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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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Tuco

Tuco 5076

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Lobbyists are pretty clear on what they are lobbying for. Butina was using her pro gun lobbying efforts to get connections with the GOP. This wasn’t merely a paperwork oversight. She made a deal and she’s not a USA citizen. It’s silly to think the charges represent the full measure of her actions.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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13 minutes ago, Mack Tripper said:

In Soviet Russia, country ghosts you

This Butina thing is fascinating.  Part of me thinks it would be like Putin to order her to flip as his own form of releasing kompromat on the GOP/Trump.  What does Putin have to lose at this point? 

Another part of me thinks she could pull a Manafort and lie her ass off thus destroying her plea agreement.  Another win for Russia.

And another part of me thinks she’s just a scared girl and doesn’t know shit other than information on the regarded Americans she was banging.

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happyfunball

happyfunball 481

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This Butina thing is fascinating.  Part of me thinks it would be like Putin to order her to flip as his own form of releasing kompromat on the GOP/Trump.  What does Putin have to lose at this point? 

Another part of me thinks she could pull a Manafort and lie her ass off thus destroying her plea agreement.  Another win for Russia.

And another part of me thinks she’s just a scared girl and doesn’t know shit other than information on the regarded Americans she was banging.

Another part of me thinks she is tired of being fucked by old white men?

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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51 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Lobbyists are pretty clear on what they are lobbying for. Butina was using her pro gun lobbying efforts to get connections with the GOP. This wasn’t merely a paperwork oversight. She made a deal and she’s not a USA citizen. It’s silly to think the charges represent the full measure of her actions.

So the correct thing to do is clearly to assume that she committed more heinous crimes without any corroborating evidence in support of that assumption..

Quote

In the deal, prosecutors said Ms. Butina used her position as a gun-rights activist in Russia and worked with Mr. Torshin and Mr. Erickson — identified in court papers as “Russian Official” and “U.S. Person 1” — to infiltrate the Republican Party and the N.R.A. Her goal was to promote Russian-friendly policies on behalf of the Kremlin by establishing “unofficial lines of communication with Americans having power and influence over U.S. politics,” the prosecutors wrote

This sounds suspiciously like lobbying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/us/politics/maria-butina-russia-nra.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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7 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Why would a gun rights activist from Russia, a country with no corresponding 2nd Amendment, be working with American politicians to foster Russia-friendly policies?

Because the NRA is willing to launder Russian rubles, on the order of tens or a hundred million of dollars, for funneling directly into US political campaigns ?

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After the meeting, Butina sent the Russian Official a message, which was translated as saying “We should let them express their gratitude now, we will put pressure on them quietly later.”

Gratitude for what ? 

Sounds like someone(s) got bought by an aggressive and seductive foreign agent conspiring with state-sponsored spies in Russia for guidance, and oligarchs for support and funding.

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6683

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46 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

So the correct thing to do is clearly to assume that she committed more heinous crimes without any corroborating evidence in support of that assumption..

This sounds suspiciously like lobbying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/us/politics/maria-butina-russia-nra.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

How the fuck do you think plea deals work you titanic moron?

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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10 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

How the fuck do you think plea deals work you titanic moron?

I know this sounds insane, but I don't think the fact that Butina agreed to a plea deal is particularly strong evidence that she was, in fact, a spy. Also, it doesn't sound like the information they wish to obtain from Butina is related to espionage or Trump.

Quote

Investigators probably want to hear what Ms. Butina could tell them about Mr. Torshin’s efforts to influence American policy. They also most likely want to hear anything she knows about links between Russians and her boyfriend, Paul Erickson, a Republican operative who ran Patrick J. Buchanan’s 1992 presidential campaign and who moves in rarefied conservative circles despite accusations of fraud in three states.

 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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Also, it appears the conspiracy charge (conspiring to fail to give AG notification lol) comes with a five year sentence.  They probably had her dead to rights on the conspiracy charge so she took the plea deal to see if she could get her sentence reduced.  

Quote

She admits, as part of the deal, according to a copy obtained by ABC News that is expected to be filed to the court, that she and an unnamed “U.S. Person 1,” which sources have identified as longtime Republican operative Paul Erickson, with whom she had a multiyear romantic relationship, “agreed and conspired, with a Russian government official (“Russian Official”) and at least one other person, for Butina to act in the United States under the direction of Russian Official without prior notification to the Attorney General.”

Based on the description, the “Russian Official” appears to be Alexander Torshin, deputy governor of the Russian Central Bank and a close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin. Under his direction, the agreement said, she “sought to establish unofficial lines of communication with Americans having power and influence over U.S. politics.”

The agreement, which Butina signed on Saturday, Dec. 8, also notes that the conspiracy charge carries a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison, but the deal could see Butina receive a lesser sentence, depending on the level of her cooperation, before likely being deported back to Russia.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/maria-butina-accused-russian-agent-reaches-plea-deal/story?id=59719083

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Tuco

Tuco 5076

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1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

So the correct thing to do is clearly to assume that she committed more heinous crimes without any corroborating evidence in support of that assumption..

This sounds suspiciously like lobbying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/us/politics/maria-butina-russia-nra.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

I never said it was a heinous crime.  But, as shitty as lobbyists are, that's not really how they operate.  They actually tell you what they are lobbying for. It's kind of the point. 

Tell me, do you think American lobbyists generally operate through the CIA?

 

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Nivek

Nivek 16923

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This Butina thing is fascinating.  Part of me thinks it would be like Putin to order her to flip as his own form of releasing kompromat on the GOP/Trump.  What does Putin have to lose at this point? 
Another part of me thinks she could pull a Manafort and lie her ass off thus destroying her plea agreement.  Another win for Russia.
And another part of me thinks she’s just a scared girl and doesn’t know shit other than information on the regarded Americans she was banging.

Well there is the part about he saying take it easy on her mark and put the screws to him later that was alleged earlier.
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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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1 minute ago, Tuco said:

I never said it was a heinous crime.  But, as shitty as lobbyists are, that's not really how they operate.  They actually tell you what they are lobbying for. It's kind of the point. 

Tell me, do you think American lobbyists generally operate through the CIA?

 

lol Butina doesn't work for the FSB.  

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Tuco

Tuco 5076

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You think that the CIA does not operate through political influence operations resembling lobbying in other countries? 

Of course. They also work through journalists and NGOs. That doesn’t mean there is no difference between journalism and espionage.
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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17529

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

She’s not an intelligence officer for the FSB.   

Seriously, it is stupid that your so focused on who her precise employer is. She is an agent for the Russian government. She was involved in operations to screw with our democracy. Whether she is an actual officer or just an asset used by the FSB doesn't fucking matter. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Seriously, it is stupid that your so focused on who her precise employer is. She is an agent for the Russian government. She was involved in operations to screw with our democracy. Whether she is an actual officer or just an asset used by the FSB doesn't fucking matter. 

While you make a good point some of us are much more focused on semantics. For example, Butina is not an officer of the NRA, nor is she a member of the US secret service, so your points are therefore irrelevant and invalid. 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Neither were the Rosenbergs. Your point is shitty and irrelevant.

 

I'm sure now you'll pretend I'm saying Butina was as harmful as they were.

I didn’t bring up the CIA comparison, I just noted that it’s without justificstion.  The only connection to the FSB that I’ve seen in the recent news releases pertains to that “job offer” note found in Erickson’s home, which isn’t proof of anything. 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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14 minutes ago, Tuco said:


Nobody said she was an officer. The CIA works through plenty of people without a commission.

It’s odd that the press reported that stupid Erickson note regarding an FSB job offer but forgot to report anything regarding Butina working with the FSB. It’s also odd that the information the government is seeking from Butina in connection with her plea agreement has nothing to do with her ties to the FSB. 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28776

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35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You think that the CIA does not operate through political influence operations resembling lobbying in other countries? 

Yeah, and if they get caught they'll get arrested because it's a crime in those countries. They might even get killed, depending on the country. That's the nature of intelligence work. 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29904

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27 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

It’s odd that the press reported that stupid Erickson note regarding an FSB job offer but forgot to report anything regarding Butina working with the FSB. It’s also odd that the information the government is seeking from Butina in connection with her plea agreement has nothing to do with her ties to the FSB. 

Do you believe we have all the facts in this case?

Aren't you just pinning this whole absurd exercise on what is not known? She's not a spy or operative because we haven't seen the evidence that she's a spy.

You've refined being obtuse. She was arrested for being a foreign agent of a sort. She's pleaded guilty to at least one of a list of charges and she's cooperating in the investigation. Is this the action of an innocent or whatever you want to suggest (but not define) she is other than an a foreign agent working against the interests of the United States?

You didn't answer my question about the sabotage being espionage, or I missed it if you did. She was evidently here to sabotage or undermine something. Read up on it. You might change your position.

What position? Where did I say I have a position?

You sly boots you.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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16 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Do you believe we have all the facts in this case?

Aren't you just pinning this whole absurd exercise on what is not known? She's not a spy or operative because we haven't seen the evidence that she's a spy.

You've refined being obtuse. She was arrested for being a foreign agent of a sort. She's pleaded guilty to at least one of a list of charges and she's cooperating in the investigation. Is this the action of an innocent or whatever you want to suggest (but not define) she is other than an a foreign agent working against the interests of the United States?

You didn't answer my question about the sabotage being espionage, or I missed it if you did. She was evidently here to sabotage or undermine something. Read up on it. You might change your position.

What position? Where did I say I have a position?

You sly boots you.

Maybe she's a double agent working for the CIA as part of an operation to bring down the Trump admin?  Who is to say?  What she was charged with has nothing to do with espionage.  Manafort also acted as a foreign agent without advising the AG of his activities, is he also a spy?

I'm not a Trump supporter, much less a conservative.  I just don't see much there to support the contention that she is a spy.  I also find it a little funny how we treat a story of someone peddling influence for a foreign government as so scandalous when few care about the influence peddling that occurs every day in Washington that dwarfs whatever the Russians are doing.  This stuff is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to the mass of corruption that occurs openly and is perfectly legal.

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