The Robert Mueller Investigation

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

22 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

 

 

I've been reading Harry Potter to my youngest the last few weeks. That is what I imagine Mad Eye Moody looks like. (Never saw the movies).

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

80,000 votes.

To dismiss the idea that vote manipulation might have occurred is asinine.  I can't prove that it did but I can say that nothing about this administration or Russia would surprise me at this point.

I'm 90% sure Russia manipulated votes. Main reason I believe this is the whole idea of the polls being so wrong. Missing the mark in ways no one has seen before. Something tells me the polls were more correct than the outcome. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

4 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

My view on this. Russia has hit Europe with a couple of "weapons" that are interrelated. Now these aren't created by Russia, but leveraged by Russia to assist in their ultimate goal: Bring down the rest of the world to their level since they do not have the ability to move up to our level. 

1. Middle-Eastern Refugees (Syria): There has been a flood of refugees moving up to Europe from the war torn areas of the Middle-East. I believe Russia helped prop up the war in Syria in a way to push more refugees into Europe. This creates a burden on the systems as a flood of people are entering and having to be accounted for. So now Europe is depleting resources at an increased level. 
2. Stoke fear about Refugees: So just like we have seen here in the States, there have been fear mongering about what these (brown) people will do to these societies. Naturally nationalism will now be popular. This adds more chaos into society as "regular" folks are now dealing with 2 fronts on their society (far right and refugees).  

You have to view Russia as trolls who will use your weakness against you in every way as that is the only way to compete in the world, post-cold war. 

There is also

3.  The disintegration of the USSR led to the rapid uptake of Eastern European nations by the EU. Those nations, like Russia, were consistently ethnonationalist throughout the Cold War while Western Europe had taken the opposite route due to guilt over Nazism. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

4 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

I'm 90% sure Russia manipulated votes. Main reason I believe this is the whole idea of the polls being so wrong. Missing the mark in ways no one has seen before. Something tells me the polls were more correct than the outcome. 

While they may have manipulated votes, the polls were wrong because people lied about their support of Trump. 

Even shaggy's right wing cabal denied supporting Trump, or even voting for him. Most of them have since come clean with a "but Hillary" or other justification, but on election day, you wouldn't think there was a Trump voter here. 

People hiding their support didn't end then either.  Tjhooker, only like a month ago, started out betraying his orange god, but in a matter of days, he showed his true colors and support. 

[BrickHorn 18176]

30 minutes ago, Chooky said:

That was probably his counter venture in the development of the Unimpressive Dick Toilet, which is basically just a shallow plate for a bowl.

“Unimpressive Dick Toilet” would make a good nickname for Trump’s GOP.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

While they may have manipulated votes, the polls were wrong because people lied about their support of Trump. 

Even shaggy's right wing cabal denied supporting Trump, or even voting for him. Most of them have since come clean with a "but Hillary" or other justification, but on election day, you wouldn't think there was a Trump voter here. 

People hiding their support didn't end then either.  Tjhooker, only like a month ago, started out betraying his orange god, but in a matter of days, he showed his true colors and support. 

Agreed to that being a factor as well, but not sure it could make up the delta in the poll results. Marry all this with the incredible ease of hacking a voting booth and Russia's resource allotment towards cyber warfare AND them bragging about doing something like this years ago.......it makes it hard for me to believe that Russia just did social manipulation via memes. 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

15 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

I've been reading Harry Potter to my youngest the last few weeks. That is what I imagine Mad Eye Moody looks like. (Never saw the movies).

You're not far off.

[bad_teammate 13125]

I cannot believe that Russia actually hacked voting machines. That is active-war level stuff. I really don't think Putin would be willing to expose that much risk for the prize of Trump as president.

[Chooky 13292]

All of this stuff with Russia and pornstars and muslim murderers must have Pence very frustrated and confused.  He's wondering why it had to get any more complicated than making it illegal for adults to do butt and mouth stuff to each other.

[Bat Guano 359]

4 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

While they may have manipulated votes, the polls were wrong because people lied about their support of Trump. 

Even shaggy's right wing cabal denied supporting Trump, or even voting for him. Most of them have since come clean with a "but Hillary" or other justification, but on election day, you wouldn't think there was a Trump voter here. 

People hiding their support didn't end then either.  Tjhooker, only like a month ago, started out betraying his orange god, but in a matter of days, he showed his true colors and support. 

Yeah. The Economist's take was that the polls systematically underweighted non-college educated whites, who came out in numbers greater than predicted, and that was why they were wrong. I think that's a pretty accurate summary; that's the voting bloc that made the difference in the rust belt.

But I can't figure out why this didn't make more of a splash.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/01/how-russia-helped-to-swing-the-election-for-trump

Kathleen Hall Jamieson says Russian interference was the deciding factor:

Quote

Indeed, when I met recently with Jamieson, in a book-lined conference room at the Annenberg Center, in Philadelphia, and asked her point-blank if she thought that Trump would be President without the aid of Russians, she didn’t equivocate. “No,” she said, her face unsmiling. Clearly cognizant of the gravity of her statement, she clarified, “If everything else is a constant? No, I do not.”

Her book on it came out a couple of months ago, and I haven't heard a damn thing about it in the media, except for this New Yorker writeup. She's smart, unbiased, and knows her stuff.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

10 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

While they may have manipulated votes, the polls were wrong because people lied about their support of Trump. 

Even shaggy's right wing cabal denied supporting Trump, or even voting for him. Most of them have since come clean with a "but Hillary" or other justification, but on election day, you wouldn't think there was a Trump voter here. 

People hiding their support didn't end then either.  Tjhooker, only like a month ago, started out betraying his orange god, but in a matter of days, he showed his true colors and support. 

I think we saw the same thing in Florida just now.  Gillum led in every poll.  People were ashamed to say they liked the racist guy.  

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I cannot believe that Russia actually hacked voting machines. That is active-war level stuff. I really don't think Putin would be willing to expose that much risk for the prize of Trump as president.

I dont know. Do you think we would take military action over that? Was Trump the main prize? Or was it the damage that the idea of it would cause?

We are at the edge of questioning our democracy wholesale. We have some fearing our government because of a "deep state". I'm a very rational and even-keeled guy but I'm starting to get paranoid that our society is going to unravel in a way that could look like the beginnings of civil war. I think this is all reversible but honestly, but what will Putin lose if they were found to be changing votes?

[Bat Guano 359]

2 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

I dont know. Do you think we would take military action over that? Was Trump the main prize? Or was it the damage that the idea of it would cause?

We are at the edge of questioning our democracy wholesale. We have some fearing our government because of a "deep state". I'm a very rational and even-keeled guy but I'm starting to get paranoid that our society is going to unravel in a way that could look like the beginnings of civil war. I think this is all reversible but honestly, but what will Putin lose if they were found to be changing votes?

As long as Trump won, nothing. If Hillary had won, as most thought she would, there would have been consequences.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

Probably why he almost had a heart attack.  Whitaker knew about the filing, so he needs to be better at his job as mole!!!!

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

1 minute ago, Bat Guano said:

As long as Trump won, nothing. If Hillary had won, as most thought she would, there would have been consequences.

[kevwun 15595]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Probably why he almost had a heart attack.  Whitaker knew about the filing, so he needs to be better at his job as mole!!!!

 

Mueller's self-imposed election hiatus convinced Trump that it was pretty much over.  His stupidity really is astounding.

[shnsajax 3589]

13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I cannot believe that Russia actually hacked voting machines. That is active-war level stuff. I really don't think Putin would be willing to expose that much risk for the prize of Trump as president.

I don't think Putin cares that much. It just creates more chaos which is what he wants. He might want it to take a little longer before being exposed, but overall he wouldn't care that much. 

[RomaVicta 29756]

4 hours ago, crash_davis said:

not sure if this has been posted but this is truly an OH SHIT connection.  reddit poster links russians, trump, dooche bank, justice kennedy, justice kennedy's son, and kavanaugh.

https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/a1ng9b/trump_is_compromised_by_russia/earilkz/

 

Thanks for posting that. It's damning and done with photographs. Another aspect that I find interesting about the cigar meeting is that it puts the participants in a random place that can't possibly be bugged. I wonder if Cohen used that tactic a lot.

[bad_teammate 13125]

Just now, SmokeyTheBear said:

I dont know. Do you think we would take military action over that?

It is absolutely on the table. Either that or extreme sanctions at the UN level.

Tampering with another nation's elections that directly is fighting words, 100%

Quote

We are at the edge of questioning our democracy wholesale.

And this is why you hit back very hard if someone else materially tampers with your elections. It's just not something you do to a powerful nation.  You meddle in other ways, but you do not actually tamper with the literal process.

Quote

I think this is all reversible but honestly, but what will Putin lose if they were found to be changing votes?

Lets say Russia is found to have tampered. A Democratic president and Congress comes in. House and Senate investigations show that Russia literally tampered with the election.

- Russian assets in US seized. All the shelters and real estate Russian billionaires have been stuffing away are now in the US treasury

- International sanctions on Russia. Seizures like those above not only in the US, but also in allied nations

- Frozen international cash havens/foreign banks

- Travel and trade bans (both with the US and allies)

You completely wreck the international lifestyle and wealth flow of the Russian oligarchs, and whose fault would it be? Putin's.

And for what? To embarrass the US? Why? To what end?

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It is absolutely on the table. Either that or extreme sanctions at the UN level.

Tampering with another nation's elections that directly is fighting words, 100%

And this is why you hit back very hard if someone else materially tampers with your elections. It's just not something you do to a powerful nation.  You meddle in other ways, but you do not actually tamper with the literal process.

Lets say Russia is found to have tampered. A Democratic president and Congress comes in. House and Senate investigations show that Russia literally tampered with the election.

- Russian assets in US seized. All the shelters and real estate Russian billionaires have been stuffing away are now in the US treasury

- International sanctions on Russia. Seizures like those above not only in the US, but also in allied nations

- Frozen international cash havens/foreign banks

- Travel and trade bans (both with the US and allies)

You completely wreck the international lifestyle and wealth flow of the Russian oligarchs, and whose fault would it be? Putin's.

And for what? To embarrass the US? Why? To what end?

I'm with you on all this in principle.....and I think it could all still happen once Trump is removed. But we are just starting to feel the damage of this Presidency. Who would have thought that the GOP would be this all-in on supporting Trump and slowing down the response to Russia? With the money in the NRA and PAC's, it seems they are all complicit. And besides that, we have no idea what kind of kompromat they have on any of our leaders. We have so much personal data floating out in the ether (internet) and Russia/China have the means to connect dots to blackmail just about anyone they want. Mean while, Russia can start to try and gobble up ex-Soviet countries while Trump destroys our alliances and weakens NATO. These are all wins for Putin, and unless we get our system cleansed of the Russia influence,  there is not much that will stop Putin from doing his thing. I believe long-term, Putin is going to lose, China will win, and the West will come out stronger. But we are a while away from that. /nobrisket

Edited November 30, 2018 by SmokeyTheBear

[jimmyjazz 45513]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And this is why you hit back very hard if someone else materially tampers with your elections. It's just not something you do to a powerful nation.  You meddle in other ways, but you do not actually tamper with the literal process.

LOL.  If Putin knew he could get Trump elected -- most likely with Trump's blessing if not outright assistance -- then he knew that there would be no repercussions.  

There are probably at least a dozen states in which the last thing "leadership" wants is any scrutiny of election processes.  Most of the South, Kansas, et al.  They'll take a little vote manipulation if it means their insidious and obvious voter suppression efforts get back-paged.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

LOL.  If Putin knew he could get Trump elected -- most likely with Trump's blessing if not outright assistance -- then he knew that there would be no repercussions.  

There are probably at least a dozen states in which the last thing "leadership" wants is any scrutiny of election processes.  Most of the South, Kansas, et al.  They'll take a little vote manipulation if it means their insidious and obvious voter suppression efforts get back-paged.

Yep. Can’t all have clean elections like Chicago, Philly, south Texas and Broward County. 

[bad_teammate 13125]

In the world of international power and finance, Russia's arms are too short to box with god.

The USA has an annual GDP north of $19 trillion.

The GDP of the Soviet Union near the end was around $2.5T.

Today, Russia is around $1.5T.

We literally have multiple individual states more economically powerful than Putin's Russia. (Texas is $1.6T)

1 minute ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Who would have thought that the GOP would be this all-in on supporting Trump and slowing down the response to Russia? With the money in the NRA and PAC's, it seems they are all complicit.

Of course they were all complicit in the same times of chicanery that is normal. influence-peddling, social movements, paid shills, etc...

Mental warfare is normal. That's expected. Funding opposition groups, blah blah

But literally tampering with the physical process of a Democratic election? That's war. That's blood.

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

LOL.  If Putin knew he could get Trump elected -- most likely with Trump's blessing if not outright assistance -- then he knew that there would be no repercussions.

Perhaps I have too much respect for Putin's intelligence, but even he knows that we have term limits.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

lol Johnny with his drive-by hot takes

 

classic

[staboner 4955]

just more deflection. same same

[HenryJames 65868]

 

[Chooky 13292]

The Trumpkin version of America operating from a position of strength is to have the president mope around a summit of world leaders scrunchy-faced and maudlin while the two genocidal thugs who just got done playing bongos across his chapped ass literally high five each other and give a Soul Train handshake twenty feet away from his dumbass orange face.  

[crash_davis 23078]

37 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Thanks for posting that. It's damning and done with photographs. Another aspect that I find interesting about the cigar meeting is that it puts the participants in a random place that can't possibly be bugged. I wonder if Cohen used that tactic a lot.

what's fucked for trump is that mueller knows all these details and them some.  basically he knows everything. 

trump is fucked.  whether he gets impeached or thrown in jail, whether the republicans finally grow a fucking pair and do right for the united states, history will be brutal to trump, his administration, and all the nutless sacks of shits who have protected him.

[triplehorn 2664]

19 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It is absolutely on the table. Either that or extreme sanctions at the UN level.

Tampering with another nation's elections that directly is fighting words, 100%

And this is why you hit back very hard if someone else materially tampers with your elections. It's just not something you do to a powerful nation.  You meddle in other ways, but you do not actually tamper with the literal process.

Lets say Russia is found to have tampered. A Democratic president and Congress comes in. House and Senate investigations show that Russia literally tampered with the election.

- Russian assets in US seized. All the shelters and real estate Russian billionaires have been stuffing away are now in the US treasury

- International sanctions on Russia. Seizures like those above not only in the US, but also in allied nations

- Frozen international cash havens/foreign banks

- Travel and trade bans (both with the US and allies)

You completely wreck the international lifestyle and wealth flow of the Russian oligarchs, and whose fault would it be? Putin's.

And for what? To embarrass the US? Why? To what end?

Tampering isn't limited to physical vote changing.  There's a general wish to simplify this to Putin acting alone to perpetrate fraud on the US elections.  Suborning US individuals and elected US individuals through corrupt practice is ALSO tampering.  It just happens to introduce conspiracy to defraud the US using those willing to commit acts tantamount to espionage and treason.

And I agree, we do not have to act with weapons as a countermeasure.  Mattis gave a presentation within the last year on the available tools to wage modern warfare which includes economic and defined realms where foreign acts of war occur which includes the cyber realm.  Expansion of Global Magnitsky Act, takedown of the entrenched international bank money laundering apparatus / international organized crime (beginning to really happen now), and deepened sanctions on Putin's Russia/oligarchs would be more decisive and constructive for the world than any military fight.

Clinton had already freaked Putin out 2011 by declaring Russian elections a sham in the face of continued or harsher sanctions being applied.  With years of adversarial relations with Obama ending with the 2016 elections, Putin had no choice but to launch a calculated long game Hail Mary with Trump and the larger attack on western democracies.  

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

49 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Thanks for posting that. It's damning and done with photographs. Another aspect that I find interesting about the cigar meeting is that it puts the participants in a random place that can't possibly be bugged. I wonder if Cohen used that tactic a lot.

Many mobsters have. 

[Chad Fuck 17503]

7 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Many mobsters have. 

[yaqdum 182]

8 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Many mobsters have. 

what i want to know is did cohen have his driver jump the median halfway across bridges.

[Pescado_Rojo 19327]

Just now, Skinny Tie said:

You're drinking again

Friday Power Hour! 

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

I've been reading Harry Potter to my youngest the last few weeks. That is what I imagine Mad Eye Moody looks like. (Never saw the movies).

Just checked the cyber:

 

I didn't realize he had a bionic eye. I'm sticking with the mental image of Guiliani.

[BrickHorn 18176]

42 minutes ago, Chooky said:

The Trumpkin version of America operating from a position of strength is to have the president mope around a summit of world leaders scrunchy-faced and maudlin while the two genocidal thugs who just got done playing bongos across his chapped ass literally high five each other and give a Soul Train handshake twenty feet away from his dumbass orange face.  

That clip is from Naked Gun, right?  Did they cut out the part where Frank Drebin shows up and saves America from its cartoonishly evil autocrat enemies via slapstick violence?

[Brisketexan 104465]

3 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

That clip is from Naked Gun, right?  Did they cut out the part where Frank Drebin shows up and saves America from its cartoonishly evil autocrat enemies via slapstick violence?

Frank is the hero we both need and deserve.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

3 hours ago, Bat Guano said:

I've been wondering about this alot. Maybe this is a bit far afield for this particular thread, but it's related.

I'm not too well versed in what's going on in Europe with the rise of right-wing nationalism and, as a friend of mine in Holland bluntly puts it, fascism. I know Russia is behind some of it, but it's looking like a mass movement; my question is, are the Russians really the driving force, or is it something that arose organically and they're simply helping it along? It seems like it's partly both - the urban/rural economic divide, nervousness about immigration and foreigners, racism - those are trends that the Russians didn't create, although they have clearly had a hand in amplifying them. I guess my question is, are the Russians really that good?

 

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You're generally correct.  The Russians didn't create the pressure points -- weaknesses and failures in western systems did.  But they pushed those pressure points to create fractures.

What I've found interesting is that it's not just right-wing.  Populism is on the rise all over, and in certain environments, that manifests in a left-wing populism (of course we've seen Venezuela and Bolivia, but also see the election of AMLO in Mexico).  And there are common strains to both right and left wing populism.  Yes, it's certainly a tangent worthy of its own thread, but bottom line, the battle is between the order of liberal democracy vs. authoritarian populism.  And that conflict is one that, where it can, Russia has been happy to exploit it because weaker adversaries are to Russia's advantage.

They are taking advantage of/manipulating groups that they couldn't in the past, on both the left and right - in the past, these were small groups that you might hear something about occasionally - perhaps the fire-bombing of lumber equipment in the NW, or an abortion clinic bombing, or an attack against an individual or group that was very localized.

These groups were usually geographically limited. 25 years ago,  Cletus in Bumfuck, Oklahoma, who hates abortion clinics is not going to communicate with  Bubbette in Dog Holler, Alabama who thinks the government is out to force school kids to be atheists.  Raynebowe in Oregon who hates captilism is not going to communicate with Windsong who hates American banks because daddy is a banker and pays her no attention.  Many of these people believed they were practically alone in their thinking.

Fast forward to the 2010s, and all of these people can frequently communicate with each other with a few simple clicks.   Their worldview has not only expanded, but they can instantly dip into echo chambers that didn't exist before to reinforce their beliefs (sorry usenet, AOL, and BBSes, you got nothing on twitter, Facebook, reddit, etc.).  They have internet friends who goad them into action, whether it's bitching about some policy, or actively engaging in some activity in the real world.

The Russians (and others) saw what many of us were blind to - these groups were ripe for the picking and manipulating.  They had the platforms, they had the numbers, they just needed somebody to guide them along.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Agreed to that being a factor as well, but not sure it could make up the delta in the poll results. Marry all this with the incredible ease of hacking a voting booth and Russia's resource allotment towards cyber warfare AND them bragging about doing something like this years ago.......it makes it hard for me to believe that Russia just did social manipulation via memes. 

I think it could.  Many people were really embarrassed about voting for Trump.  Hell, there were probably many spouses who lied to each other over 2016's election.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

 

Trump should be scared shitless if a very influential group of (R) Senators weren't willing to cover for him.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

I cannot believe that Russia actually hacked voting machines. That is active-war level stuff. I really don't think Putin would be willing to expose that much risk for the prize of Trump as president.

 

2 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

I dont know. Do you think we would take military action over that? Was Trump the main prize? Or was it the damage that the idea of it would cause?

We are at the edge of questioning our democracy wholesale. We have some fearing our government because of a "deep state". I'm a very rational and even-keeled guy but I'm starting to get paranoid that our society is going to unravel in a way that could look like the beginnings of civil war. I think this is all reversible but honestly, but what will Putin lose if they were found to be changing votes?

I don't think they actively hacked voting machines to change votes.  Do I think they did some hacking to keep track of results, particularly in the primaries?  That's a very real possibility.  But I don't see them changing votes.  If the US takes vote-manipulation as an attack, and NATO happily follows suit, we don't have to fire a shot to destroy Russia and end Putin's reign.  

We can destroy them economically, and there is nothing Russia can do.  They can't try to force anything militarily - they can't say "we will invade unless you buy our petroleum products or resources."   And it's very clear that their conventional forces simply don't have the resources/logistics chain to match NATO in this day and age anyways.  If they fuck around with Ukraine proper too much, you'll truly see the limits of their military capacity.

And the problem with vote-hacking, is that if you're discovered, the people running the machines can buy different/better machines and/or put in place practices that make it much harder.

No, the cheaper/better/safer thing to do is buy votes by way of false advertising (fake news on Facebook, bots on twitter, etc.), and to funnel money to campaigns, or to groups/PACs/whatever that will campaign for the candidates you want.

America was ripe for the picking, and Facebook, twitter, etc. were the tools to do it.

[Chooky 13292]

Someday Trump and his people may look back on this and have a huge laugh.  Then they'll get solitary for making noise after lights out.

[bad_teammate 13125]

8 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

If the US takes vote-manipulation as an attack, and NATO happily follows suit, we don't have to fire a shot to destroy Russia and end Putin's reign. 

"My wife cannot travel to Europe to buy luxury items and I have lost all of my international contracts. There is a political rival out there ready to denounce Putin's interference and get us back in the good graces of the West. Prepare Vladimir's polonium tea."

[Brisketexan 104465]

16 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"My wife cannot travel to Europe to buy luxury items and I have lost all of my international contracts. There is a political rival out there ready to denounce Putin's interference and get us back in the good graces of the West. Prepare Vladimir's polonium tea."

And that is EXACTLY the game we should play.  Use your enemy's strength against him

Our strength is our democratic institutions - Putin exploited the vulnerabilities of those systems, and used them against us.

Putin's strength is the backing of wealthy oligarchs - we should exploit the vulnerabilities of those people, and use them against Putin.

We've been doing a half-assed version of that with weak sanctions.  Make it much stronger, and work to help create a more palatable alternative.  Because to be clear, we don't give a shit of a handful of Russians are robbing their people and nation blind.  We just want them to keep their bullshit on their own turf.  So, give them a path to keep doing what they're doing without us making their lives painful.  Vlad's tragic skiing accident over a 10,000 foot cliff - at the end of which, he fell on two bullets that hit the back of his head -- will be mourned appropriately.

[Goredho 17302]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

It is absolutely on the table. Either that or extreme sanctions at the UN level.

Tampering with another nation's elections that directly is fighting words, 100%

And this is why you hit back very hard if someone else materially tampers with your elections. It's just not something you do to a powerful nation.  You meddle in other ways, but you do not actually tamper with the literal process.

Lets say Russia is found to have tampered. A Democratic president and Congress comes in. House and Senate investigations show that Russia literally tampered with the election.

- Russian assets in US seized. All the shelters and real estate Russian billionaires have been stuffing away are now in the US treasury

- International sanctions on Russia. Seizures like those above not only in the US, but also in allied nations

- Frozen international cash havens/foreign banks

- Travel and trade bans (both with the US and allies)

You completely wreck the international lifestyle and wealth flow of the Russian oligarchs, and whose fault would it be? Putin's.

And for what? To embarrass the US? Why? To what end?

 

If Russia had Trump under their heavy sway and had the means to get him elected, do you really think they hold back?  I don't.  If you can get a friendly asset in control of your most hated ideological adversary that ushered in your downfall as a superpower, you do it.  100% of the time.  Get Trump elected as commander-in-chief and America won't do shit in response.

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

2 hours ago, Chooky said:

The Trumpkin version of America operating from a position of strength is to have the president mope around a summit of world leaders scrunchy-faced and maudlin while the two genocidal thugs who just got done playing bongos across his chapped ass literally high five each other and give a Soul Train handshake twenty feet away from his dumbass orange face.  

 

[Ted Lange 15991]

We getting a Friday evening news dump or did the script writers decide Thursdays activity was enough to hold us over until next week?

[Tuco 5076]

 

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

In the world of international power and finance, Russia's arms are too short to box with god.

...

Of course they were all complicit in the same times of chicanery that is normal. influence-peddling, social movements, paid shills, etc...

Mental warfare is normal. That's expected. Funding opposition groups, blah blah

But literally tampering with the physical process of a Democratic election? That's war. That's blood.

This is a really good post.  Folks are blowing Putin up to be this evil mastermind who has brought the US to its knees. Russia, outside of the nukes, is not an equal peer in power.  It has engaged in a successful influence campaign by following many of the same tactics our government does on a regular basis to foreign powers - and what US lobbyists does legally in America.  The US government also hacks foreign governments and citizens.  Releasing private emails on one of our parties may have kicked it up a notch, but keep in mind we developed viruses which basically destroyed Iran's uranium enriching equipment.  The Russians got nothing on us. 

But there is no both-sides justification in warfare. While I don't hold a personal grudge against Putin over this, I certainly recognize is an adversary.  Any American citizen who knowingly aided him should die in prison.  I don't care if it was for power or profit.  I don't care if they are new to the political process.  If you help our enemy in an attack on America, you're a fucking traitor.  

 

6 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Some of those Republicans probably think they might not win re-election, no matter what.  Others, like Cornyn, are pretty safe regardless of what they say or hint at.  

But I agree, that’s a huge change in tone.  

Plus, Senators expect to be treated with respect, and in their eyes, straight-up lying to them is disrespectful.  Thinking you can pull a fast one over on them is not wise, no matter who you are. 

All good points.  Also, they may have temporarily found their balls after the Khashoggi briefing.  Also, right now is when they have the most time until the next election. But, whatever the reason, it's a split that is not easily repaired and I don't expect them to try.  I've been disappointed before. 

42 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Fast forward to the 2010s, and all of these people can frequently communicate with each other with a few simple clicks.   Their worldview has not only expanded, but they can instantly dip into echo chambers that didn't exist before to reinforce their beliefs (sorry usenet, AOL, and BBSes, you got nothing on twitter, Facebook, reddit, etc.).  They have internet friends who goad them into action, whether it's bitching about some policy, or actively engaging in some activity in the real world.

Add to that, the ability to generate credible looking sources that are built on bullshit. If you knew nothing about science, you could look at a flat-earther website and a Stanford University website, and not really tell the difference in credibility.  These random nutballs are able to source bullshit on climate change, evolution, Clinton's murders, or the illegitimacy of the Federal government's authority over the National Parks...and it seems well researched and logical.  We've all seen the cut-and-paste arguments over highly technical subject matters, which are difficult to disprove without a) "an appeal to authority" of a legitimate source, or b) a shit ton of research.  And neither of those make a dent, because they don't accept the authority and they can't understand the research.  

[LongestHorn 759]

4 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's starting to feel like Rome under Caligula.

Melania has been dreaming of a Kubrickian Christmas.  

“Everybody has a different taste,” Melania Trump said this week.

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

We getting a Friday evening news dump or did the script writers decide Thursdays activity was enough to hold us over until next week?

The creepiest days are when you don’t hear from the horse at all.

[HenryJames 65868]

7 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

Melania has been dreaming of a Kubrickian Christmas.  

“Everybody has a different taste,” Melania Trump said this week.

 

Holy shit if Michelle Obama did that.