The Robert Mueller Investigation

[triplehorn 2664]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

The sources were largely Russians.

 

Are those largely Russian sources now pointing their fingers at us and laughing in ridicule, or were they dragged from office rooms after bags were placed over their heads or found having committed suicide with 2 gunshot wounds to the face ?

thats an important distinction, you know.

[Tuco 5093]

The last time I invited brisket someplace to be the voice of reason, I ended up crammed into the back seat of a minivan, sitting in a child seat (I’m 6’5”, btw), on my way to an after hours strip joint. 

Seems reasonable to me.

[TwiceHorn 32079]

1 hour ago, pyrohornIII said:

I have a lot of confidence in Mueller's intelligence and that leads me to believe he has a lot of contingency planning in place for possible or unforeseen incidents.  For example, what if he were to have a stroke or some sort of cardiac issue that incapacitates him, surely he has some very close assistants who could step in and carry the investigation forward. 

Another example is having someone higher up shut down the investigation.  I imagine he has enough to divulge which would compel a push for the reopening of the investigation.  He likes to keep his cards close to his vest, but if push came to shove he would divulge enough to keep the thing alive, even if it meant losing some of the surprise factor. 

Just for the record, Mueller can do all the succession planning he wants.  The continued existence of the Special Counsel is up to the Attorney General.  If Teh Donald were to "fire Mueller," what he would actually do is one of a couple of things.  One is fire Sessions and replace him with an AG that doesn't have to recuse himself AND is willing to terminate the investigation. Or, fire Rosenstein (not sure he can actually do this) and replace him with non-recuseable DAG that is willing to terminate the investigation (not sure he can do this unilaterally either).

I think both of these appointments/replacements require confirmation by the Senate.  Subject, I suppose, to midnight and recess appointments and whatnot.

We talk about Nixon firing Cox, or getting Bork to do it, as acting AG.  But back then, there was even less law/regulation concerning Special Counsels or prosecutors.  They were completely dependent on the Attorney General for existence.

Now, the Special Counsel can only be removed, and presumably the investigation terminated, for "cause," and in writing stating the cause.

Quote

§ 600.7 Conduct and accountability.

 

***

(d) The Special Counsel may be disciplined or removed from office only by the personal action of the Attorney General. The Attorney General may remove a Special Counsel for misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause, including violation of Departmental policies. The Attorney General shall inform the Special Counsel in writing of the specific reason for his or her removal

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Just for the record, Mueller can do all the succession planning he wants.  The continued existence of the Special Counsel is up to the Attorney General.  If Teh Donald were to "fire Mueller," what he would actually do is one of a couple of things.  One is fire Sessions and replace him with an AG that doesn't have to recuse himself AND is willing to terminate the investigation. Or, fire Rosenstein (not sure he can actually do this) and replace him with non-recuseable DAG that is willing to terminate the investigation (not sure he can do this unilaterally either).

I think both of these appointments/replacements require confirmation by the Senate.  Subject, I suppose, to midnight and recess appointments and whatnot.

We talk about Nixon firing Cox, or getting Bork to do it, as acting AG.  But back then, there was even less law/regulation concerning Special Counsels or prosecutors.  They were completely dependent on the Attorney General for existence.

Now, the Special Counsel can only be removed, and presumably the investigation terminated, for "cause," and in writing stating the cause.

 

Even if Trump shuts down the Mueller investigation, the FBI will continue to investigate crimes and refer prosecutions.  

There is nothing to gain for Trump in shutting down Mueller, except some points with his hardcore base.

Trump’s best approach is the one he’s been going with the entire time.  Discredit and degrade the investigation in the court of public opinion.  Unfortunately for Trump that’s not working too well.

And let’s not forget who else Trump is protecting when he tries to obstruct and discredit the investigation, the Russian Federation.

[Tuco 5093]

I think Mueller’s contingency plans have little to do with continued operation of the SC, and primarily deal with sharing evidence with multiple district offices (the Cohen referral), Congress, various state agencies (referrals for state law violations), and possibly even the media. This isn’t getting buried, particularly if the Dems win the House.

[Brisketexan 106899]

Seems reasonable to me.

In fairness, the minivan belonged to someone else. And while I got to ride up front, pescado’s companion in the back seat was a smoking hot bartender who wanted to go look at some tites. She even paid for the first coupla dances. He likes to leave that part out.

[Pescado_Rojo 19587]

 

In fairness, the minivan belonged to someone else. And while I got to ride up front, pescado’s companion in the back seat was a smoking hot bartender who wanted to go look at some tites. She even paid for the first coupla dances. He likes to leave that part out.

The ATM at the tit joint being broken may be the best gift the good lord has ever given me

[Anastasis 23720]

59 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

The ATM at the tit joint being broken may be the best gift the good lord has ever given me

Well at least you had your wits together enough to not deploy a credit card. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Anastasis

[Chad Fuck 18135]

Well at least you had your wits together enough to not deploy a credit card. 

You haven’t lived until you’ve had the credit card company call you at the titter and ask “You sure about this boss?”

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

You haven’t lived until you’ve had the credit card company call you at the titter and ask “You sure about this boss?”

I wish the credit card company had been that proactive when I was at my bachelor party. The lazy bums.

[plimon 190]

Mueller thread has taken an interesting twist.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[TwiceHorn 32079]

9 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Even if Trump shuts down the Mueller investigation, the FBI will continue to investigate crimes and refer prosecutions.  

There is nothing to gain for Trump in shutting down Mueller, except some points with his hardcore base.

Trump’s best approach is the one he’s been going with the entire time.  Discredit and degrade the investigation in the court of public opinion.  Unfortunately for Trump that’s not working too well.

And let’s not forget who else Trump is protecting when he tries to obstruct and discredit the investigation, the Russian Federation.

Yes this too.  Although I suppose teh Donald will try hard to curb the FBI, too. But it might be that a workaday FBI investigation/DOJ prosecution would draw so little attention that they fall off his radar. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4841872/Memorandum-in-Opposition.pdf

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[retread 2951]

 

[texas08 1599]

14 days for lying to investigators....LOLZ


6 months for being caught w half a joint...FUCK YEAH!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

6 hours ago, texas08 said:

 

14 days for lying to investigators....LOLZ

 

Most defendants with no prior history of criminal activity that plea guilty to what he did receive no jail time.  His sentence wasn’t unusually soft or harsh when compared to similar cases.

 

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[TwiceHorn 32079]

7 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most defendants with no prior history of criminal activity that plea guilty to what he did receive no jail time.  His sentence wasn’t unusually soft or harsh when compared to similar cases.

 

 

 

Martha Stewart would like a word about these "most" defendants.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Martha Stewart would like a word about these "most" defendants.

She didn’t plea guilty and she was charged and found guilty at trial of conspiracy, obstruction, and lying to investigators.

Totally different from Papadopoulos 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[TwiceHorn 32079]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

She didn’t plea guilty and she was charged and found guilty at trial of conspiracy, obstruction, and lying to investigators.

Totally different than Papadopoulos 

 

Not really.  Only slightly.  But you can't really make broad statements about "this kind of defendant."  In theory, that's what The Guidelines do, in reality it's anything but.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not really.  Only slightly.  But you can't really make broad statements about "this kind of defendant."  In theory, that's what The Guidelines do, in reality it's anything but.

Papadopoulos confessed to his crime and apologized to the court.

Martha Stewart did the opposite.

Are you telling me that doesn’t make a difference when it comes to sentencing?

I don’t doubt your expertise in this area and perhaps I could have used better language but I don’t see the parallel between the two cases.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Mack Tripper 708]

8 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most defendants with no prior history of criminal activity that plea guilty to what he did receive no jail time.  His sentence wasn’t unusually soft or harsh when compared to similar cases.

 

 

No, that's a huge downward departure from the sentencing guidelines that makes the sentence outside of guidelines bigly. The guidelines provide for 5 years for violating 18 USC 1001. Even after knocking off time for no criminal history and accepting responsibility, this is way outside the guidelines.

[yaqdum 182]

one thing this really does is illustrate the benefit of cooperation.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

13 minutes ago, Mack Tripper said:

No, that's a huge downward departure from the sentencing guidelines that makes the sentence outside of guidelines bigly. The guidelines provide for 5 years for violating 18 USC 1001. Even after knocking off time for no criminal history and accepting responsibility, this is way outside the guidelines.

Okay, well I must be either wording it wrong or getting bad information from legal experts and former federal prosecutors.

Most are saying Papdopoulos’s sentence was unremarkable.

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13629]

 

"Ding" is short for "ding dong", right?

[Mack Tripper 708]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Okay, well I must be either wording it wrong or getting bad information from legal experts and former federal prosecutors.

Most are saying Papdopoulos’s sentence was unremarkable.

 

Yes, I've seen that too and wasn't sure where that thought was coming from. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

8 minutes ago, Mack Tripper said:

Yes, I've seen that too and wasn't sure where that thought was coming from. 

Off the top of my head:

Barbara McQuaid

Seth Abramson 

Ken White

Matt Tait

^Matt Tait’s account

The government only asked for six months max and most predicted somewhere between 30 and 90 days.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Mack Tripper 708]

Yes, when the gov't only asks for 6 months, you can get a sentence like that, but it's very rare for the gov't to recommend a sentence that low unless there's an expectation for cooperation later on down the line. Georgie is far from  your typical defendant in federal court. 

And the guidelines aren't mandatory. I had a bank fraud case where the judge made it clear he thought the case was bullshit. He wouldn't grant me a new trial after the jury convicted but at sentencing gave my guy probation when the guidelines called for 8 years or so after departures. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Okay, that makes more sense.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[TwiceHorn 32079]

20 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Papadopoulos confessed to his crime and apologized to the court.

Martha Stewart did the opposite.

Are you telling me that doesn’t make a difference when it comes to sentencing?

I don’t doubt your expertise in this area and perhaps I could have used better language but I don’t see the parallel between the two cases.

It does, it's called the "trial penalty."  It is an unfortunate feature of the justice system that should not exist.

 

I'm being a little pedantic here because these sentences are the product of the Sentencing Guidelines, which, if you believed their proponents, would eliminate disparity in federal criminal sentencing.  It's a fucking farce that is in no small part responsible for incarceration nation.

 

White people don't usually get "Guidelines" sentences.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 32079]

17 hours ago, Mack Tripper said:

Yes, when the gov't only asks for 6 months, you can get a sentence like that, but it's very rare for the gov't to recommend a sentence that low unless there's an expectation for cooperation later on down the line. Georgie is far from  your typical defendant in federal court. 

And the guidelines aren't mandatory. I had a bank fraud case where the judge made it clear he thought the case was bullshit. He wouldn't grant me a new trial after the jury convicted but at sentencing gave my guy probation when the guidelines called for 8 years or so after departures. 

I'm kind of curious why the government even stuck with the six month "recommendation."  They were not reticent about claiming his cooperation was minimal and worthless.  I guess it was more or less built into the plea.

[Mack Tripper 708]

Yes it is rather odd. Reading between the lines, it may be that he has agreed to cooperate to do something in the future, despite his lack of cooperation to date. There’s definitely something going on because the government does not give out slaps on the wrist for lying to the FBI.

 

[yaqdum 182]

i hope people reading this shit are aware what a joke any comment regarding guidelines truly is.  this isn't a courthouse pea-knuckle game.  it is a war in progress and every move is calculated for what effect it has all up and down the line.

[BurntOrange&White 41864]

Yes it is rather odd. Reading between the lines, it may be that he has agreed to cooperate to do something in the future, despite his lack of cooperation to date. There’s definitely something going on because the government does not give out slaps on the wrist for lying to the FBI.
 

Probably a lot more charges the government is willing to throw down if he fails to cooperate or lies going forward?

[Mack Tripper 708]

double post

Edited September 11, 2018 by Mack Tripper

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3873]

12 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

pea-knuckle

not sure if srs.

[Mack Tripper 708]

13 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

i hope people reading this shit are aware what a joke any comment regarding guidelines truly is.  this isn't a courthouse pea-knuckle game.  it is a war in progress and every move is calculated for what effect it has all up and down the line.

We aren't a banana republic (yet). The special counsel's investigation doesn't exist in a vacuum . It operates within the rule of law, which includes the sentencing guidelines, the irregular application of which are interesting regarding where the investigation is headed. And *pinochle.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Papadopoulos and his wife have been nothing but douchebags throughout this mess.  They’re still pushing bullshit and alternative narratives on Twitter as of yesterday yesterday.  

It’s almost like he’s intentionally trying to destroy any credibility he might have.

Whatever happened to STFU about ongoing investigations?

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[triplehorn 2664]

9 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Papadopoulos and his wife have been nothing but douchebags throughout this mess.  They’re still pushing bullshit and alternative narratives on Twitter as of yesterday yesterday.  

It’s almost like he’s intentionally trying to destroy any credibility he might have.

Whatever happened to STFU about ongoing investigations?

I'm at a loss to explain it, but one passing thought reminds me of Felix Sater.  Sater has previously been a cooperating informant for the FBI, yet went on to have business ties with Trump and was personally involved in that proposed Ukrainian back channel 'peace plan' linked to lifting Russian sanctions - along with Michael Cohen and Andrii Artemenko - reported back in Feb '17.  Now, George Papadopolous is reportedly seeking employment in some affiliation with the GOP.  He certainly is acting like someone the GOP would bring aboard, though I'm not sure that'd be in their best long term interests. 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[yaqdum 182]

3 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

not sure if srs.

aisle say.

[Bama Chick 28596]

lol “pea-knuckle”

That may have replaced “pre-Madonna” as my favorite word mangle.

[Yuk 1621]

Nothing to see here...

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/trump-tower-meeting-suspicious-transactions-agalarov

I expect that if there's a push to declassify more FISA info and smear 30-year DOJ, russian organized crime expert Bruce Ohr, we'll be seeing much more of the above.

[HenryJames 67367]

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

3 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

I cant imagine entering a joint defense agreement with Donald Trump.  Since you know he will try to throw you under the bus the first chance he gets, you have a better chance at survival if you don't lie down in front of it for him.

 

[kevwun 16438]

Well when your choices are polonium tea or life in prison, working with Trump seems like a viable option.