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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11402

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

or

I'm free to lie to whoever I want, and acknowledge I lie, because I can schrodinger's cat my belief in that lie over any given time frame.

 

It's one step abstracted from Constanza's "remember, it isn't a lie if you believe it."

I've been assuming that's the administration's motto from day -365

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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28940

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

We really are at war with autocracy right now. I think we have seen the extent of democracy globally until we resolve this test. We are seeing new battle lines being drawn with Russia and China taking lead and it levied the proverbial nuclear bomb to the heart of it. I hope the power of democracy can eat the blow and repair, stronger than before. 

If you want to get really rich, autocracy offers you far more opportunities. Democracy will probably die long before the richest people measure their wealth in trillions. 

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47297

Posted
Posted

I wasn't old enough to vote in 1980.  I voted for Reagan in 1984.  Wanna know why?  'cause I was a young, dumb kid who was impressed with his recovery from an assassination attempt.  That was literally all it took to secure my vote.

10 years later and it had all become clear . . . he was a fraud . . . worse than that, though, was what WASN'T clear to everyone, which was the fact that he was a front for a political machine that was really just starting to gear up.  And now we're seeing the end game.  

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Junior Miller

Junior Miller 1502

Posted
Posted

This was an opinion piece of a former congressional aide from "The Hill". Would trump really be up a shit Creek if he pardons manafort or even say corsi?

 

Manafort's betrayal and double dealing against Robert Muellerand his special counsel team appears to be a desperate ploy designed to achieve a presidential pardon, which will fail, because Trump's attorneys will advise him in ways similar to what I wrote here.

I have long believed that the case for obstruction of justice involving efforts to impede the Mueller investigation is far stronger, based on publicly known evidence, than our public discussion would suggest.

Additionally, I would assert that while a president can lawfully pardon almost anyone, for almost any crime, a pardon could also be crucial evidence in support of an obstruction of justice case, and potentially an additional count in an obstruction of justice case.

If a pardon is offered to influence a witness in a criminal investigation, that pardon could indeed be a crime.  There has been evidence that earlier in the case, Trump's lawyers discussed a pardon with Manafort's lawyers. 

It has been reported as well that Trump's former White House counsel, Donald McGahn, has spent many hours cooperating with Mueller and his team. Could McGahn have provided evidence about these alleged pardon discussions?

It is now reported that Manafort was essentially double-dealing against Mueller and his investigators, with his lawyers allegedly reporting confidential information to Trump's lawyers about his discussions with Mueller while he was supposedly cooperating with Mueller.

If Trump does pardon Manafort, there is a high probability that these matters are ultimately litigated before and decided by the United States Supreme Court.

If Trump does pardon Manafort, the public firestorm of anger and outrage would be so extreme that impeachment consideration would probably be initiated even by a Republican House, and certainly by a Democratic House in January.

The smart move for Senate Republicans would be for them to immediately provide protections for Mueller against a Saturday Night Massacre and to publicly and privately warn Trump to not pardon Manafort or move against Mueller. 

However, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) appears to be making the same mistake after the midterm elections that House Republican leaders made before the midterms.

The most under-discussed aspect of Trump's involvement in the Russia investigation is the statute of limitations.  The statute of limitations for any potential crime that Trump is alleged to have committed would be a minimum of five years from the date that alleged crime was committed.

Let's assume hypothetically that Trump is not re-elected president in 2020 and leaves office in January 2021. In this case, under the statute of limitations, if Trump theoretically had committed any crime during the five previous years, he would not be protected by the statute of limitations.

Trump's lawyers all know this, and have undoubtedly advised him of this. Trump's lawyers also know that a federal pardon would not protect him from any theoretical state crimes and have undoubtedly advised him of this as well.

Additionally, if Manafort is pardoned, he would almost immediately be required by Mueller to testify before a grand jury, under penalty of perjury, and would have to testify truthfully, or he would be indicted for new crimes of perjury that would not be covered by the pardon. Trump's lawyers all know this, and have undoubtedly advised him of this as well.  

In other words, if Trump pardons Manafort, he protects Manafort only to the degree that Manafort tells the whole truth to the grand jury after the pardon.

A pardon would not protect Trump, unless Manafort's testimony to the grand jury clears him, but if this were the case, Manafort would simply tell this story as part of his cooperation agreement with Mueller.

If Manafort is assuming that Trump will pardon him, he is playing a dangerous game with a very high likelihood that Trump is warned by his lawyers to not pardon him, that he will still be indicted in state courts and that he will be forced to testify before the grand jury after the pardon. 

A Trump pardon of Manafort will be disaster for Trump, Manafort and congressional Republicans alike.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13742

Posted
Posted

Manafort would also have to deal with the potential that the pardon would be overturned at a later date.  No, normal pardons can’t be overturned, but the Constitution wasn’t written to allow presidents to commit crimes and then pardon everyone to protect himself.   If so, that level of pardon power puts the president above the law.

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Dertyberd

Dertyberd 394

Posted
Posted (edited)

The fun thing about this "I love Wikileaks!" part of the investigation is it's all being aired out for us to see.   Old groveling men getting busted lying to everyone while trying to get their story straight and failing miserably.  It's great entertainment.   

The real investigation continues with the two people who know everything, Cohen and the CFO.  Those two are walking Mueller down the paper trail that will ultimately be the foundation for busting open the big conspiracy.  The years of money laundering, international wire fraud, Russian oligarch/mafia ties, the Grand bargain.  It's all coming fast.

 

*Fuck! I guess Cohen stuff is now coming out.  I'm not that smart.  It's so fucking on.  

Edited by Dertyberd
Breaking news
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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted

It's been an eventful last 24hrs on the international Russian money laundering front:

Putin is waging a war on western democracies in the cyber realm without firing shot.  The way you get to Putin and his oligarchs without firing a shot?  Shut down their illicit cash flows.  The timing of all this happening is worth considering.

Beyond Putin.RU, there's a good chance the Deutsche Bank money laundering probe touches Trump directly.  

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32609

Posted
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https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/michael-cohen-expected-plead-guilty-lying-congress-collusion/story?id=59491450

Quote

Cohen is scheduled to appear in federal court in Manhattan on Thursday where he is expected to enter a guilty plea for misstatements to Congress in closed-door testimony last year about his contacts with Russians during the presidential campaign.

Once among the president’s most loyal and zealous defenders in business and politics, Cohen has now promised to “put family and country first” by cooperating with prosecutors, becoming perhaps the most pivotal public witness against his former boss.

 

Quote

Cohen’s earlier plea deal with federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York implicated President Trump in campaign finance felonies. Since then, Cohen has spent more than 70 hours in interviews with Mueller's team. The questioning has focused on contacts with Russians by Trump associates during the campaign, Trump’s business ties to Russia, obstruction of justice and talk of possible pardons, sources familiar with the discussions have told ABC News.

Quote

Sources familiar with the special counsel’s proposed agreement with Cohen told ABC News that the 52-year-old New Yorker will admit to making multiple misstatements to two congressional intelligence committees investigating alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to influence the 2016 presidential election. It was not immediately clear what Cohen told the congressional committees in the fall of 2017 that he will now say was false.

 

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 107009

Posted
Posted
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/michael-cohen-expected-plead-guilty-lying-congress-collusion/story?id=59491450
Cohen is scheduled to appear in federal court in Manhattan on Thursday where he is expected to enter a guilty plea for misstatements to Congress in closed-door testimony last year about his contacts with Russians during the presidential campaign.
Once among the president’s most loyal and zealous defenders in business and politics, Cohen has now promised to “put family and country first” by cooperating with prosecutors, becoming perhaps the most pivotal public witness against his former boss.
 
Cohen’s earlier plea deal with federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York implicated President Trump in campaign finance felonies. Since then, Cohen has spent more than 70 hours in interviews with Mueller's team. The questioning has focused on contacts with Russians by Trump associates during the campaign, Trump’s business ties to Russia, obstruction of justice and talk of possible pardons, sources familiar with the discussions have told ABC News.
Sources familiar with the special counsel’s proposed agreement with Cohen told ABC News that the 52-year-old New Yorker will admit to making multiple misstatements to two congressional intelligence committees investigating alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to influence the 2016 presidential election. It was not immediately clear what Cohen told the congressional committees in the fall of 2017 that he will now say was false.
 
 

The problem with surrounding yourself with weak yes-men who will bow down before you cuz you’re a big dog...is that sometimes, a bigger dog comes along.
Weak yes-men are bad company.
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horncyclist

horncyclist 1391

Posted
Posted
This additional info in Cohen's new plea agreement is now saying that he had extended convos w/ Trump and everyone in his orbit about Russia/emails. And there was a plan to go to Russia during 2016 for unspecified reasons, but still while he was the GOP nom for president
/We got em .gif???
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Goredho

Goredho 17663

Posted
Posted
23 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Because it’s not a trap. Before testifying you are warned to tell the truth and someone will warn you of the consequences for not doing so. It’s not that hard to tell the truth.

If I tell you don’t go in that swamp because there are a bunch of gators in there, and you wander into the swamp anyway and get eaten by a gator, did I set an “alligator trap” on you?   

Nope it means you got eaten by a gator because you’re a dumbass, like trumps good friend Paul. It’s why trumps lawyers won’t let trump testify, they know for an absolute fact he will lie and commit perjury. 

I’m late, but this was a good take.  There is a little problem with our shitstain-in-chief and those in his orbit avoiding lying under oath, however.  The truth won’t set them free.  It would put them in a cell.  For so many to run the purjury risk, the truth must be particularly awful.

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Captainant

Captainant 28596

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, horncyclist said:
4 minutes ago, Captainant said:
This additional info in Cohen's new plea agreement is now saying that he had extended convos w/ Trump and everyone in his orbit about Russia/emails. And there was a plan to go to Russia during 2016 for unspecified reasons, but still while he was the GOP nom for president

/We got em .gif???

Eh, this is the first time there's a court established criminal connection between trump and his business interests (which also includes russia). The plea also details a large number of meetings about russia and specifically names Trump. And all of this is happening AFTER trump submitted his answers in writing. I think we're seeing the jaws of the trap slam shut. 

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I wasn't old enough to vote in 1980.  I voted for Reagan in 1984.  Wanna know why?  'cause I was a young, dumb kid who was impressed with his recovery from an assassination attempt.  That was literally all it took to secure my vote.

10 years later and it had all become clear . . . he was a fraud . . . worse than that, though, was what WASN'T clear to everyone, which was the fact that he was a front for a political machine that was really just starting to gear up.  And now we're seeing the end game.  

one reason i am particularly angry about this is that i got suckered, too, in the first go-round.  wasn't long till i saw my error.

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horncyclist

horncyclist 1391

Posted
Posted
Eh, this is the first time there's a court established criminal connection between trump and his business interests (which also includes russia). The plea also details a large number of meetings about russia and specifically names Trump. And all of this is happening AFTER trump submitted his answers in writing. I think we're seeing the jaws of the trap slam shut. 
With each new piece of evidence it is getting harder and harder to fathom the possibility that Trump campaign did not actively conspire
with Russia to influence the presidential race. This is likely well past collusion. I also suspect Steele and the FBI will also be fully vindicated when this is all over.
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bolverk

bolverk 30366

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 
 
 

The problem with surrounding yourself with weak yes-men who will bow down before you cuz you’re a big dog...is that sometimes, a bigger dog comes along.
Weak yes-men are bad company.

Wasn't it Cohen's dad who got him to fess up by saying something along the lines of "I didn't survive the concentration camps for my son to do this"?

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horncyclist

horncyclist 1391

Posted
Posted
OH FUCK Cohen's statement of fact also includes that trump was pursuing a trump tower moscow project INTO 2017 WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT!!!!!! I mean, isn't that pretty goddamn significant, even to the most fox newsified person?

 

Wow. Emoluments anyone? What a corrupt piece of shit. I stand by my prediction that he's gone within 6 months. Prison within a few years most likely.

 

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Captainant

Captainant 28596

Posted
Posted (edited)

For those keeping score at home, here's what the Steele Dossier had to say about this:

(Page2)

Quote

The Kremlin’s cultivation operation on TRUMP also had comprised offering him various lucrative real estate development business deals in Russia, especially in relation to the ongoing 2018 World Cup soccer tournament, However, so far, for reasons unknown, TRUMP had not taken up any of these

(Page 8 )

Quote

TRUMP's previous efforts had included exploring real estate sector in St. Petersburg as well as Moscow but in the end TRUMP had had to settle for the use of extensive sexual services there from local prostitutes rather than business success

 

Edited by Captainant
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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 107009

Posted
Posted
Eh, this is the first time there's a court established criminal connection between trump and his business interests (which also includes russia). The plea also details a large number of meetings about russia and specifically names Trump. And all of this is happening AFTER trump submitted his answers in writing. I think we're seeing the jaws of the trap slam shut. 

Sigh.

You’re still clinging to hope that the party of a RICO-worthy treasonous conspiracy is going to wake up and do the right thing? Come on, man. The fox (GOP senate) is guarding the henhouse. There is never going to be justice served. Jut truth revealed, furrowed brows, and a republic fucked.

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ShaggyBevo RIP

ShaggyBevo RIP 3873

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

It's been an eventful last 24hrs on the international Russian money laundering front:

Putin is waging a war on western democracies in the cyber realm without firing shot.  The way you get to Putin and his oligarchs without firing a shot?  Shut down their illicit cash flows.  The timing of all this happening is worth considering.

Beyond Putin.RU, there's a good chance the Deutsche Bank money laundering probe touches Trump directly.  

This explains Russia stirring up shit with the Ukraine this week. 

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3874

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Sigh.
You’re still clinging to hope that the party of a RICO-worthy treasonous conspiracy is going to wake up and do the right thing? Come on, man. The fox (GOP senate) is guarding the henhouse). There is never going to be justice served. Jut truth revealed, furrowed brows, and a republic fucked.

Also, the Fox is guarding the henhouse.  

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
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Posted
4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh.

You’re still clinging to hope that the party of a RICO-worthy treasonous conspiracy is going to wake up and do the right thing? Come on, man. The fox (GOP senate) is guarding the henhouse. There is never going to be justice served. Jut truth revealed, furrowed brows, and a republic fucked.

I still have faith America will correct course eventually.  This is a process, it's going to take some time, and the first step is shinning a huge spotlight on the corruption. 

Despite their subversion, the midterms proved the country is moving in a different direction than the GOP . 

The "republic is over" rhetoric is getting old. 

 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh.

You’re still clinging to hope that the party of a RICO-worthy treasonous conspiracy is going to wake up and do the right thing? Come on, man. The fox (GOP senate) is guarding the henhouse. There is never going to be justice served. Jut truth revealed, furrowed brows, and a republic fucked.

That fox being hunted.

 

scaletowidth

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Captainant said:

OH FUCK Cohen's statement of fact also includes that trump was pursuing a trump tower moscow project INTO 2017 WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT!!!!!! I mean, isn't that pretty goddamn significant, even to the most fox newsified person?

 

Where are you seeing this?

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Asithappens

Asithappens 978

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

He is fucked. He is now saying there was nothing wrong with pursuing business in Russia while running for President. He lied. This the beginning of the end for Trump.

I think at this point, long before this point, actually, it's time to call the Trump base what they are: un-American assholes, traitors to the constitution and rule of law, ignorant of our history and liberalism.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 107009

Posted
Posted
I still have faith America will correct course eventually.  This is a process, it's going to take some time, and the first step is shinning a huge spotlight on the corruption. 
Despite their subversion, the midterms proved the country is moving in a different direction than the GOP . 
The "republic is over" rhetoric is getting old. 
 

You’d have the tiniest of points if what’s happening here was an isolated anomaly. It’s not. See the UK, Hungary, Poland, Austria, etc etc etc. Trumpism is just an American spin on a world-wide phenomenon that isn’t going away. Liberal democracies had their run. That’s coming to an end.
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Longhorn94

Longhorn94 2502

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


You’d have the tiniest of points if what’s happening here was an isolated anomaly. It’s not. See the UK, Hungary, Poland, Austria, etc etc etc. Trumpism is just an American spin on a world-wide phenomenon that isn’t going away. Liberal democracies had their run. That’s coming to an end.

Fuck that! We are just getting started. Get ready for WOKE Liberal Democracies Worldwide!

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