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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

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21 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Trump’s usefulness is at end. 

Not for Russia.

Wittingly or unwittingly, Trump will always be a useful agent of influence for the Kremlin.  He is the gift that will keep on giving whether it’s spreading baseless conspiracy theories, attacking our democratic institutions, dumbing down our population, or bullying our allies/trading partners on twitter.  He can do all these things even when he’s not President. 

The Kremlin will never fully turn on him because he’s the most valuable and destructive weapon they own. 

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Mdhorn

Mdhorn 5908

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

LOfuckingL

 

At this point, this is already dated horribly.  We're far past this but yeah, it was wrong then, and it's wrong now--mostly because it was recently ruled that collusion is a crime, along with obstruction, money laundering, racketeering, emoluments, and probably links to murder when all is said and done, you dumb sob.  

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Tom

Tom 2959

Posted
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2 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Of course it matters. There's another election coming up. You looking forward to six years of Trump? If you're looking for something for the Dem candidate to hold over Trump during the campaign, there isn't much there. I mean, look at this guy. LOOK AT HIM!!!!!!!!

Trump71.jpg

 

A lot of people are saying he's a younger, better looking Elvis Presley.  The best people....

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89362

Posted
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12 hours ago, Tuco said:

To me, the biggest story about the article is the tone of the Rep Senators. If it’s Don Jr, they’re in full bailout mode. You don’t recommend prosecution of the President’s son, with such enthusiasm, and then look to share a fundraiser with him someday. They crossed the Rubicon.

Some of those Republicans probably think they might not win re-election, no matter what.  Others, like Cornyn, are pretty safe regardless of what they say or hint at.  

But I agree, that’s a huge change in tone.  

Plus, Senators expect to be treated with respect, and in their eyes, straight-up lying to them is disrespectful.  Thinking you can pull a fast one over on them is not wise, no matter who you are. 

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

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When will we get some indication of what this investigation uncovers in terms of the criminal activities of Trump Org? With his lawyer and CFO telling all, its only a matter of time until it all unravels...but what does that look like?

Are those released in Muellers report or passed off to the appropriate authorities to prosecute or...?

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

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Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

When will we get some indication of what this investigation uncovers in terms of the criminal activities of Trump Org? With his lawyer and CFO telling all, its only a matter of time until it all unravels...but what does that look like?

Are those released in Muellers report or passed off to the appropriate authorities to prosecute or...?

Anything connected to Russia would probably fall in the Mueller jurisdiction.

Not Russia related crimes - SDNY and/or State of NY 

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23078

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not sure if this has been posted but this is truly an OH SHIT connection.  reddit poster links russians, trump, dooche bank, justice kennedy, justice kennedy's son, and kavanaugh.

https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/a1ng9b/trump_is_compromised_by_russia/earilkz/

Quote

[–]BlackeeGreen 6180 points 11 hours ago*x5x7 

A letter of intent to build the new Trump Tower was signed by the Trump Organization and Agalarov’s company.

Oh hey check out this photo of Rotem Rosen with Aras Agalarov, Donald Trump, and Alex Sapir at the Miss Universe Pageant in Moscow in 2013.

Rotem Rosen... that name rings a bell. Wait, is that the same Rotem Rosen that was photographed with Michael Cohen at the famous sidewalk cigar scene? Yep, that's him in the blue suit. Oh, and he's the son of a Russian oligarch who forms a direct connection between Putin and Trump? Weird.

Hey who's that in the back there wearing a grey suit? Because it sure looks like Jerry Rotonda, former Deutsche Bank exec in charge of the American wealth management division..

Though it is unclear whether Rotonda had any direct involvement in business deals with Trump, Deutsche Bank has backed Trump development projects. Deutsche Bank lent the Trump Organization more than $300 million for real estate transactions before Trump became president, ABC News has previously reported. The bank helped finance a number of Trump’s high-profile developments, including the renovation of the Old Post Office in Washington, the purchase of the Doral golf course in Florida and the construction of an office building in Chicago.

In December of 2017, ABC News reported that the special counsel Robert Mueller had sent a subpoena to Deutsche seeking records.

Is that the same Deutsche Bank that was fined $660 million for laundering Russian oligarch money? I guess so. Oh well, shit happens, right?

I mean, it's not like Deutsche Bank was raided again in the course of an investigation into money-laundering... right?Wait, that happened today?

Surely this is all one big coincidence.

edit - I see a lot of comments insinuating that this Deutsche-Bank-employees-facilitating-large-scale-money-laundering-for-Russian-oligarchs nonsense is somehow related to Justice Kennedy abruptly vacating his lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court.

Yeah, Justice Kennedy's son was the global head of the real-estate capital markets division of Deutsche Bank, which lent to Trump when no other banks would. And yeah, after his first address to Congress, Trump took a second to tell Justice Kennedy, in front of everybody:

“Say hello to your boy,” Mr. Trump said. “Special guy.”

But that's just Trump being Trump, the dude has the best memory.

There are any number of reasons that Justice Kennedy decided to replace himself with Kavanaugh. I mean, it's just a seat on the Supreme Court. Big whoop. The fact that he might've been forced to recuse himself from upcoming SCOTUS cases almost certainly had nothing to do with the decision.

 

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

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51 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Anything connected to Russia would probably fall in the Mueller jurisdiction.

Not Russia related crimes - SDNY and/or State of NY 

i guess what i'm asking is...let's assume Mueller uncovers all sorts of financial crimes, money laundering, etc. does that come out in the report or is that passed off to whatever jurisdiction? assuming the latter, are the allegations made public? given they are only allegations, what options does the house have to move towards impeachment?

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45513

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3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

i guess what i'm asking is...let's assume Mueller uncovers all sorts of financial crimes, money laundering, etc. does that come out in the report or is that passed off to whatever jurisdiction? assuming the latter, are the allegations made public? given they are only allegations, what options does the house have to move towards impeachment?

The House can impeach on a whim.  I don't think the jurisdiction in which any findings might be prosecuted has any bearing on anything.  I have zero doubt that, whatever might not be made public (say for security reasons), could and would be reviewed by the House Judiciary Committee, and they could then recommend impeachment proceedings (or not).  I don't believe the impeachment process must be completely transparent to the public.

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horn4life

horn4life 3753

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What I would want to ask all of our proud flag waving Donald Trump supporters is a pretty simple question.

Why do you think both the President and representatives of the Kremlin have the exact same inaccurate story regarding Trump's intention to build a Trump Tower Moscow?

When the President himself has now completely changed his story and admitted the deal was in the works, and there was nothing wrong or illegal about it.  Then why lie about it if you are Trump? Even more intesestingly why lie about it from the Russian side?

These are super simple questions that you will find nearly impossible for our proud flag waving Donald Trump supporters.  Instead you will hear a bunch of gobbledegook that makes no sense followed by... but I still support Trump!  I also want to know which lie our proud flag waving Trump supporters prefer to believe.  That Trump was lying when he signed his name to a letter of intent?  Or that Trump was lying about having any intent or desire to build a Trump Tower Moscow? 

I would also be curious about who the fuck would be so damn gullible as to believe that Donald J. Trump had no idea about the dangling of a $50 million penthouse to Putin?  I mean the guy is so cheap he set up a fake charity with his kids to save his own cash.  Exactly zero chance a guy who won't pay his contractors did not have any knowledge about a $50 million or even a $5 million penthouse tease to Putin, zero chance.  But not to worry!  Our proud flag waving Trump supporters will (as always) find the least likely, least plausible and embrace it as bedrock fact to explain how alternative reality works... it just won't make any sense to those of us living in current reality...

 

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Foosters

Foosters 17691

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Posted
4 minutes ago, horn4life said:

What I would want to ask all of our proud flag waving Donald Trump supporters is a pretty simple question.

Why do you think both the President and representatives of the Kremlin have the exact same inaccurate story regarding Trump's intention to build a Trump Tower Moscow?

When the President himself has now completely changed his story and admitted the deal was in the works, and there was nothing wrong or illegal about it.  Then why lie about it if you are Trump? Even more intesestingly why lie about it from the Russian side?

These are super simple question that you will find nearly impossible for our proud flag waving Donald Trump supporters.  Instead you will hear a bunch of gobbledegook that makes no sense followed by... but I still support Trump!  I also want to know which lie our proud flag waving Trump supporters prefer to believe.  That Trump was lying when he signed his name to a letter of intent?  Or that Trump was lying about having any intent or desire to build a Trump Tower Moscow? 

I would also be curious about who the fuck would be so damn gullible as to believe that Donald J. Trump had no idea about the dangling of a $50 million penthouse to Putin?  I mean the guy is so cheap he set up a fake charity with his kids to save his own cash.  Exactly zero chance a guy who won't pay his contractors did not have any knowledge about a $50 million or even a $5 million penthouse tease to Putin, zero chance.  But not to worry!  Our proud flag waving Trump supporters will (as always) find the least likely, least plausible and embrace it as bedrock fact to explain how alternative reality works... it just won't make any sense to those of us living in current reality...

 

TexasHammer gave us some insight yesterday. Basically, his position is, "so what, only people convicted are not named Donald Trump, but even if he was, all I care about is the economy, the deficit, immigration, and NK arms reduction." Of course, he's gonna be bummed when he finds out Donald really hasn't done anything on any of these fronts.

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

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7 minutes ago, Foosters said:

TexasHammer gave us some insight yesterday. Basically, his position is, "so what, only people convicted are not named Donald Trump, but even if he was, all I care about is the economy, the deficit, immigration, and NK arms reduction." Of course, he's gonna be bummed when he finds out Donald really hasn't done anything on any of these fronts.

the korean peninsula has been de-nuclearized, sir. disaster averted.

did you not get the tweet?

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23078

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2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

the korean peninsula has been de-nuclearized, sir. disaster averted.

did you not get the tweet?

fucking lulz.  the economy that trump has stalled with all the tariffs.  gm and other companies warned trump's stupid ass that tariffs are baddd, mmmkay, and that they would most likely lead to layoffs. that very thing happens at gm and then trump blames gm.  all his mentally lazy & challenged cult won't know anything other than gm, baddd mmmmkay.  now imagine if any other president not named trump directly got involved in a companies business, all the "conservatives" would be crying government intrusion!!!!!!!!!  but it's trump so hypocrisy is not only ok, but it's encouraged.

and deficit and fiscally responsibility which is one of the key tenets of conservatism is no fucking where to be seen with this admin.  but ironically, all the fiscal hawks have been surprisingly mute.  fucking bunch of hypocrites.

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Foosters

Foosters 17691

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Just now, crash_davis said:

 

and deficit and fiscally responsibility which is one of the key tenets of conservatism is no fucking where to be seen with this admin.  

No, deficit and fiscal responsibility is not one of the key tenets of conservatism.  I can tell you that being a vegetarian is a key tenent of my being, but if I eat meat everyday, it's not.

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Bat Guano

Bat Guano 359

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15 hours ago, triplehorn said:

VVV

What UK, Poland, Austria, (failed) France with Le Pen and (failed) Netherlands have in common is Putin's hand.  I think this is important to consider because it suggests this likely is a virtual Potemkin village of global autocracy.  I don't want to minimize what you're saying because this is as serious as a heart attack and we all need to get it together and fight this.  But I don't believe this trend has really matured and taken a lasting hold in the relevant nations.  The facets of human psyche that are being exploited have always been present, but the true crushing structure of lasting autocratic control is not in place where the sway is being felt - yet.

The Russian origin of the Potemkin reference is apt, and right now is the opportunity to splinter and shred the plywood and cardboard.  What we're witnessing is a dangerously effective social data driven cyber-psychological illusion perpetrated by a mafia state with vast off ledger/offshore accounts that are being used to finance and craft corruption of a relatively small number of players groomed for operating the highest levels political office in their countries while remaining beholden to their primary foreign funder and his truly evil intentions. 

Hold accountable and dismantle the psyops actors like Cambridge Analytica and the Russian Internet Research Agency, and rogue bands of hackers with safe havens in RUS and expose and whip in line (and punish if appropriate) complicit social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter, etc. AND begin to freeze and dismantle the trillion dollar invisible offshore economy used to launder and secretly fund these efforts and then, and only then, I believe we will see a re-balancing effect occur naturally.

 

 

I've been wondering about this alot. Maybe this is a bit far afield for this particular thread, but it's related.

I'm not too well versed in what's going on in Europe with the rise of right-wing nationalism and, as a friend of mine in Holland bluntly puts it, fascism. I know Russia is behind some of it, but it's looking like a mass movement; my question is, are the Russians really the driving force, or is it something that arose organically and they're simply helping it along? It seems like it's partly both - the urban/rural economic divide, nervousness about immigration and foreigners, racism - those are trends that the Russians didn't create, although they have clearly had a hand in amplifying them. I guess my question is, are the Russians really that good? From what I've seen here, they aren't; I think the speculation that some former (current?) Surly/Shaggy posters were Russkies was legit, and frankly they weren't that good at anything except stirring the pot. Maybe that's all they wanted to do. The Facebook and Twitter stuff seems like the same strategy. I found it ham-handed and dumb, but at the same time it's hard to say it wasn't effective. I thought they got lucky with Trump, but the fact is they put him in office and have to all appearances been controlling him ever since. That's a huge accomplishment, and even if luck was a factor it still exists.

After typing all this out I think I've answered my own question. Yeah, the Russian trolls are dumb and ham-handed, but at the same time the GRU guys that are directing them seem to be able to find the pressure points on fault lines in the countries they are targeting, and they've been at this for a long time and they're persistent. And of course the people they are targeting are dumb and gullible. So there is a good deal of credit/blame to assign to the Russkies for the rise of fascism we're seeing around the world. I just hate to see them win; it took a lot to put liberal democracies in all the places they exist, and if they go down they're probably never coming back.

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Brisketexan

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2 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

I've been wondering about this alot. Maybe this is a bit far afield for this particular thread, but it's related.

I'm not too well versed in what's going on in Europe with the rise of right-wing nationalism and, as a friend of mine in Holland bluntly puts it, fascism. I know Russia is behind some of it, but it's looking like a mass movement; my question is, are the Russians really the driving force, or is it something that arose organically and they're simply helping it along? It seems like it's partly both - the urban/rural economic divide, nervousness about immigration and foreigners, racism - those are trends that the Russians didn't create, although they have clearly had a hand in amplifying them. I guess my question is, are the Russians really that good? From what I've seen here, they aren't; I think the speculation that some former (current?) Surly/Shaggy posters were Russkies was legit, and frankly they weren't that good at anything except stirring the pot. Maybe that's all they wanted to do. The Facebook and Twitter stuff seems like the same strategy. I found it ham-handed and dumb, but at the same time it's hard to say it wasn't effective. I thought they got lucky with Trump, but the fact is they put him in office and have to all appearances been controlling him ever since. That's a huge accomplishment, and even if luck was a factor it still exists.

After typing all this out I think I've answered my own question. Yeah, the Russian trolls are dumb and ham-handed, but at the same time the GRU guys that are directing them seem to be able to find the pressure points on fault lines in the countries they are targeting, and they've been at this for a long time and they're persistent. And of course the people they are targeting are dumb and gullible. So there is a good deal of credit/blame to assign to the Russkies for the rise of fascism we're seeing around the world. I just hate to see them win; it took a lot to put liberal democracies in all the places they exist, and if they go down they're probably never coming back.

You're generally correct.  The Russians didn't create the pressure points -- weaknesses and failures in western systems did.  But they pushed those pressure points to create fractures.

What I've found interesting is that it's not just right-wing.  Populism is on the rise all over, and in certain environments, that manifests in a left-wing populism (of course we've seen Venezuela and Bolivia, but also see the election of AMLO in Mexico).  And there are common strains to both right and left wing populism.  Yes, it's certainly a tangent worthy of its own thread, but bottom line, the battle is between the order of liberal democracy vs. authoritarian populism.  And that conflict is one that, where it can, Russia has been happy to exploit it because weaker adversaries are to Russia's advantage.

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staboner

staboner 4955

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

I've been wondering about this alot. Maybe this is a bit far afield for this particular thread, but it's related.

I'm not too well versed in what's going on in Europe with the rise of right-wing nationalism and, as a friend of mine in Holland bluntly puts it, fascism. I know Russia is behind some of it, but it's looking like a mass movement; my question is, are the Russians really the driving force, or is it something that arose organically and they're simply helping it along? It seems like it's partly both - the urban/rural economic divide, nervousness about immigration and foreigners, racism - those are trends that the Russians didn't create, although they have clearly had a hand in amplifying them. I guess my question is, are the Russians really that good? From what I've seen here, they aren't; I think the speculation that some former (current?) Surly/Shaggy posters were Russkies was legit, and frankly they weren't that good at anything except stirring the pot. Maybe that's all they wanted to do. The Facebook and Twitter stuff seems like the same strategy. I found it ham-handed and dumb, but at the same time it's hard to say it wasn't effective. I thought they got lucky with Trump, but the fact is they put him in office and have to all appearances been controlling him ever since. That's a huge accomplishment, and even if luck was a factor it still exists.

After typing all this out I think I've answered my own question. Yeah, the Russian trolls are dumb and ham-handed, but at the same time the GRU guys that are directing them seem to be able to find the pressure points on fault lines in the countries they are targeting, and they've been at this for a long time and they're persistent. And of course the people they are targeting are dumb and gullible. So there is a good deal of credit/blame to assign to the Russkies for the rise of fascism we're seeing around the world. I just hate to see them win; it took a lot to put liberal democracies in all the places they exist, and if they go down they're probably never coming back.

some of both.

my two cents - Russia fell apart and had to rebuild itself in modern times. So their power structures are simply more resourceful than ours. They have to be, they couldn't lean on their old money, power and ways of thinking.

they are simply the most successful in waging warfare over the intertrons. my opinion, but i stand by it and believe it. 

We're still building faster jet planes and shit. And spending shitloads on em. 

Edited by staboner
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DDD Dad

DDD Dad 14167

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Posted
1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

You're generally correct.  The Russians didn't create the pressure points -- weaknesses and failures in western systems did.  But they pushed those pressure points to create fractures.

What I've found interesting is that it's not just right-wing.  Populism is on the rise all over, and in certain environments, that manifests in a left-wing populism (of course we've seen Venezuela and Bolivia, but also see the election of AMLO in Mexico).  And there are common strains to both right and left wing populism.  Yes, it's certainly a tangent worthy of its own thread, but bottom line, the battle is between the order of liberal democracy vs. authoritarian populism.  And that conflict is one that, where it can, Russia has been happy to exploit it because weaker adversaries are to Russia's advantage.

All of this is very scary to me.  Throw on top of that what I'm starting to think (yes I know tin foil hat and all) might be a real possibility that elections themselves may have been manipulated in many locations.

Looking at Brexit and the shit show that has followed it as just one example.

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bat Guano said:

I've been wondering about this alot. Maybe this is a bit far afield for this particular thread, but it's related.

I'm not too well versed in what's going on in Europe with the rise of right-wing nationalism and, as a friend of mine in Holland bluntly puts it, fascism. I know Russia is behind some of it, but it's looking like a mass movement; my question is, are the Russians really the driving force, or is it something that arose organically and they're simply helping it along? It seems like it's partly both - the urban/rural economic divide, nervousness about immigration and foreigners, racism - those are trends that the Russians didn't create, although they have clearly had a hand in amplifying them. I guess my question is, are the Russians really that good? From what I've seen here, they aren't; I think the speculation that some former (current?) Surly/Shaggy posters were Russkies was legit, and frankly they weren't that good at anything except stirring the pot. Maybe that's all they wanted to do. The Facebook and Twitter stuff seems like the same strategy. I found it ham-handed and dumb, but at the same time it's hard to say it wasn't effective. I thought they got lucky with Trump, but the fact is they put him in office and have to all appearances been controlling him ever since. That's a huge accomplishment, and even if luck was a factor it still exists.

After typing all this out I think I've answered my own question. Yeah, the Russian trolls are dumb and ham-handed, but at the same time the GRU guys that are directing them seem to be able to find the pressure points on fault lines in the countries they are targeting, and they've been at this for a long time and they're persistent. And of course the people they are targeting are dumb and gullible. So there is a good deal of credit/blame to assign to the Russkies for the rise of fascism we're seeing around the world. I just hate to see them win; it took a lot to put liberal democracies in all the places they exist, and if they go down they're probably never coming back.

My view on this. Russia has hit Europe with a couple of "weapons" that are interrelated. Now these aren't created by Russia, but leveraged by Russia to assist in their ultimate goal: Bring down the rest of the world to their level since they do not have the ability to move up to our level. 

  1. Middle-Eastern Refugees (Syria): There has been a flood of refugees moving up to Europe from the war torn areas of the Middle-East. I believe Russia helped prop up the war in Syria in a way to push more refugees into Europe. This creates a burden on the systems as a flood of people are entering and having to be accounted for. So now Europe is depleting resources at an increased level. 
  2. Stoke fear about Refugees: So just like we have seen here in the States, there have been fear mongering about what these (brown) people will do to these societies. Naturally nationalism will now be popular. This adds more chaos into society as "regular" folks are now dealing with 2 fronts on their society (far right and refugees).  

You have to view Russia as trolls who will use your weakness against you in every way as that is the only way to compete in the world, post-cold war. 

Edited by SmokeyTheBear
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