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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18326

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23 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Stone and Manafort are the poster boys for “swamp creature” in politics 

You have to admire the GOP’s genius for creating a problem, profiting from it, then selling their guy as the solution to the problem they created, all while said guy does nothing but exacerbate the problem.  

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TornACL

TornACL 7766

Posted
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11 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Yeah I can only take Rachel in small doses. Countdown was must see for a while. He made that network. Rachel is thorough and hard working but she wears me out. GET TO THE GOT DAM POINT 

She is the master of the penalty kill. In between commercials you might get one salient point surrounded by 50000 words. 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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Related to the question of the purpose of superseding indictments from a page or two back, here's another example highly relevant in this case to making sure you bag ALL of the co-conspirators:

 

Mueller's report IS the story the sequence of indictments tells.  The 12 indicted Russian military intelligence are directly linked to Roger Stone's case, and within Stone's case Mueller reveals they have evidence that a senior campaign official was ‘directed’ in July 2016 to contact Mr. Stone about additional Wikileaks releases.  Who would be directing a 'senior' campaign official to contact Stone, a man referred to by Manafort as indistinguishable from Trump?  It's Trump.

18 U.S. Code § 371  - Conspiracy to defraud the US.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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Seems like a lot of obstruction charges are due too since all these motherfuckers have been lying about Russia for years.

That’s a real consequential crime now because Trump wouldn’t be able to run out the clock unless everyone was obstructing on his behalf. 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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No joke:

 

Stupid Watergate = thinking your encrypted WhatsApp comms are secure.

The volume of signals intelligence, both foreign and domestic implicating conspirators will be staggering.  

Because the Russian election conspiracy has now penetrated Trump's inner circle with associated indictments of Roger Stone, I expect things to accelerate with Mueller.  They don't need anyone else to flip.  They've got the goods on Trump and his family, and then some.  I still think the thing to watch for that would lead to Trump leaving office imminently will be Mueller making the move on RUS/NRA/RNC ---> Mitch.

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Degenerate Gardner

Degenerate Gardner 4104

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3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Suspect confesses to crime on national television.

two years later...

Still investigating...

 

At what point do we ask ourselves if we’re being played? 

Skepticism is fine, but whom do you suggest is playing us and for what purpose?

As you know, the Trump-Russia-GOP-NRA-FOX-Social Networking-Hacking-Organized Crime-Campaign Finance investigation is multifaceted.  Shit takes time.  You've seen the graphics: Mueller's ahead of schedule on indictments compared to historical norms. 

I dare say that there's been no American criminal conspiracy of comparable scope.  Complicating that is the American peoples' and moreover the world's collective need for the case to be airtight and not allow conspirators to wriggle free.  Stone was indicted Friday.  Patience.

The wait is excruciating.  Stakes and emotions are very high.  I get it. 

Try not to catastrophize.

 

Edited by Degenerate Gardner
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Doc Reeves

Doc Reeves 6434

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, triplehorn said:

Related to the question of the purpose of superseding indictments from a page or two back, here's another example highly relevant in this case to making sure you bag ALL of the co-conspirators:

 

Mueller's report IS the story the sequence of indictments tells.  The 12 indicted Russian military intelligence are directly linked to Roger Stone's case, and within Stone's case Mueller reveals they have evidence that a senior campaign official was ‘directed’ in July 2016 to contact Mr. Stone about additional Wikileaks releases.  Who would be directing a 'senior' campaign official to contact Stone, a man referred to by Manafort as indistinguishable from Trump?  It's Trump.

18 U.S. Code § 371  - Conspiracy to defraud the US.

Yeah but Trump is going to try and pin it on Kushner. 

You can already see their play developing. I think Kushner is genuinely ignorant that he’s going to be the scapegoat.

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Hugo Stiglitz

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1 minute ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Played by whom and for what purpose?

As you know, the Trump-Russia-GOP-NRA-FOX-Social Networking-Hacking-Organized Crime-Campaign Finance investigation is multifaceted.  Shit takes time.  You've seen the graphics: Mueller's ahead of schedule on indictments compared to historical norms. 

I dare say that there's been no American criminal conspiracy of comparable scope.  Complicating that is the American peoples' and moreover the world's collective need for the case to be airtight and not allow conspirators to wiggle free.  Stone was indicted Friday.  Patience.

The wait is excruciating.  Stakes and emotions are very high.  I get it. 

Skepticism is fine.  Hysteria is not.  Try not to catastrophize.

 

I get that but we’ve seen so many efforts at obstruction and nothing has stopped Trump from continuing to obstruct.  Eventually, obstructing will win or lose for Trump.

I think the obstruction investigation of two years ago should be complete by now, right?  

But oh yeah, we have to wait for the completion of the most complex international criminal conspiracy of all time while the guy guilty of obstruction continues to obstruct. 

Seems like this isn’t going to end well or any time soon.

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Michael Knight

Michael Knight 13049

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On 1/25/2019 at 5:28 PM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

50758788_798105010543289_300315708889025

Thats actually Ivanka's neighbor

Quote

On Saturday night, hundreds of people danced outside of Ivanka Trump's Washington home to call attention to the Trump administration's climate policies. As the music turned up and the dancers twirled, Ivanka's well-to-do neighbors came outside to take in the sights, which included a guy in booty shorts twerking on top of an SUV. One particularly chic neighbor, who lives across the street from the Trump-Kushners, has become a viral sensation: A Daily Mail photo of her clutching a glass of white wine, enjoying the scene while wrapped in a luxe fur coat, has the internet ablaze.

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a9230192/ivanka-trump-neighbor-watches-protest-interview/

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Goredho

Goredho 17512

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1 hour ago, triplehorn said:

No joke:

 

Stupid Watergate = thinking your encrypted WhatsApp comms are secure.

The volume of signals intelligence, both foreign and domestic implicating conspirators will be staggering.  

Because the Russian election conspiracy has now penetrated Trump's inner circle with associated indictments of Roger Stone, I expect things to accelerate with Mueller.  They don't need anyone else to flip.  They've got the goods on Trump and his family, and then some.  I still think the thing to watch for that would lead to Trump leaving office imminently will be Mueller making the move on RUS/NRA/RNC ---> Mitch.

That would be interesting.  Trump may be unimpeachable because of McConnell and some other Republicans in the Senate.  But if they are complicit in conspiracy or obstruction, why not take them down first and remove that umbrella of protection they are giving the President?

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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7 minutes ago, Goredho said:

That would be interesting.  Trump may be unimpeachable because of McConnell and some other Republicans in the Senate.  But if they are complicit in conspiracy or obstruction, why not take them down first and remove that umbrella of protection they are giving the President?

It’s a prerequisite, I believe.  Once the Senate firewall falls, there will be a rapid collapse of Trump’s ability to remain in office.

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18326

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I hope they don’t try to offer Stone a deal.  

As far as reliable and credible cooperating witnesses go, Roger Stone is the worst case scenario.

He should only get a deal if he has a safe of smoking guns.

Yeah, Stone is an habitual liar on the same level as Trump.  And he has a history of working against his employers’ interests.  Ask Pat Buchanan how trustworthy Roger Stone is.  Fuck letting him anywhere near a witness stand.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30093

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The last thing I care about are his sexual habits. It's just a distraction. The only reason I care about Trumps sexcapades are because he lied about them and tried to cover it up in a fraudulent way.

Stone, Manafort, and Atwater are/were throbbing tumors on our cancer-ridden election and governing processes. Their firm led the way in turning election campaigning into lobbying after the election. They're filth. I didn't lament Atwater's brain cancer. I won't lament these other two vile crooks spending their golden years behind bars.

If I were to go after something trivial on Stone, it'd be the shape of his head. I think he's missing a lobe up front.

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18326

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Trump’s buddies sure do seem to like watching black dudes gang bang their wives. 

These fucking guys.  Every accusation is an admission, and “cuck” is no exception to that rule.

edit: RF beat me to it 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31688

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7 hours ago, triplehorn said:

Related to the question of the purpose of superseding indictments from a page or two back, here's another example highly relevant in this case to making sure you bag ALL of the co-conspirators:

 

Mueller's report IS the story the sequence of indictments tells.  The 12 indicted Russian military intelligence are directly linked to Roger Stone's case, and within Stone's case Mueller reveals they have evidence that a senior campaign official was ‘directed’ in July 2016 to contact Mr. Stone about additional Wikileaks releases.  Who would be directing a 'senior' campaign official to contact Stone, a man referred to by Manafort as indistinguishable from Trump?  It's Trump.

18 U.S. Code § 371  - Conspiracy to defraud the US.

What is the fascination with "conspiracy" charges, besides the whole black helicopters/evil sound of it.

Conspiracy itself isn't a crime, it is just a way to convict people who cooperated to commit a crime, but didn't actually personally commit the crime.

The criminality of a conspiracy is determined by the crime that was allegedly committed by the conspiracy.  There are a relatively few instances in 18 USC where a conspiracy crime is defined separately and carries a greater penalty than the basic crime that may or may not be committed by individuals acting alone, or by a conspiracy.

371, 1001, and 1505 all carry the same maximum penalty of five years.

Conspiracy typically is harder to prove than the crime itself so there's no mystery why Mueller would avoid conspiracy charges wherever possible.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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29 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What is the fascination with "conspiracy" charges, besides the whole black helicopters/evil sound of it.

Conspiracy itself isn't a crime, it is just a way to convict people who cooperated to commit a crime, but didn't actually personally commit the crime.

The criminality of a conspiracy is determined by the crime that was allegedly committed by the conspiracy.  There are a relatively few instances in 18 USC where a conspiracy crime is defined separately and carries a greater penalty than the basic crime that may or may not be committed by individuals acting alone, or by a conspiracy.

371, 1001, and 1505 all carry the same maximum penalty of five years.

Conspiracy typically is harder to prove than the crime itself so there's no mystery why Mueller would avoid conspiracy charges wherever possible.

I suppose there's a range wherein prosecutors draw lines for inclusion in a criminal conspiracy.  But certain crimes require multiple individual roles operating in coordination for the crime to be executed as conceived.  It's more than just knowing about it.  That's what we're seeing w Trump, Stone, Assange, agents of Russian military intelligence, etc.  Together they appear to have defrauded the American people through violation of laws related to their participation in a US election.

 

Re: "Conspiracy typically is harder to prove than the crime itself so there's no mystery why Mueller would avoid conspiracy charges wherever possible."  

Mueller has already charged both Gates and Manafort with "Conspiracy against the United States."  Conspiracy gets harder to prove as the size and complexity increase.  However, I haven't seen any indication Mueller is avoiding it for anyone.  If anything, it's the opposite - Mueller's forming body of indictments complement and overlap with each other.  The conspiracy is being laid out in plain view.  Withholding full conspiracy charges allows discovery to be limited as they advance in what is the most sensitive legal takedown our country has ever faced.  Most importantly for conspiracy, I believe he's got all the evidence.  all of it.

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Seasick Sailor

Seasick Sailor 3747

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8 minutes ago, JimmyHoffa said:

Trump is used to playing checkers. Chess is not his game

Not sure if I read this here or on Twitter, but I recall someone saying something along the lines of people like to claim that trump is playing chess while others are playing checkers when in reality, he's more often than not just eating the pieces. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31688

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15 hours ago, triplehorn said:

I suppose there's a range wherein prosecutors draw lines for inclusion in a criminal conspiracy.  But certain crimes require multiple individual roles operating in coordination for the crime to be executed as conceived.  It's more than just knowing about it.  That's what we're seeing w Trump, Stone, Assange, agents of Russian military intelligence, etc.  Together they appear to have defrauded the American people through violation of laws related to their participation in a US election.

 

Re: "Conspiracy typically is harder to prove than the crime itself so there's no mystery why Mueller would avoid conspiracy charges wherever possible."  

Mueller has already charged both Gates and Manafort with "Conspiracy against the United States."  Conspiracy gets harder to prove as the size and complexity increase.  However, I haven't seen any indication Mueller is avoiding it for anyone.  If anything, it's the opposite - Mueller's forming body of indictments complement and overlap with each other.  The conspiracy is being laid out in plain view.  Withholding full conspiracy charges allows discovery to be limited as they advance in what is the most sensitive legal takedown our country has ever faced.  Most importantly for conspiracy, I believe he's got all the evidence.  all of it.

If there was an indictment against Trump, I would probably expect conspiracy to ___________________ charges.  I'm not sure I expect them in the case of any of the others, really.  371 is kind of a special case because it actually makes non-criminal acts into crimes if they are the subject of a conspiracy to do them, plus, it's the lowest type of federal felony (five year max).  It doesn't add much to most of these prosecutions.  It might if the sentences in federal court were routinely "stacked," but they aren't if you are white.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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Country 1 steals toxic material from the United States for an upcoming attack.

Country 1 then uses organization 1 as the delivery system to disseminate the toxic material on the target population.

Individual 1 intentionally disseminates the stole toxic material with the help of country 1 and organization 1 on the target population.

Individual 1 did this with full knowledge that country 1 stole the the material with the intention of using on the target population.

What is the criminal liability for individual 1?

 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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