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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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FWD

FWD 297

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Interesting twist... Cohen works in NYC and has his office there, which was raided. He also keeps a hotel room in NYC and apparently they raided that too.

 

 

Edited by FWD
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Goredho
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Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

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liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
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I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15666

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I have to tell you--I'm powerfully uncomfortable with raiding lawyers' offices.  I recognize that in a lot of circumstances, the lawyer isn't acting as a lawyer, and so the materials aren't privileged.  But an investigator needs to be real circumspect about that kind of thing.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32545

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4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I have to tell you--I'm powerfully uncomfortable with raiding lawyers' offices.  I recognize that in a lot of circumstances, the lawyer isn't acting as a lawyer, and so the materials aren't privileged.  But an investigator needs to be real circumspect about that kind of thing.

Good point.

I'd have to think whatever Mueller & Co. dredged up was serious enough that they referred this on.  I can't see those folks being cavalier.  

 

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
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4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I have to tell you--I'm powerfully uncomfortable with raiding lawyers' offices.  I recognize that in a lot of circumstances, the lawyer isn't acting as a lawyer, and so the materials aren't privileged.  But an investigator needs to be real circumspect about that kind of thing.

Agreed.  Although I'm not sure Cohen was a lawyer in any sense, except that he apparently passed the bar.    I would be far more troubled to hear that they raided, say, Marc Kasowitz' office.

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shnsajax

shnsajax 3605

Posted
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3 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Good point.

I'd have to think whatever Mueller & Co. dredged up was serious enough that they referred this on.  I can't see those folks being cavalier.  

 

Exactly. This wasn’t done just to conduct a random audit by local law enforcement. 

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yoladu

yoladu 4187

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26 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Mueller's team found potential evidence of a crime that was not related to the Russia investigation, and sent that evidence to the U.S. Attorney in NY to investigate.

Which would suggest it is related to Stormy Daniels and the payment made for the NDA. Unless, of course, there is some other potential crime that has not been bandied about in the press so far.

But yeah, Cohen is a good guy, i am sure he is clean.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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Cohen and Felix Sater are dear friends and business partners going back to high school.

Felix Sater is a career criminal and FBI informant.

Sater + other informants  = Michael  Cohen thrown under bus.

Trump threw Cohen under the bus Friday too with the Stormy Daniels comments.

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Good point.

I'd have to think whatever Mueller & Co. dredged up was serious enough that they referred this on.  I can't see those folks being cavalier.  

 

I doubt it was Mueller who made the decision to raid Cohen's offices.  It sounds like he just referred out certain evidence to the AUSA for NY, and someone in NY made that decision.  Which isn't to suggest the NY people would be cavalier about this, particularly since the decision may well have been made by a Trump appointee.

Also, while raiding an attorney's office is generally something to be very careful with because of attorney client privilege, if there was probable cause that Cohen was conspiring with Trump to commit crimes then the warrant would probably be proper.  There's also plenty of reason to believe that Cohen was only Trump's "lawyer" as a way for Trump and Cohen to try and fraudulently claim that their communications were privileged.  Cohen was Trump's "fixer"----I highly doubt he was giving Trump legal advice.  

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 26177

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28 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I have to tell you--I'm powerfully uncomfortable with raiding lawyers' offices.  I recognize that in a lot of circumstances, the lawyer isn't acting as a lawyer, and so the materials aren't privileged.  But an investigator needs to be real circumspect about that kind of thing.

I'm not a lawyer, but I agree.  I would imagine that the investigators must have had something solid to go on to get a judge to sign that warrant. 

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Captainant

Captainant 28402

Posted
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31 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I have to tell you--I'm powerfully uncomfortable with raiding lawyers' offices.  I recognize that in a lot of circumstances, the lawyer isn't acting as a lawyer, and so the materials aren't privileged.  But an investigator needs to be real circumspect about that kind of thing.

Also not a lawyer but I agree. These raids were no knock raids indicating they expected evidence to be destroyed or concealed if they had any notice. And a federal judge agreed with them enough to sign off on a warrant. We're definitely in uncharted waters but I think in any situation the president's personal lawyer getting popped like this is real fuckin notable

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106630

Posted
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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Also not a lawyer but I agree. These raids were no knock raids indicating they expected evidence to be destroyed or concealed if they had any notice. And a federal judge agreed with them enough to sign off on a warrant. We're definitely in uncharted waters but I think in any situation the president's personal lawyer getting popped like this is real fuckin notable

Very notable.  And I share the other attorneys' discomfort with this.

If it's bad enough for a lawyer's office to get raided...it's bad.  Or it damned well better be.

Shit, my phone can be a portal to client information.  My simple plan, if any law enforcement tries to confiscate it and demands access is "good luck.  Try the passcode till you brick it, I'll buy a new phone."  That's also why I don't enable biometric access (fingerprint).  Numeric code only.  They can't compel you to give that up.

And let's be clear, I'm not doing anything worth hiding - It's just that we lawyer types generally take that "keep client info confidential" requirement seriously.

As for Cohen...who the hell knows what all he got into. It's telling that his only client of any significant appears to be DOTUS.  That tells you he's less of an attorney, and more of an idiot on retainer.  But we'll see what comes out.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23700

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So the read on this is:

1) not related to collusion with Russia, otherwise Mueller would have retained jurisdiction.

2) Mueller found some shady shit, definitely including payoff of the porn star, most likely involved some campaign finance violations. 

3) Likely some other serious shit was uncovered. 

4) They're gonna blow the lid on privileged communications in the process?

5) Lawdogs, since this was referred to USDA in NY, this is still in realm of federal crimes, correct?  Meaning that pardon power in play. Popcorn. 

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Captainant

Captainant 28402

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

5) Lawdogs, since this was referred to USDA in NY, this is still in realm of federal crimes, correct?  Meaning that pardon power in play. Popcorn. 

If the crimes were committed in the state of New York and were against the laws of the state of New York, then the fed agency can refer the issue to the state level law enforcement at which point pardon power means bupkis

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23700

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Just now, Captainant said:

If the crimes were committed in the state of New York and were against the laws of the state of New York, then the fed agency can refer the issue to the state level law enforcement at which point pardon power means bupkis

Even if the crimes are federal campaign finance crimes?

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Captainant

Captainant 28402

Posted
Posted
Just now, Anastasis said:

Even if the crimes are federal campaign finance crimes?

We don't know the nature of the specific crimes being investigated, but the state of new york ALSO has campaign finance laws you know :P

And that doesn't rule out other violations of NY law that they may uncover during their investigation.

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DDD Dad

DDD Dad 14572

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Posted (edited)

I don't think an AUSA would be running warrants for a potential state prosecution.  It could ultimately end up there, but it would be odd for them to be running things.  My guess is they're looking at federal crimes primarily and if something that violates state law comes up they'll provide the information to the local DA's or state's attorney's office.

Edited by DDD Dad
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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 90550

Posted
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3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Syria just got put on the back burner.

Which is probably a good thing since Trump would fuck it up.  Just leave it to Mattis.

Are you kidding?  He’ll take his anger out on Syria, and bonus points for him, it’ll distract the media/public attention. 

Hell, he might even hit Syria much harder than was being considered. 

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 18092

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1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

Are you kidding?  He’ll take his anger out on Syria, and bonus points for him, it’ll distract the media/public attention. 

Hell, he might even hit Syria much harder than was being considered. 

This.  It's a perfect wag-the-dog, rally round the flag (which to DOTUS, means "rally round the DOTUS") moment.

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Bevo VIII said:

Me thinks the trump campaign funneled money to Cohen to give to stormy for a NDA prior or near the time Trump decided to run. I don’t think it goes back to 10 years ago or whatever.

Oh yeah.  Didn’t someone report there were deposits into his accounts of $129,xxx at that time?

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13708

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9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The same act can be a crime for federal and state.  DOTUS can only pardon a federal charge.

But trump can’t pardon someone that commits a crime on his behalf. I suppose he can provide the pardon and the AG can decide to honor the pardon but a future president/AG can look at the pardon differently.  And if that happened, the courts would have to decide the validity of the pardon. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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7 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Are you kidding?  He’ll take his anger out on Syria, and bonus points for him, it’ll distract the media/public attention. 

Hell, he might even hit Syria much harder than was being considered. 

I was talking about what consumes Trump’s personal attention.  He’s not a diabolical genius.  He’s already paranoid AF about Mueller and this just took it to 11.  

He may go with a distraction but I don’t think it will be the Syria situation.

 

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

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14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So the read on this is:

1) not related to collusion with Russia, otherwise Mueller would have retained jurisdiction.

2) Mueller found some shady shit, definitely including payoff of the porn star, most likely involved some campaign finance violations. 

3) Likely some other serious shit was uncovered. 

4) They're gonna blow the lid on privileged communications in the process?

5) Lawdogs, since this was referred to USDA in NY, this is still in realm of federal crimes, correct?  Meaning that pardon power in play. Popcorn. 

I'm interested in this also.

1. this is how i read it as well.

2. Is the NDA payoff shady?  At this point we all know it happened and consideration for her silence was given.  Not really shady unless finances from the campaign or from the trump foundation were used.  Then again, maybe it isn't against the law for the leader of the trump org to use company funds to pay off personal lawsuits.  Newswothy?  maybe.  Illegal?  who knows at this point.

3. I bet there is something in there, if not for trump directly then maybe for other clients he might have?

4. I think this privileged communications is the real play.  If they get something then they get something big.  I don't think a warrant here is indicative that something is DEFINITELY there.  I think that this is more of a fishing expedition that will uncover more.  For instance, if the payment to Daniels is questionable, then send it to the boys in NY.  They will get to comb through all of the client privileged info and can potentially send a recommendation back.  Mueller is going to get anything he wants in an investigation this large but maybe asking for all communication is off limits unless he has someone filter the info first.  If USDA comes back and says "we have some interesting bank records here that you should see" then Mueller will have a recommendation from a 3rd party and his own weight to get the OK from a judge to view the communications.  That covers his ass a ton.

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shnsajax

shnsajax 3605

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3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The timing of the payoff to Stormy Daniels screams "campaign", and the amount makes it a violation of campaign finance laws.  

Seems like something Trump would like to perjure himself on as well. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106630

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9 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I think this privileged communications is the real play.  If they get something then they get something big.  I don't think a warrant here is indicative that something is DEFINITELY there.  I think that this is more of a fishing expedition that will uncover more.  For instance, if the payment to Daniels is questionable, then send it to the boys in NY.  They will get to comb through all of the client privileged info and can potentially send a recommendation back.  Mueller is going to get anything he wants in an investigation this large but maybe asking for all communication is off limits unless he has someone filter the info first.  If USDA comes back and says "we have some interesting bank records here that you should see" then Mueller will have a recommendation from a 3rd party and his own weight to get the OK from a judge to view the communications.  That covers his ass a ton.

I'm not saying that's IMPOSSIBLE -- you and I don't know what went on in the warrant process.

But I WILL say that's HIGHLY unlikely.  A magistrate is not going to sign off on a "fishing expedition" into privileged information.  They take that shit very seriously.  Nobody will be allowed to "comb through all of the client privileged info." And if they are allowed to do so, mark it down -- I will raise holy hell, as will (I expect) the New York bar association and the ABA.

If a warrant is granted that opens the door to ANY privileged info, it is a very narrowly open door.  They don't get to just walk in and "look at all the shit you want."  In this case, a warrant is pretty close to an indication that something is "DEFINITELY there."  That's the bar that has to be cleared for getting access to privileged information -- it's a high bar, and it should be.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 90550

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21 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I was talking about what consumes Trump’s personal attention.  He’s not a diabolical genius.  He’s already paranoid AF about Mueller and this just took it to 11.  

He may go with a distraction but I don’t think it will be the Syria situation.

 

He needs to rally his supporters.  

It’s a lot easier to rally your supporters around images of babies and families that were gassed to death, than to rally your supporters around your personal fixer who paid off a porn star. 

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

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13 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

 

3. I bet there is something in there, if not for trump directly then maybe for other clients he might have?

 

Trump and the Trump Org are Cohen's only clients.

14 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

 

4. I think this privileged communications is the real play.  If they get something then they get something big.  I don't think a warrant here is indicative that something is DEFINITELY there.  I think that this is more of a fishing expedition that will uncover more.  For instance, if the payment to Daniels is questionable, then send it to the boys in NY.  They will get to comb through all of the client privileged info and can potentially send a recommendation back.  Mueller is going to get anything he wants in an investigation this large but maybe asking for all communication is off limits unless he has someone filter the info first.  If USDA comes back and says "we have some interesting bank records here that you should see" then Mueller will have a recommendation from a 3rd party and his own weight to get the OK from a judge to view the communications.  That covers his ass a ton.

It's highly unlikely this is a fishing expedition.  The standard for getting a search warrant into an attorney's files, never mind those of the president's attorney, is very high.  And the U.S. Attorney for the District would have to agree to the warrant meaning almost certainly a Trump appointee approved this warrant.

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