The Robert Mueller Investigation

[Austinvines 309]

Melania has been dreaming of a Kubrickian Christmas.  

“Everybody has a different taste,” Melania Trump said this week.

 

[4th&Five 41457]

35 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

Holy shit if Michelle Obama did that.

bruh, we couldn't even say merry christmas back then.

[Anastasis 23375]

58 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Our strength is our democratic institutions

 

Our strengths are economic and military hegemony built precisely by undermining democratic principles throughout the world when it fits our agenda. Our own democracy is a smoke screen. Our government is captured by corporate and special interests. In geopolitics, we all run the plays that create for us the greatest advantage.  

[Brisketexan 104465]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Our strengths are economic and military hegemony built precisely by undermining democratic principles throughout the world when it fits our agenda. Our own democracy is a smoke screen. Our government is captured by corporate and special interests. In geopolitics, we all run the plays that create for us the greatest advantage.  

Is it?  Because in a lot of respects, many of those corporate interests are none too pleased with the direction the Putin puppet has taken things.  Our government is a product of the voters -- who are manipulated by the best manipulators out there.  Sometimes, in some locations/races, that is a decent person aiming to serve the public.  More often, it's corporate and special interests.  And lately, it's a foreign power aimed at weakening us.

The illusion of democratic institutions -- backed up by enough examples of those institutions actually functioning as democratic institutions (think local government entities, most court cases, etc. -- yeah, there are shitty ones, but in the vast majority of cases, the system functions as designed) - is our strength.  I'll accept that correction.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Brisketexan

[Anastasis 23375]

The "illusion of democratic institutions" is a strength? OK, I'll buy that. 

Geopolitically, our primary strengths are a consumerism based economy, the petrodollar, and a military that can put anybody in the world in their place with the quickness. We are only held in check militarily in rare situations outside western Europe by nuclear deterrence. Which only encourages nuclear proliferation among those that we have identified as our enemies.

[Brisketexan 104465]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

The "illusion of democratic institutions" is a strength? OK, I'll buy that. 

Geopolitically, our primary strengths are a consumerism based economy, the petrodollar, and a military that can put anybody in the world in their place with the quickness. We are only held in check militarily in rare situations outside western Europe by nuclear deterrence. Which only encourages nuclear proliferation among those that we have identified as our enemies.

With the caveat that it has to be an illusion with enough reality behind it to keep the audience bought-in.

The pulling back of the curtain that's taken place in the past two years could end up being the upside to come out of all this.  I mean, of course, if we have anything worth a shit left worth fighting for when all is said and done.  Chemo ain't much good if it kills the patient before it kills the cancer.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

I love anti-American Anastasis. 

America is horrible!! We should be more like...? Well, he never gets around to that part.

Just bitch bitch bitch about all our dark spots and how awful a county we are.

Never how to make anything better.  Just burn it all down. He might as well be a closet Trumpkin. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[ohchaucer 1443]

Preach, brother Tuco, preach!

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I love anti-American Anastasis. 

America is horrible!! We should be more like...? Well, he never gets around to that part.

 Just bitch bitch bitch about all our dark spots and how awful a county we are.

Never how to make anything better.  Just burn it all down. He might as well be a closet Trumpkin. 

How to makes things better:

We should be honest with ourselves. We have our interests. We look out for those interests. So does every other country. Sometimes its a messy thing. Sometimes it involves drone striking weddings and dropping cluster munitions on grade schools. Sometimes it involves building schools and digging wells. Others it involves not giving a fuck about genocide playing out when its an oilless African country. From time to time it involves toppling authoritarians if they don't bend the knee. More often it involves propping up authoritarians if they are willing to play along. All I would like is for us to be honest with ourselves. This is not a phenomenon novel to recent history. We don't give a shit about democracy or democratic values around the world, at least once they are opposed to our geopolitical interests. Our primary interest is economic and military hegemony. You think that a little bit of truth and honesty with ourselves and our role in the world is Anti-American? Well shit, that might be closer to reality than most of us can admit.  As brisket said above, all you need is enough of an illusion to keep the idiots bought it.

[Anastasis 23375]

dp

Edited December 1, 2018 by Anastasis

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Or maybe we should be for democracy and give a shit about it.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

 

Our strengths are economic and military hegemony built precisely by undermining democratic principles throughout the world when it fits our agenda. Our own democracy is a smoke screen. Our government is captured by corporate and special interests. In geopolitics, we all run the plays that create for us the greatest advantage.  

It's good to be da king.........

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

1 hour ago, 4th&Five said:

bruh, we couldn't even say merry christmas back then.

Or encourage our children to eat their vegetables. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Stilicho 1397]

36 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Or maybe we should be for democracy and give a shit about it.

I like you Hugo, but history is in complete disagreement with you here.

American foreign policy since the end of WWII (and realistically, probably dating back to the 1880s) has been built around various combinations of the following:

- The spread of American military and economic hegemony from regional to global.

- The idea of containment in regards to Communism and actively subverting existing world governments to be used as props against the domino theory.

- Securing open access to petroleum and raw materials from less powerful countries to fuel our own consumerism.                                                                                   

Being in the "business of democracy" is a high-handed slogan to put on posters and pamphlets for the 4th of July Parade, but reality is much a starker picture.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Stilicho
Formatting is fake news.

[Junior Miller 1502]

5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

what's fucked for trump is that mueller knows all these details and them some.  basically he knows everything. 

trump is fucked.  whether he gets impeached or thrown in jail, whether the republicans finally grow a fucking pair and do right for the united states, history will be brutal to trump, his administration, and all the nutless sacks of shits who have protected him.

World history yes. Inside the US it'll be whitwashed with 'Murica propaganda just like ever piece of bullshit taught in schools now. 

[Celery Man 20874]

How is history in disagreement with “should”, based on what you said there? We made a ton of mistakes while basking in the glow of our new hegemony.

[jimmyjazz 45513]

58 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

How to makes things better:

We should be honest with ourselves. We have our interests. We look out for those interests. So does every other country. Sometimes its a messy thing. Sometimes it involves drone striking weddings and dropping cluster munitions on grade schools. Sometimes it involves building schools and digging wells. Others it involves not giving a fuck about genocide playing out when its an oilless African country. From time to time it involves toppling authoritarians if they don't bend the knee. More often it involves propping up authoritarians if they are willing to play along. All I would like is for us to be honest with ourselves. This is not a phenomenon novel to recent history. We don't give a shit about democracy or democratic values around the world, at least once they are opposed to our geopolitical interests. Our primary interest is economic and military hegemony. You think that a little bit of truth and honesty with ourselves and our role in the world is Anti-American? Well shit, that might be closer to reality than most of us can admit.  As brisket said above, all you need is enough of an illusion to keep the idiots bought it.

So basically you think it will make things better if the residents of Mayberry USA get more savvy and realize what's actually going on as opposed to what they think is going on when they wave their flags and drive their Chevrolets.  OK, I guess.  You're not advocating for a shred of change, you just don't like the fairy tale.

[Stilicho 1397]

12 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

How is history in disagreement with “should”, based on what you said there? We made a ton of mistakes while basking in the glow of our new hegemony.

History shows that we've never actually been "for democracy" in regards to our foreign policy actions throughout the last century plus.  West Germany, Korea, Israel, Vietnam, Africa, Central America, and Kuwait saw American military and/or economic action with an eye towards either protecting our newfound status as the world's chief superpower, staunching the spread of Communism and economic influence from the Soviet Union and China, or securing our own access to another region's raw resources.

We can claim that we took action in all of those cases in order to "protect" or "spread" democracy, but those claim are, for the most part, empty. 

I'm all for championing democracy on the international stage.  However, the reality that democratically elected governments may not turn a favorable eye towards the United States has kept us firmly in the business of rattling our sabers rather than truly trying to clear the way for democracy.  You can look to any number of governments we've had a hand in overthrowing as proof.

[bad_teammate 13125]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

The "illusion of democratic institutions" is a strength? OK, I'll buy that. 

Geopolitically, our primary strengths are a consumerism based economy, the petrodollar, and a military that can put anybody in the world in their place with the quickness. We are only held in check militarily in rare situations outside western Europe by nuclear deterrence. Which only encourages nuclear proliferation among those that we have identified as our enemies.

a post this good, gotta hit 'em with the default dance

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

dp

There’s a your mom joke here, just FYI

[Celery Man 20874]

19 minutes ago, Stilicho said:

History shows that we've never actually been "for democracy" in regards to our foreign policy actions throughout the last century plus.  West Germany, Korea, Israel, Vietnam, Africa, Central America, and Kuwait saw American military and/or economic action with an eye towards either protecting our newfound status as the world's chief superpower, staunching the spread of Communism and economic influence from the Soviet Union and China, or securing our own access to another region's raw resources.

We can claim that we took action in all of those cases in order to "protect" or "spread" democracy, but those claim are, for the most part, empty. 

I'm all for championing democracy on the international stage.  However, the reality that democratically elected governments may not turn a favorable eye towards the United States has kept us firmly in the business of rattling our sabers rather than truly trying to clear the way for democracy.  You can look to any number of governments we've had a hand in overthrowing as proof.

right, but maybe we should

[Stilicho 1397]

Just now, Celery Man said:

right, but maybe we should

Oh I absolutely agree that we should.

I assumed that Hugo was implying that we have in the past and that our current Trumpian dystopia had thrown us off of that path. 

If that’s not what he was implying. Well... then fuck me I guess. 

[Celery Man 20874]

ah - yeah that's a reasonable disconnect and is what I'm needling about.  i understand that international diplomacy is difficult and idealism is rarely compatible with reality, but some of the shit we've done in the past 80 years is atrocious

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, Stilicho said:

I like you Hugo, but history is in complete disagreement with you here.

American foreign policy since the end of WWII (and realistically, probably dating back to the 1880s) has been built around various combinations of the following:

- The spread of American military and economic hegemony from regional to global.

- The idea of containment in regards to Communism and actively subverting existing world governments to be used as props against the domino theory.

- Securing open access to petroleum and raw materials from less powerful countries to fuel our own consumerism.                                                                                   

Being in the "business of democracy" is a high-handed slogan to put on posters and pamphlets for the 4th of July Parade, but reality is much a starker picture.

Yeah, we built the biggest superpower the world has ever seen and a prosperous global economic order.

But we did all that for a reason.  We did it because our crazy ideas of the rule of law and free societies are worth fighting for.  We believed free societies are less likely to fight each other in wars.  

Yeah, we made contradictory alliances and behaved in ways antithetical to our values for strategic and economic interests.  

Just because we don’t always live up to the values and ideas we project doesn’t mean we should stop projecting them. 

Because the alternative is worse.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[JimmyJames 12271]

18 minutes ago, Stilicho said:

History shows that we've never actually been "for democracy" in regards to our foreign policy actions throughout the last century plus.  West Germany, Korea, Israel, Vietnam, Africa, Central America, and Kuwait saw American military and/or economic action with an eye towards either protecting our newfound status as the world's chief superpower, staunching the spread of Communism and economic influence from the Soviet Union and China, or securing our own access to another region's raw resources.

We can claim that we took action in all of those cases in order to "protect" or "spread" democracy, but those claim are, for the most part, empty. 

I'm all for championing democracy on the international stage.  However, the reality that democratically elected governments may not turn a favorable eye towards the United States has kept us firmly in the business of rattling our sabers rather than truly trying to clear the way for democracy.  You can look to any number of governments we've had a hand in overthrowing as proof.

We fought the Nazis. Despite many in this country who at the time had no problem with them. To me that’s almost enough. 

Of course US foreign policy hasn’t been as pure as the driven snow. Name a country that has.

Take Iran for example. We played a huge part in the 50s getting their democratic elected leaders overturned. And we’re still paying for it today. Culminating in trumps support for murderers in Saudi Arabia, a country that played at least a part in an attack on this country.

So what exactly is your point? We should just tolerate our slide? 

We should be for democracy in this country first and foremost. It’s the election of a guy like trump that threatens that. Right now, at this moment in time, is what should be our main focus to prevent what he and his allies like putin are trying to do to this country. 

 

[Stilicho 1397]

My point is not that we should in any way tolerate our current slide into a high-tech banana republic. 

I whole-heartedly agree that we should push and strive for the ideals, in this country, that we’ve projected outward into the world. 

It’s my belief that in order to do that, we have to be honest with ourselves about who we are and where we have been as a country. That’s not always an easy truth to acknowledge. 

I absolutely believe we should try to live up to our own ideals. I don’t believe we should continue to make excuses as to why we haven’t. Let’s just fucking do it. 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

2 minutes ago, Stilicho said:

My point is not that we should in any way tolerate our current slide into a high-tech banana republic. 

I whole-heartedly agree that we should push and strive for the ideals, in this country, that we’ve projected outward into the world. 

It’s my belief that in order to do that, we have to be honest with ourselves about who we are and where we have been as a country. That’s not always an easy truth to acknowledge. 

I absolutely believe we should try to live up to our own ideals. I don’t believe we should continue to make excuses as to why we haven’t. Let’s just fucking do it. 

Of course we should, but half the country can't see past their own nose, much less have a critical thought about anything. And a lot of those people are in charge. 

[Francisco 2.0 32290]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

19 hours ago, Stilicho said:

My point is not that we should in any way tolerate our current slide into a high-tech banana republic. 

I whole-heartedly agree that we should push and strive for the ideals, in this country, that we’ve projected outward into the world. 

It’s my belief that in order to do that, we have to be honest with ourselves about who we are and where we have been as a country. That’s not always an easy truth to acknowledge. 

I absolutely believe we should try to live up to our own ideals. I don’t believe we should continue to make excuses as to why we haven’t. Let’s just fucking do it. 

It’s really an idealism vs realism debate.  

To keep this experiment called America going, we need a combination of both when it comes to foreign policy.  

We would love to spread democracy around the world but to accomplish that we probably shouldn’t go toppling every authoritarian regime at once. 

We are going to have to say the serenity prayer and make some compromises at times.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[HornOnTheBayou 8877]

16 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

[Anastasis 23375]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

 So basically you think it will make things better if the residents of Mayberry USA get more savvy and realize what's actually going on as opposed to what they think is going on when they wave their flags and drive their Chevrolets.  OK, I guess.  You're not advocating for a shred of change, you just don't like the fairy tale.

In order to implement the change, we must first dispense with the fairy tale. 

[Anastasis 23375]

55 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

There’s a your mom joke here, just FYI

ask your mom. she will reassure you it wasn't no joke. 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

54 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yeah, we built the biggest superpower the world has ever seen and a prosperous global economic order.

But we did all that for a reason.  We did it because our crazy ideas of the rule of law and free societies are worth fighting for.  We believed free societies are less likely to fight each other in wars.  

We did it because it suited our economic and military interests.  We needed access to markets around the world to sell our goods, we needed the markets themselves to be open (commies may not buy our 15 brands of toothpaste), and we needed access to raw materials.  Thanks to lobbyists and legal bribes (and not so legal), we also built up a military that needed to justify its existence, and that tied into that   

Even Vietnam was a part of that, as was South Korea. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

24 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

We did it because it suited our economic and military interests.  We needed access to markets around the world to sell our goods, we needed the markets themselves to be open (commies may not buy our 15 brands of toothpaste), and we needed access to raw materials.  Thanks to lobbyists and legal bribes (and not so legal), we also built up a military that needed to justify its existence, and that tied into that   

Even Vietnam was a part of that, as was South Korea. 

Yes, but the key to opening up markets is opening up the society with our democratic ideas.  

South Korea is a great example of our values leading to tremendous economic prosperity for their society and ours. 

Shitholes like North Korea will never prosper because their society is closed and doesn’t share our values.  

Edited December 1, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[triplehorn 2664]

 

It's a positive step in the right direction.  Those with a say don't have to agree with everything to the letter, but watch closely and throw any fuckers out in '20 who refuse to add constructively to the beginning of this critical reform.

 

 

[Ted Lange 15991]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

There’s a your mom joke here, just FYI

Moms*

[Ted Lange 15991]

5 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

 

It's a positive step in the right direction.  Those with a say don't have to agree with everything to the letter, but watch closely and throw any fuckers out in '20 who refuse to add constructively to the beginning of this critical reform.

 

 

So actually doing something to drain the swamp?  As opposed to Trumps bullshit that the fucking rubes like FCHorn and Swam fell for?

that being said, I will believe it when I see it. 

[Celery Man 20874]

swamps are very legal and very cool

[triplehorn 2664]

6 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

So actually doing something to drain the swamp?  As opposed to Trumps bullshit that the fucking rubes like FCHorn and Swam fell for?

that being said, I will believe it when I see it. 

I don't expect it to pass, but watch closely for the who and why if it doesn't and respond accordingly with your next votes.  This is more of a start of a formal conversation than a legislative elixir.  It'll take years to progress, and really, this is a fulcrum being dropped in the middle of the biggest investigation into a criminally corrupt organization we've ever seen in US politics.

[shnsajax 3589]

So actually doing something to drain the swamp?  As opposed to Trumps bullshit that the fucking rubes like FCHorn and Swam fell for?
that being said, I will believe it when I see it. 

They didn’t just fall for it, they still fucking believe it.

[TexArcher 37455]

58 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

swamps are very legal and very cool

The best swamps.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

Our strengths are economic and military hegemony built precisely by undermining democratic principles throughout the world when it fits our agenda. Our own democracy is a smoke screen. Our government is captured by corporate and special interests. In geopolitics, we all run the plays that create for us the greatest advantage.  

Oceans on both sides, tremendous natural resources, and a melting pot. Economic prosperity built on private property rights. The freedom to tell others to fuck off entirely without consequence. Work hard and get ahead. It's a winning formula.

[Brian Fantana 6654]

You're hopelessly naive.

[Celery Man 20874]

1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

Oceans on both sides, tremendous natural resources, and a melting pot. Economic prosperity built on private property rights. The freedom to tell others to fuck off entirely without consequence. Work hard and get ahead. It's a winning formula.

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

ask your mom. she will reassure you it wasn't no joke. 

Wow, sounds like they really worked you over.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're hopelessly naive.

Nope, if our gov't hadn't been hijacked, and sold to the highest bidders that concept works.  People are losing their belief that the system isn't totally gamed, and that will be our downfall. Corruption and ambivalence from within.

[Ted Lange 15991]

So your saying trump didn’t drain the swamp?  He’s actually made it worse.

My only hope is that his craven corruption and grifting leads to the Ds actually doing something about the swamp.  They are already saying they are.  If they get some of the stuff passed that they are talking about and take down a few of Trumps grifter staffers along the way, that’s gonna be a great message to sell in 2020.

[triplehorn 2664]

New Cohen Bombshells

Posted on Sat, Dec 1st, 2018 by Leo Vidal

"Michael Cohen tossed another bomb at Donald Trump late Friday night by publicly disclosing that he told his former boss, who was then a presidential candidate, about a phone call he made to Moscow in 2016. Cohen said he called the Kremlin to request help from the Russian government in building a Trump Tower in Russia’s capital city. 

Not only that, but Cohen also maintains that he got guidance from Trump’s lawyers and his White House staff in 2017 while he drafted his false statement to Congress seeking to cover up the truth about the Moscow project and the fact that Donald Trump was heavily involved in the project. 
[...]

The new accusations concerning President Trump were made by Cohen’s lawyers in a sentencing memorandum that was delivered to a federal judge in Manhattan on Friday night. 

Donald Trump has been downplaying his knowledge of the Moscow Trump Tower project, but Michael Cohen has now filed a court document saying he knew everything and was intimately involved in the project every step of the way. And Cohen said that his lies to Congress were in effect drafted with the knowledge and assistance of Donald Trump and his lawyers. "
 

...just another brick in the wall