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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump’s base has nowhere to go post Trump.

how 'bout the piedmont region west of lake baikal?  great fishing 6 mo out of the year, and ooooh that smoked omul.  make you smack your mama.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32,313

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8 minutes ago, retread said:

So If DOTUS fires Rosenstein in an effort to squelch the investigation, will he be able to find a willing dupe who will take a loyalty oath to tamp the investigation down and file it way in some warehouse?

latest?cb=20080121225827

Oh yeah.  He'll find a red-state pure blood true Trump MAGA US Attorney somewhere who will do whatever is necessary to get into his good graces.  

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23,356

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Trump has been at war with the FBI and the Justice Dept. for almost a year.

How would you say this war is going for Trump so far?

Do you really think Trump is savvy enough to outmaneuver the best and brightest legal/law enforcement minds in the country?

Odds are they know what Trump will do before he even does it and they’ve contingency planned for everything.

Deep State indeed.

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45,491

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2 hours ago, retread said:

It will be a candidate that will punish the opposition on a daily basis. Trump is a dream come true for those who have been listening to conservative talk radio for the last 20 years. They've been told that the Ds (Clinton and Obama) have gotten it over on them for two decades, and now it's time to elect R Presidents who will beat the Ds down (at least in the R voters' minds).

This is really the heart of the issue IMO.  There is a large contingent of this country that was sold the American Dream growing up, it didn't happen, and they have been looking for someone to blame since basically the 80s.  It started with the Fox/Limbaugh/whathaveyou and finally coalesced into this shit show we are living now.  I was born in 1982 so I wasn't able to watch it all happen, but I've now seen the result with dotus and I don't think it's going away.  These people have been brainwashed for several decades and have also passed it onto their children. 

As has been said, dotus is the symptom, not the cause.  When we get rid of him, they will still be here.  How do we deal with them going forward?  I feel there are too many of them (literally millions) to just brush off and hope they go away.  I don't have the answer, but I think it is a question that needs to seriously be considered.  I'm not saying their problems aren't real, but their solutions have been crafted by outside influences by nefarious means.  They are lost souls.  Do we try to win them back to reality?  Do we cast them into the dustbin of society?  I really don't know the answer.

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DDD Dad

DDD Dad 14,243

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13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Comparing Trump to Perot makes my brain hurt. 

There is no comparison. 

 

 

I represented Perot years ago in connection with the Reform Party. Without revealing any privileged communications I can state that having spent considerable time with him in person there is no comparison. 

 

Whether or not you agree with his policies, Perot genuinely injected himself into the political sphere because of a sense of patriotism.

Edited by DDD Dad
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cactusflinthead

cactusflinthead 27,594

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28 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

This is really the heart of the issue IMO.  There is a large contingent of this country that was sold the American Dream growing up, it didn't happen, and they have been looking for someone to blame since basically the 80s.  It started with the Fox/Limbaugh/whathaveyou and finally coalesced into this shit show we are living now.  I was born in 1982 so I wasn't able to watch it all happen, but I've now seen the result with dotus and I don't think it's going away.  These people have been brainwashed for several decades and have also passed it onto their children. 

As has been said, dotus is the symptom, not the cause.  When we get rid of him, they will still be here.  How do we deal with them going forward?  I feel there are too many of them (literally millions) to just brush off and hope they go away.  I don't have the answer, but I think it is a question that needs to seriously be considered.  I'm not saying their problems aren't real, but their solutions have been crafted by outside influences by nefarious means.  They are lost souls.  Do we try to win them back to reality?  Do we cast them into the dustbin of society?  I really don't know the answer.

It probably deserves its own thread. I can't exactly toss my family in the dustbin. The blue collar and rural voter heard Trump talking loudly to their fears. He didn't use polite words or use the doublespeak of Atwater. He straight up said that most people from Mexico were bad dudes and we gotta build a wall. It ramped up from there. But, that was music to their ears. All that talk about Big Tent was horseshit.  They are still running on fear of the other. Whatever flavor of Other is convenient or pertinent at that moment. Had a bombing? Muslims are the Debil. Kid died from an OD? Drugs are bad and we have to have more money for more police and y'all all need to be armed at all times. Fear. And it didn't start with Rush. The CPAC was going well before then. Goldwater talked about the crazies. Yeah, sure old man we know what we are doing said Atwater and the bright boys. Can't say the n word, but we can sure put the fear of Willie Horton into them. This is years of it.  Years of watering this tree and this is the fruit of it. 

The suburban voter that would not vote for Hillary won't have that problem next time. They do not seem to have a problem with voting for someone with a D next to their name in special elections since then. They are spending 600K in Trent Frank's old seat because they are skairt shitless that the jig is up and payday is coming. Hillary fired up the youth not one iota. She couldn't inspire my dog to piss on a tree. They are inspired now. Inspired to kick anyone's ass out of office that isn't solidly safe in their district.  And as those safe districts get scrutinized for gerrymandering those seem to be changing as well.

 

 

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

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1 minute ago, kevwun said:

It appears congressional critters have finally begun to grow a hint of a spine.  Firing Mueller may actually be Trump's Waterloo.

i'm wondering if mueller is waiting for trump to step into that trap.

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

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10 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

There is a large contingent of this country that was sold the American Dream growing up

my theory of the problem begins in the 1600s.  i think a significant part of our population descends from a large number of people who were treated very badly, and some elements of the resulting nature have been carefully handed down over the centuries.  people who have had to live for generations in very dangerous situations under the thumbs of hateful people develop very serious issues of paranoia.  take the sicilians or the romani peoples.  they develop extremely strong reliance on each other and reluctance to mix with other people in an ordinary sense.

my belief is that there is a deep illness that probably has no solution.  i don't know what we do.  my hope is that the younger generations will recognize this issue that my generation never knew existed.  hopefully they will find a way to deal with it.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2,664

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8 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

i'm wondering if mueller is waiting for trump to step into that trap.

Firing Mueller would be further evidence of a guilty conscience and coverup.  If it happens and GOP Congress does nothing, they get two coats of guilt. 

 

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

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3 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Firing Mueller would be further evidence of a guilty conscience and coverup.  If it happens and GOP Congress does nothing, they get two coats of guilt. 

 

firing mueller or rosenstein would set off a firestorm that is merely bubbling right now.  it might be the perfect setting for mueller to spring the rest of the trap.

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Born to Run

Born to Run 6,558

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This is really the heart of the issue IMO.  There is a large contingent of this country that was sold the American Dream growing up, it didn't happen, and they have been looking for someone to blame since basically the 80s.  It started with the Fox/Limbaugh/whathaveyou and finally coalesced into this shit show we are living now.  I was born in 1982 so I wasn't able to watch it all happen, but I've now seen the result with dotus and I don't think it's going away.  These people have been brainwashed for several decades and have also passed it onto their children. 
As has been said, dotus is the symptom, not the cause.  When we get rid of him, they will still be here.  How do we deal with them going forward?  I feel there are too many of them (literally millions) to just brush off and hope they go away.  I don't have the answer, but I think it is a question that needs to seriously be considered.  I'm not saying their problems aren't real, but their solutions have been crafted by outside influences by nefarious means.  They are lost souls.  Do we try to win them back to reality?  Do we cast them into the dustbin of society?  I really don't know the answer.


The problem is that is group is largely uninformed and live in echo chambers. Pro life, anti immigrants, pro guns. Single issue voters. And they are not flexible on these issues and never will be. DACA should be a common sense reform most reasonable people can favor. But the fear mongering is so effective it shuts down all reasonable dialogue. “Dreamers broke the law; kick them out”. The dialogue never gets deeper with this group. They have disenfranchised themselves at their own peril through willful ignorance.
Like unrepentant racist the only solution is they will slowly die off. It’s sad as I have lots of family that are in this group.
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yaqdum

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39 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

 


The problem is that is group is largely uninformed and live in echo chambers. Pro life, anti immigrants, pro guns. Single issue voters. And they are not flexible on these issues and never will be. DACA should be a common sense reform most reasonable people can favor. But the fear mongering is so effective it shuts down all reasonable dialogue. “Dreamers broke the law; kick them out”. The dialogue never gets deeper with this group. They have disenfranchised themselves at their own peril through willful ignorance.
Like unrepentant racist the only solution is they will slowly die off. It’s sad as I have lots of family that are in this group.

yes, indeed.  this is what i am talking about.  it is a family matter, and i believe it is of very long history.

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yaqdum

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3 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

It's coming.  You reap what you sow.

the gop is behaving as though they haven't been exposed.  they seem to think they can do their old slimey tricks and nobody will notice.  different world now.

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Chooky

Chooky 13,296

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"Well, you'll have to ask Michael Cohen.  Michael Cohen is my attorney.  And you'll have to ask Michael Cohen.  Michael Cohen's attorney is Dan "The Iron Hammer of Justice" McGee.  You'd have to ask The Iron Hammer of Justice, who will soon need his own representation.  As far as I know, and many people tell me, Dan "The Iron Hammer of Justice" McGee hasn't hired an attorney yet.  So you'll have to wait to ask the attorney who will soon be hired by The Iron Hammer of Justice, whomever that might be.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29,769

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14 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Hugo,  don't you think Trump's base is the only thing that will keep these GOP politicians in office?  Trump being impeached doesn't magically bring back the pre-Cheeto Republican Party and put them in a positive light.  These fuckers CREATED this situation. 

They are fucked, they know they're fucked, and they're gonna latch on to Donald's teat until it's over.  The spineless ones (like Paul Ryan) will "retire". 

 

The GOPs are in a terrible bind of their own making.  An electorate of 30% hard core Trumpists means that they are easily the dominant faction in a single party.  For incumbents, they can buck the Trumpists and lose the primary or embrace the Trumpists and loses in the general election.

For decent GOPs, they can go down on principle by condemning Trump or try to stay in office and do some good by not condemning Trump. A decent person would pause before surrendering his/her seat to a Trumpist or a hated Dem. 

Hacks like Ryan go with the direction of the wind and may have their hands in cookie jar. Non-hacks are screwed by the hacks.

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retread

retread 2,951

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1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

The GOPs are in a terrible bind of their own making.  An electorate of 30% hard core Trumpists means that they are easily the dominant faction in a single party.  For incumbents, they can buck the Trumpists and lose the primary or embrace the Trumpists and loses in the general election. 

I still don't understand why this is happening, but you can't ignore the fact that most R Congressmen/women bend the knee to Cheeto. They're professtional politicians, and they've made the calculation that the Cheeto voters are here to stay. They'll continue to support his Orangeness, and they'll vote for Trump 2.0 when he shows up.

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burntorangebongos

burntorangebongos 10,681

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Perot was right about some things. It would have been hard work and it would have meant forcing change, real change in Washington. So it didnt happen and we are here where we are. With a broken legislative process. Laws written to the highest bidder. Doped up to our gills, with an amatuer president who is a con man liar. We did this and only hard work and a clear plan will get us out. So I guess we're fucked.

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TornACL

TornACL 7,674

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7 minutes ago, retread said:

I still don't understand why this is happening, but you can't ignore the fact that most R Congressmen/women bend the knee to Cheeto. They're professtional politicians, and they've made the calculation that the Cheeto voters are here to stay. They'll continue to support his Orangeness, and they'll vote for Trump 2.0 when he shows up.

They have to. If they support Trump and he fails, they can always turn on him at the very end....and our ADHD society will remember them front and center heaping shovels of dirt on the failed administration. No one, save but a few, will remember them as sycophants in the early days.

However if the opposite happens...if they resist Trump and he is successful, their career is fucking over.

And there you have it, Career over Party. Party over Country.

Edited by TornACL
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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29,769

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3 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

here where we are. With a broken legislative process. Laws written to the highest bidder. Doped up to our gills, with an amatuer president who is a con man liar. We did this and only hard work and a clear plan will get us out. So I guess we're fucked.

Bigly.

The other part about the Trumpists is that they are driven almost exclusively by emotion. You can't argue someone out of a feeling. The Perotistas were drawn by ideas, that's why they dispersed. Trumpists are a mob.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23,356

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17 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

The GOPs are in a terrible bind of their own making.  An electorate of 30% hard core Trumpists means that they are easily the dominant faction in a single party.  For incumbents, they can buck the Trumpists and lose the primary or embrace the Trumpists and loses in the general election.

For decent GOPs, they can go down on principle by condemning Trump or try to stay in office and do some good by not condemning Trump. A decent person would pause before surrendering his/her seat to a Trumpist or a hated Dem. 

Hacks like Ryan go with the direction of the wind and may have their hands in cookie jar. Non-hacks are screwed by the hacks.

I'm beyond the short term with the GOP.  I'm more focused on what will rise from the ashes of Trumpism.  

There is going to be an ideological vacuum to fill on the right over the next 10 years.  It will be a tremendous opportunity for some to come along and reshape the conservative movement. 

To reshape a political party, you first have to break it.  It's in the breaking phase.

The reshaping phase is what I look forward to. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

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11 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

electorate of 30% hard core Trumpists

i don't begin to believe that 30% is homogeneous.  there is a wing of very sick people and a wing of people who are influenced to participate but aren't internally set.  between is an amalgam of varying natures, but the most reasonable of those people may abandon that group when it is clear they are capable of great noise but mostly only that.  i'm guessing 20% tops is untouchables.  country can get along nicely with them back to muttering and shaking fists at the clouds.  my hope is that with this issue exposed, it can no longer fester and reproduce in the dark corners.

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retread

retread 2,951

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5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I'm beyond the short term with the GOP.  I'm more focused on what will rise from the ashes of Trumpism.  

There is going to be an ideological vacuum to fill on the right over the next 10 years.  It will be a tremendous opportunity for some to come along and reshape the conservative movement.  

You may be right, but I don't think the 'team' battle lines are going to go away. The Trumpers will vote for R candidates who will faithfully beat up on the Ds and make daddy Limbaugh proud.

They've punted on many of the ideological principles that supposedly were foundations of the R party. Things like fiscal conservatism.

Edited by retread
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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45,538

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23 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

i don't begin to believe that 30% is homogeneous.  there is a wing of very sick people and a wing of people who are influenced to participate but aren't internally set.  between is an amalgam of varying natures, but the most reasonable of those people may abandon that group when it is clear they are capable of great noise but mostly only that.  

Agreed.  There are a significant number of pro-life Trumpers who ONLY align because of that single issue.  Many of them would otherwise align on immigration or even guns with centrists or even the left.  They willingly admit that they are single-issue voters who have to hold their nose while they case their vote.  It matters that much to them.  

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45,538

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18 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

This RNC campaign against Comey makes me think they're pretty worried about what's in that book.

It is the analog of getting out the majority opinion early in their "investigation" of Russian election interference.  Speak first, speak loudly.  Hope.

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