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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Goredho
Goredho

Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
Incredulity

liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
Posted
They really are.  Maybe you think having ten year olds using heroin is a good thing, but on the chance that you don't, then you should support decriminalization, including the decriminalization of heroin.  Portugal has cut heroin usage in their population by 75% by decriminalizing usage of the drug.
Yes. I support decriminalization. Our drug laws are a mess. That doesn't mean every single person in prison for drug crimes doesn't belong in prison.
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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

Posted
Posted
58 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Let's be clear about something here: saying she is in solitary 22 hours of the day is somewhat akin to saying I'm on a hunger strike 22 hours a day.  Being alone, in and off itself, is not some significant punishment.  It's the duration of the continuous isolation which can cause distress, even drive people crazy given long enough duration.  There are probably thousands of people in our prison systems who have not any interaction with another human being for over a week.  To equate Butina's situation to theirs is trivializing their situation.  (Particularly since many of them are in solitary because they have mental health issues making it difficult to behave in prison, or society.) 

I dont dispute that at all. But we are talking pre-trial jail for her, not a discussion of punishment tactics in prison. To me, its not an apples to apples comparison, which lends itself to the absurd tenor of fozzz's argument. 

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Goredho

Goredho 17397

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

So is the moral principle at work here that it's okay to do horrific things to someone as long as that person hangs out with bad people?

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Certainly not on your part.  Solitary confinement is not new.  It is used all the time before and after trial and has been for years for various reasons.  Yet your heartfelt concern about its use as a method of torture comes up only now, after a Russian operative working on American soil pleads guilty to conspiring to influence Republican politicians through the NRA and evangelical groups.  And only then as a goalpost-move after you get pantsed attempting to claim there is no way she's a Russian operative.  Hmmm....

As for your question as to whether its okay to do horrible things to someone as long as that person hangs out with bad people, the answer is no. I don't think its okay to do horrific things to someone if they hang out with the NRA or Republicans.  But we're still pretty early in determining how much the NRA and Republicans might be under the sway of Russian interests, so I may change my mind as more information comes to light.  Thankfully, the feds are on it, so I'm sure we'll know more in due course.

I will say it again: The collective Republican response to the scrutiny of Russian political influence only makes sense if such scrutiny is an existential threat to the party itself.  All of the cockroaches scurrying as the light is turned on should tell you something.   Trump is the least of the GOP's Russian problems.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted (edited)

Butina was not in a good head space back in July after her initial arrest when a Judge issued a "mental health alert."  

vvv

Spoiler

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and yes, she was returned to solitary "for her safety" for sharing her attorney's contact info with another inmate:

Quote

Butina previously spent over two straight months in solitary confinement but was then briefly placed in general population, her lawyers wrote. On Nov. 21, she was removed "for her safety" after she was found giving another inmate her lawyer's phone number. Her lawyers argued the action does not constitute a "major or minor" infraction worthy of being held in solitary confinement.

Her lawyers said the deprivation of human contact is "starting to have a profound psychological impact" on Butina, who they say will require mental health treatment if she continues to be held in isolation.

About that last paragraph in the above quote, where her attys imply she may need mental health treatment if held in continued isolation, they likely have it backwards.  We can infer from the Judge issuing a "mental health alert" for Butina right after her detainment that she was experiencing a mental crisis - potentially was at a high suicide risk or acted in a way to suggest planning or intent.  In such a circumstance, solitary confinement is a safety precaution.  We don't know any details about her mental status since July, but evidently it was a big enough problem that a Judge got involved.  And that pre-dated any prolonged solitary confinement.

If she's sharing legal contact info with another inmate, it's not a stretch to realize she could be attempting an end-run communication channel.  Considering the people she's conspiring with back in Russia and here in the US, I'd consider that unsafe as well and justifies isolating her from the general population.

 

Edited by triplehorn
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Prepuce of Doom

Prepuce of Doom 21053

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Todd Gack said:

Can you imagine the effect this woman would've had if she were actually attractive.  Like, switch her with Anna Kournikova and let her at the GOP.  Damn...

I don't care how many whiskeys I've had, this Butina bitch is fugly.  Fuh. Glee.

If she were *too* attractive, it would have aroused too much suspicion (and boners).  She's still out of that dude's league, but not conspicuously and laughably so. 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Butina was not in a good head space back in July after her initial arrest when a Judge issued a "mental health alert."  

vvv

  Reveal hidden contents

DiUOW8BUYAEJWIg.jpg

and yes, she was returned to solitary "for her safety" for sharing her attorney's contact info with another inmate:

About that last paragraph in the above quote, where her attys imply she may need mental health treatment if held in continued isolation, they likely have it backwards.  We can infer from the Judge issuing a "mental health alert" for Butina right after her detainment that she was experiencing a mental crisis - potentially was at a high suicide risk or acted in a way to suggest planning or intent.  In such a circumstance, solitary confinement is a safety precaution.  We don't know any details about her mental status since July, but evidently it was a big enough problem that a Judge got involved.  And that pre-dated any prolonged solitary confinement.

If she's sharing legal contact info with another inmate, it's not a stretch to realize she could be attempting an end-run communication channel.  Considering the people she's conspiring with back in Russia and here in the US, I'd consider that unsafe as well and justifies isolating her from the general population.

 

Solitary confinement is used as treatment for mental distress?  lol.  Solitary has been demonstrated to be psychologically damaging to inmates, even over short durations.  I also don't think it's a requirement for someone to be put in solitary in order to institute a suicide watch, assuming one was even needed.  

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17659

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Solitary confinement is used as treatment for mental distress?  lol.  Solitary has been demonstrated to be psychologically damaging to inmates, even over short durations.  I also don't think it's a requirement for someone to be put in solitary in order to institute a suicide watch, assuming one was even needed.  

Why don't you go start a solitary confinement thread and confine yourself to it solitarily so you can continue your Butina masturbation in peace (for us)?

 

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Born to Run

Born to Run 6569

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Posted
If she were *too* attractive, it would have aroused too much suspicion (and boners).  She's still out of that dude's league, but not conspicuously and laughably so. 


This is correct. Perfect fit for her mark. With makeup and the right clothes she looks way better, but the homely style is perfect for her audience.
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Mdhorn

Mdhorn 5947

Posted
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Todd Gack said:

Can you imagine the effect this woman would've had if she were actually attractive.  Like, switch her with Anna Kournikova and let her at the GOP.  Damn...

I don't care how many whiskeys I've had, this Butina bitch is fugly.  Fuh. Glee.

Have you seen the dudes she's hanging with?  Personality isn't winning and looks went out the window a long time ago.  They are pied pipers for rats and whores.  I'm surprised she didn't get into one of Manaforts weird gang bangs.  

Edited by Mdhorn
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pyrohornIII

pyrohornIII 4814

Posted
Posted

An in depth article on the Steele Dossier and it's veracity:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/steele-dossier-retrospective

Quote

With that in mind, we thought it would be worthwhile to look back at the dossier and to assess, to the extent possible, how the substance of Steele’s reporting holds up over time. In this effort, we considered only information in the public domain from trustworthy and official government sources, including documents released by Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s office in connection with the criminal cases brought against Paul Manafort, the 12 Russian intelligence officers, the Internet Research Agency trolling operation and associated entities, Michael Cohen, Michael Flynn and George Papadopoulos. We also considered the draft statement of offense released by author Jerome Corsi, a memorandum released by House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Ranking Member Adam Schiff related to the Carter Page FISA applications and admissions directly from certain speakers.

These materials buttress some of Steele’s reporting, both specifically and thematically. The dossier holds up well over time, and none of it, to our knowledge, has been disproven.

But much of the reporting simply remains uncorroborated, at least by the yardstick we are using. Most significantly, the dossier reports a “well-developed conspiracy of co-operation between [Trump and his associates] and the Russian leadership,” including an “intelligence exchange [that] had been running between them for at least 8 years.” There has been significant investigative reporting about long-standing connections between Trump, his associates and Kremlin-affiliated individuals, and Trump himself acknowledged that the purpose of a June 2016 meeting between his son, Donald Trump Jr. and a Kremlin-connected lawyer was to obtain “dirt” on Hillary Clinton. But there is, at present, no evidence in the official record that confirms other direct ties or their relevance to the 2016 presidential campaign. With that caveat, here are excerpts from the dossier that correspond with details contained in official documents.

 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29902

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Fozzz said:

You defend locking someone convicted of no crime in solitary confinement for five months. 22 hours a day of isolation in a closet sized room for five months. You defend torture. 

Amusing. You believe this yet are so reluctant to believe Butina is a foreign agent working against the US. I should neg for obfuscation, distortion, and lying (closet sized room? You left out bread and water.), but you're kind of not worth it.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Solitary confinement is used as treatment for mental distress?  lol.  Solitary has been demonstrated to be psychologically damaging to inmates, even over short durations.  I also don't think it's a requirement for someone to be put in solitary in order to institute a suicide watch, assuming one was even needed.  

I'd call it an intervention, not treatment.  She also appears to have shifted between solitary and general jail population more than once as a function of cause and effect related to some combination of her mental state and post-incarceration behavior.  One thing her episodic solitary confinement has NOT been is a primary sustained condition from initial incarceration intended to "break her", or to extract a confession.  That line of thinking is pure RT propaganda. 

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

An in depth article on the Steele Dossier and it's veracity:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/steele-dossier-retrospective

 

recruited under duress by the FSB

one of the most chilling asspecks of that article to me.  if you can be useful and they have the goods on you for anything anywhere you have ever done that you absolutely must keep quiet, here they come and you will now jump when they say froggy.

that in mind, look at the senate.

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SKJ

SKJ 1311

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

I dont dispute that at all. But we are talking pre-trial jail for her, not a discussion of punishment tactics in prison. To me, its not an apples to apples comparison, which lends itself to the absurd tenor of fozzz's argument. 

That's how it is in much of the jail system, as well. Pre-trial, post-trial. Prison and jail are different in most cases (just for simplification), the amazing difference is that you have much more freedom in prison than you do in jail.

What's important to understand is that, in my estimation, jail is designed to break down your will to fight your case.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29902

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

If she were *too* attractive, it would have aroused too much suspicion (and boners).  She's still out of that dude's league, but not conspicuously and laughably so. 

Agree. Plus, the way she looks in the pictures with him shows such delight in being around him. If you're a regular guy and not someone, as our friends here, who only dates models, that's very attractive.

She looks fine just not stellar. When she lights up, she's pretty.

I usually dislike discussions about a newsworthy woman's looks, but it does seem relevant here as her role included seduction. 

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Goredho

Goredho 17397

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Todd Gack said:

Can you imagine the effect this woman would've had if she were actually attractive.  Like, switch her with Anna Kournikova and let her at the GOP.  Damn...

I don't care how many whiskeys I've had, this Butina bitch is fugly.  Fuh. Glee.

She's perfect for where she was targeted.  To most people, she's a 7 on her best day.  To a person with a gun fetish, put this in her hands and she's a 10.  Its like beer goggles, but gun goggles.

1.6289977.1138214230.JPG

Edited by Goredho
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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Extended solitary confinement is torture.

a lot depends on how it's administered.  the torture is the deprivation of stimulus when handled that way.  if this is primarily for her safety and to prevent correspondence from outside, there's a good chance she is given some sort of entertainment or some such to prevent deprivation.

edit:  if she is of the belief that she might be in mortal danger, she might well appreciate the protection.

Edited by yaqdum
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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Extended solitary confinement is torture.

Yes, but I do not think this is what she was dealing with. 

1 minute ago, yaqdum said:

a lot depends on how it's administered.  the torture is the deprivation of stimulus when handled that way.  if this is primarily for her safety and to prevent correspondence from outside, there's a good chance she is given some sort of entertainment or some such to prevent deprivation.

This. Manafort had creature comforts but was forced in solitary so that he couldn't communicate out what is going on. 

I'm not going to feel sorry for spies or traitors having to spend time alone so that they cannot continue their work from inside jail. Again, these aren't black sites or a dark hole underground, this is them being sequestered away from general population. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13191

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

a lot depends on how it's administered.  the torture is the deprivation of stimulus when handled that way.  if this is primarily for her safety and to prevent correspondence from outside, there's a good chance she is given some sort of entertainment or some such to prevent deprivation.

edit:  if she is of the belief that she might be in mortal danger, she might well appreciate the protection.

Months of being completely alone by force is torture. We are social animals and need interaction with other human beings.

I don't know the specifics of this case, but it's disgusting to see people (1) defend solitary confinement and (2) assume that we are good-faith actors when we have no reason at all to believe that we are.

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

This seems like a big deal. Is this a bid deal? 

Have a buddy that clerked there and I'll share what I know:  this court is unlike other district courts.  They have FISA courts there, safes, super sealed off stuff that only certain judges can get to, other things I can't think of right now.  Point being: weird is sort of normal there, so I would not attribute this to something huge without more just yet.  

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45665

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

Have a buddy that clerked there and I'll share what I know:  this court is unlike other district courts.  They have FISA courts there, safes, super sealed off stuff that only certain judges can get to, other things I can't think of right now.  Point being: weird is sort of normal there, so I would not attribute this to something huge without more just yet.  

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

I don't know the specifics of this case, but it's disgusting to see people . . . assume that we are good-faith actors when we have no reason at all to believe that we are.

I don't know the specifics of this case, but I'm disgusted to see people not assume that we are torturing someone pre-trial based on a single line about their incarceration.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, triplehorn said:

I'd call it an intervention, not treatment.  She also appears to have shifted between solitary and general jail population more than once as a function of cause and effect related to some combination of her mental state and post-incarceration behavior.  One thing her episodic solitary confinement has NOT been is a primary sustained condition from initial incarceration intended to "break her", or to extract a confession.  That line of thinking is pure RT propaganda. 

You consider 67 consecutive days in solitary "episodic"? lol.  You people are deranged.  

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