president’s aides, allies and associates. They took the lead in organizing weekly conference calls earlier this year to strategize with other counsel during an intense period of Mueller’s investigation. In total, Trump’s lawyers have publicly noted they have more than 30 so-called JDAs with Mueller probe targets. Under these agreements, Trump’s attorneys can seek details on everything from what questions and documents Mueller’s team is asking about to who’s on the verge of criminal indictment.

The arrangement itself is routine for complex investigations where scores of people get drawn in as witnesses, subjects and even targets. Staying in touch through formalized JDAs is a way to share information under the protection of attorney-client privilege.

But the Trump team’s use of JDAs has pushed legal boundaries, especially in the instances where the president’s lawyers claim to have maintained these relationships with defense teams representing Mueller targets who have flipped to cooperate with the Russia probe.

I think we are going to see some more shit hit this particular fan. There's a reason Mueller has been treating this case like a mob case in how he's approached it.

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18134

Posted
Posted

Joint defense communications are only privileged to the extent the joint defendants share a common legal interest.  I believe it will be difficult to show a common legal interest between a target of an investigation and a state’s witness.  All communications between Trump and a witness that flipped made after the flip occurred should be discoverable.  

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Amos Moses

Amos Moses 795

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Joint defense communications are only privileged to the extent the joint defendants share a common legal interest.  I believe it will be difficult to show a common legal interest between a target of an investigation and a state’s witness.  All communications between Trump and a witness that flipped made after the flip occurred should be discoverable.  

Agree - and the lawyer(s) that facilitated the communication between Manafort and Trump after the plea deal should be required to withdraw and may be subject to sanctions and/or criminal liability.

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