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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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Mdhorn

Mdhorn 5948

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Obama vs Reagan in their prime would make for a great debate.

However, they would probably agree on almost everything.

Reagan was an actor soooo, he should be used to giving speeches since it was his near lifelong career. He didn't write any of it, however, unlike Obama who would write much of his and could talk about issues where ever and whenever. 

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Mdhorn

Mdhorn 5948

Posted
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2 hours ago, Captainant said:

So I don't know how it got lost in the churn, but it's been in the public knowledge since early October that trump has over 30 JDA's with Mueller probe targets.

I think we are going to see some more shit hit this particular fan. There's a reason Mueller has been treating this case like a mob case in how he's approached it.

because they're using a mob style defense approach?

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Yuk

Yuk 1532

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I've been thinking about this and all options seem pretty bad at this point for the Trump team.  It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle on much of this.  Whitaker cannot un-indict people.  So what is Trump's way forward here?

Pardons are probably the most effective strategy at this point.  And if he chooses to pursue this route, he'd want to do it before much makes it into the public record.  After that point, claim executive privilege on the information.  The downside to the use of pardons is that if subpoenaed, those pardoned cannot claim the 5th amendment in refusing to answer any questions about this.  And if they choose to lie, they commit another federal crime.  And the strategy of trying to hide the investigation information via executive privilege isn't going to work.  The courts and leaks will make sure most of the information finds the light of day.  And politically, it will be disastrous and expose the president to obstruction of justice and possibly other crimes related to this.  In regard to obstruction and pardons, you have to prove corrupt intent which seems like a slam dunk.  I wonder what the statute of limitations is for federal obstruction because he's not getting re-elected and he cannot pardon himself.

I suspect this has been gamed in every which way by Trump's attorneys and they do not feel its advantageous at this point, but I would not be surprised if Trump pardons Manafort before Mueller has a chance to put information into the public record that proves that Manafort (and by extension Trump) are lying about material aspects of the investigation.  So if this route is chosen, I expect to see one very soon.  But it's also obvious that they Trumps attorneys leaked the information about his answers (Trump Tower meeting).  So it's possible they are advising to not use pardons until after the process is completed.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18854

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1 minute ago, Yuk said:

I've been thinking about this and all options seem pretty bad at this point for the Trump team.  It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle on much of this.  Whitaker cannot un-indict people.  So what is Trump's way forward here?

Pardons are probably the most effective strategy at this point.  And if he chooses to pursue this route, he'd want to do it before much makes it into the public record.  After that point, claim executive privilege on the information.  The downside to the use of pardons is that if subpoenaed, those pardoned cannot claim the 5th amendment in refusing to answer any questions about this.  And if they choose to lie, they commit another federal crime.  And the strategy of trying to hide the investigation information via executive privilege isn't going to work.  The courts and leaks will make sure most of the information finds the light of day.  And politically, it will be disastrous and expose the president to obstruction of justice and possibly other crimes related to this.  In regard to obstruction and pardons, you have to prove corrupt intent which seems like a slam dunk.  I wonder what the statute of limitations is for federal obstruction because he's not getting re-elected and he cannot pardon himself.

I suspect this has been gamed in every which way by Trump's attorneys and they do not feel its advantageous at this point, but I would not be surprised if Trump pardons Manafort before Mueller has a chance to put information into the public record that proves that Manafort (and by extension Trump) are lying about material aspects of the investigation.  So if this route is chosen, I expect to see one very soon.  But it's also obvious that they Trumps attorneys leaked the information about his answers (Trump Tower meeting).  So it's possible they are advising to not use pardons until after the process is completed.

Donald Trump is going to regret ever firing James Comey.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32389

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4 minutes ago, retread said:

 

When Fox's legal analyst thinks a pardon won't mean shit, then, a pardon won't mean shit.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/fox-news-legal-analyst-stunned-at-how-mueller-made-it-impossible-for-trump-to-save-manafort/

 

Quote

The guilty plea is 175 pages long. In my career, I have never seen one like this. It was so carefully crafted by Bob Mueller and signed by Paul Manafort, that at the time he pleaded guilty to the charges he was indicted for — which was basically bank fraud, money laundering, and some form of commercial bribery of foreign officials in federal court. He also pleaded guilty to uncharged state crimes in New Jersey, in Virginia and in California.”

Quote

He added, “Why did they do that? To make it pardon proof so if President Trump, which he can do, does pardon him for the federal crimes the state prosecutors in those states already have his guilty plea.”

 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26444

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How do you think Reagan would feel about those "I'd rather be Russian than a Dem" shirts?  

Related question- can you imagine how Ronald Reagan would have destroyed Donald Trump in a staged debate?
He would have done what the other 16 Republicans in 2016 should have: laughed at him, to his face, in public, and laugh at his supporters too, and then clap them on the back and pat their heads and grin, and other Republicans would have cheerfully laughed right along with him and that would have been the end of Donald Trump.
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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32389

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:


Related question- can you imagine how Ronald Reagan would have destroyed Donald Trump in a staged debate?
He would have done what the other 16 Republicans in 2016 should have: laughed at him, to his face, in public, and laugh at his supporters too, and then clap them on the back and pat their heads and grin, and other Republicans would have cheerfully laughed right along with him and that would have been the end of Donald Trump.

Ronald Reagan would have never made it to the stage to begin with.

His brand of conservatism died long ago.   

Likewise, Donald Trump would have never made it to the stage in 1980.

Edited by Francisco 2.0
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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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14 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

Watching Mueller's elite team of lawyers and investigators versus Trump merry band of hacks and fuck ups is like watching the Harlem Globetrotters versus Washington Generals. Mueller and co are true Patriots doing a great service for our country.

A more accurate description would be watching the Dallas Cowboys play New Mexico State. If New Mexico State was coached by Donald Trump. 

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18219

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5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:


Related question- can you imagine how Ronald Reagan would have destroyed Donald Trump in a staged debate?
He would have done what the other 16 Republicans in 2016 should have: laughed at him, to his face, in public, and laugh at his supporters too, and then clap them on the back and pat their heads and grin, and other Republicans would have cheerfully laughed right along with him and that would have been the end of Donald Trump.

That’s fantasy.  Thr problem is the party, not the candidates.  The GOP electorate circa 2016 would have laughed along without Trump when, in reaction to your hypothetical, Trump called Reagan “Droolin’ Ronnie” and mocked him for being old and senile.  This is not the 1980s GOP anymore.  It’s the party of stupid and mean and witless.  

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

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I call him Rambo Ronnie.  Because the movies is all he knows.  Lil Rambo Ronnie.  Of course, many people say that I could be in the movies and that I would be better than Lil Rambo, but that's not something I want to do.  I might do it though, you never know.  People say I should.  I might, just because an Oscar would be nice to wave in Lil Rambo's face.  Look at him, standing there!  Ha!

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26444

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That’s fantasy.  Thr problem is the party, not the candidates.  The GOP electorate circa 2016 would have laughed along without Trump when, in reaction to your hypothetical, Trump called Reagan “Droolin’ Ronnie” and mocked him for being old and senile.  This is not the 1980s GOP anymore.  It’s the party of stupid and mean and witless.  

I disagree with this. Leadership matters. Groups of people are often what they are led to be. To the extent that the GOP is mean and witless it’s because the leaders of the GOP have put a great deal of effort into encouraging that with fiction and fear.

Reagan faced his own version of mean witlessness in the 70s and responded with optimism and infectious good will, and infected even the worst elements in the GOP with it. As much as I do not like the outcomes of many of his policy notions Reagan was a great inspirer of feeling and thus a powerful vector of positive civic energy. The problem with the GOP today is that they have lost all of that, and their value system has metastasized.
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Mack Tripper

Mack Tripper 696

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

who is heading up Trump's legal team now? Sekulow? Rudy?

Emmet Flood, who was representing Aubrey McClendon during the antitrust investigation leading to his indictment and driving into a bridge the following day when he was supposed to be arraigned, and Dick Cheney after he shot a hunting buddy. 

Edited by Mack Tripper
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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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1 hour ago, retread said:

 

He’s never discussed a pardon for Paul Manafort, President Trump said Wednesday — but it’s “not off the table.”

“It was never discussed, but I wouldn’t take it off the table. Why would I take it off the table?”

 

Because if you did take it off the table, this scene would unfold on the Trump dream wagon :

 

giphy.gif

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