The Robert Mueller Investigation

[Felix 598]

Y'all are ruining my having Fozzz on ignore with all these quotes.  Do yourself a favor.  He'd not a serious poster.

[bad_teammate 13,125]

23 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

I don't know the specifics of this case, but I'm disgusted to see people not assume that we are torturing someone pre-trial based on a single line about their incarceration.

I am automatically suspicious of federal and state authority, especially with regard to imprisonment. Our track record of how we treat foreign nationals/terrorist suspects is nothing to be proud of. And any confession from someone who has spent extended time in custody is very suspect, much less those who have been put in solitary confinement.

Injustice begets injustice.

[Fozzz 152]

Oh, wow, look at that - this is exactly what I've been saying itt.

Quote

After spending five months in jail, Butina admitted having served as an agent of the Russian government without duly notifying the U.S. attorney general. That summoned memories of 10 people accused of being Russian sleeper agents in the U.S. in 2010, including Anna Chapman, who later became a minor celebrity in Russia, who pleaded guilty to the same offense. But the U.S. government’s complaint against that group stated unequivocally that they had been sent to the U.S. to lie in wait until the Russian foreign intelligence service decided to use them.

No such accusation is being made in Butina’s case. She’s only admitted that she’d been working in the U.S. at the behest of Alexander Torshin, who resigned as deputy governor of the Russian central bank last month, and that she knew that he was coordinating his instructions for her with the Russian foreign ministry.

The Chapman group didn’t plead guilty in exchange for cooperating with U.S. authorities; that would have made the intelligence assets traitors to Russia, the country to which they were deported immediately after sentencing. Instead, they were swapped for four people Russia had accused of working for Western intelligence services in Russia, including the victim of a botched poisoning in the U.K. this year, Sergey Skripal.

Butina, by contrast, promised to cooperate and will remain behind bars answering questions until at least mid-February, when the date of her sentencing may be determined in the next court hearing. It would have been hard for a Russian spy to agree to such terms knowing she’d be sent home: There, she’d almost certainly face prosecution for spilling the beans, or worse.

Butina isn’t being treated as a spy. If she were, any cooperation with the authorities would have been secret and she would have been offered protection, not warned bluntly of deportation — or she would have been swapped, like the 10 “sleepers.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-14/the-maria-butina-case-is-not-about-russian-spying

In before someone accuses the author of this Bloomberg piece of working for the FSB and/or hating 'murica.  

[DDD Dad 14,167]

I miss the sad smoking Japanese girl Fozzz.  She was a better poster than Ingrid.

[Fozzz 152]

you know, a new avi sounds like a good idea.

[Zavala 1,384]

https://www.ajc.com/news/national-govt--politics/entire-floor-federal-courthouse-sealed-off-for-mystery-case/JyerATnO5wL4gJKcS6nVJP/

Quote

Entire floor at D.C. federal courthouse sealed off for mystery case

 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3,861]

1 hour ago, triplehorn said:

Not only courtroom sealed, but whole floor:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

This seems like a big deal. Is this a bid deal? 

 

1 hour ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

Have a buddy that clerked there and I'll share what I know:  this court is unlike other district courts.  They have FISA courts there, safes, super sealed off stuff that only certain judges can get to, other things I can't think of right now.  Point being: weird is sort of normal there, so I would not attribute this to something huge without more just yet.  

 

 

I'm reading the article about the case from mid-October.  It does look like a big deal.  This politico case makes a good argument that this is pretty important.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/10/31/has-robert-mueller-subpoenaed-trump-222060

 

Article says:  it is timed with Rudy saying their almost done with their presidential subpoena brief, a trump-nominated justice / former counsel to the president recused himself, it involved the special prosecutor because they overheard them talking about it, everything has been handled with pretty shocking speed.  they also claim that the appellant moving for en banc rehearing is a signal that this must be important, but I don't place any weight on that.

 

 

[triplehorn 2,664]

33 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

You consider 67 consecutive days in solitary "episodic"? lol.  You people are deranged.  

The point is that her solitary confinement has NOT been one continuous episode implying primary intent, she's reportedly exhibited irregular behavior in the general jail population eliciting a response with return to solitary, and a Judge intervened soon after the inception of her incarceration issuing a formal "mental health alert."  Solitary sucks, but she's been in and out of it based on apparent behavioral cause and effect, she has access to legal counsel who also report to the press, and her mental health/medical health needs are being documented and responded to.  If it weren't for her being his own sparrow, Putin would be mocking us for doing it wrong, from a dictator's perspective that is.

And I don't care to click on 99% of the source links that searching "Butina 67 consecutive days" produces.  Makes Russia Today look fair and balanced.

[Fozzz 152]

12 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

The point is that her solitary confinement has NOT been one continuous episode implying primary intent, she's reportedly exhibited irregular behavior in the general jail population eliciting a response with return to solitary, and a Judge intervened soon after the inception of her incarceration issuing a formal "mental health alert."  Solitary sucks, but she's been in and out of it based on apparent behavioral cause and effect, she has access to legal counsel who also report to the press, and her mental health/medical health needs are being documented and responded to.  If it weren't for her being his own sparrow, Putin would be mocking us for doing it wrong, from a dictator's perspective that is.

And I don't care to click on 99% of the source links that searching "Butina 67 consecutive days" produces.  Makes Russia Today look fair and balanced.

The 67 consecutive days comes from the motion filed by Butina's attorney , not from Russia Today.  She was in solitary for over two months straight until the judge finally acquiesced to one of her attorney's requests that she be released into the general population.  Additionally, the purported reason for her subsequent return to solitary had nothing to do with her mental health.  

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5301934-Order.html

All right here.

[triplehorn 2,664]

That's consistent with everything I've said.

[Chooky 13,292]

5 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

That's consistent with everything I've said.

He doesn't care.  He just wants to say it harder.

[Yuk 1,505]

 

[Yuk 1,505]

Michael Dreeben once being a Deputy Solicitor General seems more important.  I would think this likely implies that there are constitutional issues at play in the subpoena.

[Fozzz 152]

8 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

That's consistent with everything I've said.

Your contention that her continuous stint in solitary, which was so excessive in duration that it exceeded the limit permitted under the UN's Mandela Rules regarding the treatment of prisoners, was not done in an effort to break her down, but was actually to her benefit? lol.  

[F250 28,659]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

I am automatically suspicious of federal and state authority, especially with regard to imprisonment. Our track record of how we treat foreign nationals/terrorist suspects is nothing to be proud of. And any confession from someone who has spent extended time in custody is very suspect, much less those who have been put in solitary confinement.

Injustice begets injustice.

I am as well, however after 9/11 I learned that this kind of talk will fall on deaf ears and you will be just seen as siding with the enemy of the day if you speak out.

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

[Yuk 1,505]

I'm going to make the guess that this relates to Julian Assange.

[bad_teammate 13,125]

31 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

That's consistent with everything I've said.

It's really not. At all.

If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing (which I understand), at least look at #3 and #6. Maybe #9 and #10 as well. The last part of #9 should horrify anyone, where a person's sanity and basic human dignity is kept out of the official documentation and relegated to a sticky note on a guard stand.

It seems likely that Butina attempted (and succeeded to some extent) to influence American police re: Russia by infiltrating easy-to-infiltrate idiots (NRA and Republicans). If proven, then I hope all reasonable punishments/responses are effected.

However, I do not understand why anyone wants our government locking bit players up in solitary confinement, lying about the causes, and hiding it from official documentation. What are you people even fighting for? A fascist police state with a more attractive flag?

The order at the end says they either have to transfer her to Gen Pop or show cause to keep her in solitary. Instead of showing cause, they transferred her to Gen Pop. Could that be because they didn't have cause to show?

[Nolacycling 893]

i fell for the Fozz schtick and then she turned up on basketball thread saying shaka was a good coach. Definitely a troll.

[Chooky 13,292]

I wonder what it felt like when Rocko learned that he immediately sucked under any username even without his preconceived history of suckage not being taken in account.  

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3,861]

5 minutes ago, Yuk said:

I'm going to make the guess that this relates to Julian Assange.

I like it.  Extradition +  complicated issues dealing with the consulate and any desire the Ecuadorian government has to kick him out, and any issue of the British government willing to cooperate. 

[Ghost of LL 15,348]

2 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

I like it.  Extradition +  complicated issues dealing with the consulate and any desire the Ecuadorian government has to kick him out, and any issue of the British government willing to cooperate. 

I don't know that that explains either the accelerated schedule or Judge Katsas' recusal.

[Yuk 1,505]

Just now, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

I like it.  Extradition +  complicated issues dealing with the consulate and any desire the Ecuadorian government has to kick him out, and any issue of the British government willing to cooperate. 

Dreeben has argued over 100 cases before SCOTUS.  Justice Roberts says that makes him the second person this century to achieve that milestone.  He's a heavy hitter.  I think there's also something related to journalist and constitution entangled in the arguments.

[Yuk 1,505]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

I don't know that that explains either the accelerated schedule or Judge Katsas' recusal.

From that Politico article up above:

Judge Greg Katsas, the court's only Trump appointee and who had worked on the Russia probe while serving in the Trump White House, had recused himself. During his confirmation hearing, Katsas said he would take a broad view of his recusal obligations stemming from that experience.

[Pig Bellmont 8,679]

maybe old news about today’s mystery hearing but it’s hard to tell with Fozz trolling conspiracy theories 

[triplehorn 2,664]

17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's really not. At all.

If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing (which I understand), at least look at #3 and #6. Maybe #9 and #10 as well. The last part of #9 should horrify anyone, where a person's sanity and basic human dignity is kept out of the official documentation and relegated to a sticky note on a guard stand.

It seems likely that Butina attempted (and succeeded to some extent) to influence American police re: Russia by infiltrating easy-to-infiltrate idiots (NRA and Republicans). If proven, then I hope all reasonable punishments/responses are effected.

However, I do not understand why anyone wants our government locking bit players up in solitary confinement, lying about the causes, and hiding it from official documentation. What are you people even fighting for? A fascist police state with a more attractive flag?

The order at the end says they either have to transfer her to Gen Pop or show cause to keep her in solitary. Instead of showing cause, they transferred her to Gen Pop. Could that be because they didn't have cause to show?

First, it's great that people care about this and that things can be done.  I care about this.  Second, I responded to the Fozz's words, not the attorney document.  I just read the document.  She was detained July 15.  The document reports 67 + 6 days solitary between July 15 and Nov 27th, so solitary appx 53% of her time in jail (appx 136 days to that point).  I'm also a little skeptical about the 67 "continuous" versus "total" as there's some wiggle room for distortion.  

I'm not arguing that prolonged solitary confinement can't be psychologically harmful.  I'm pointing out that it has not been used indefinitely or from inception as a form of coercion.  The legal document fails to account for the reported conduct that led to the re-institution on solitary and it appears to dramatize the jail notification of her legal counsel about the re-institution of her solitary confinement as if it resembled an urgent act of whistleblowing.  I'm all for limiting solitary to 15 days (UN Mandela Rules) and giving a person a supervised break before re-instating, and ensuring documentation clearly justifies the use of continued solitary.  Good on her attorneys for staying on it.  But what you and Fozzz are pumping tilts extreme, imo.

[bad_teammate 13,125]

6 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

The legal document fails to account for the reported conduct that led to the re-institution on solitary and it appears to dramatize the jail notification of her legal counsel about the re-institution of her solitary confinement as if it resembled an urgent act of whistleblowing.

67 days in sensory and social isolation, whether consecutive or intermittent, is enough on its own to be dramatic. That is an abuse of basic human rights and the justification to do that to someone should be an extremely high bar to clear. I am not even sure what Butina is supposed to have done, and neither do Butina's attorneys, because the jail provided no justification (and purposefully attempted to hide what they were doing from official documentation systems).

And what am I "pumping", exactly?

Is any criticism of our police state an automatic endorsement of Putin's obvious attempt to influence American policy and elections? There is literally no point in worrying about ANY of this if our primary concern is not the morality and justice of ourselves and our actions.

How can any "confession" be taken seriously after the person giving the "confession" was locked in sensory and social isolation for literal months beforehand?

Are we a nation who tortures? If we don't answer, "No" and then back that up then this is all a farce.

[BurntOrange&White 39,486]

If a witness is high profile or priority it is not uncommon for the to be in solitary confinement. It’s nothing new.



Fozz you’re a fucking idiot.

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

35 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

maybe old news about today’s mystery hearing but it’s hard to tell with Fozz trolling conspiracy theories 

Where was Roger Stone today? 

[Chooky 13,292]

17 minutes ago, Bevo VIII said:

If a witness is high profile or priority it is not uncommon for the to be in solitary confinement. It’s nothing new.



Fozz you’re a fucking idiot.

Name one dangerous thing that has happened to someone connected to sinister activities in Russia other than all of those deadly, dangerous things that happened to all those people recently and in the last ten years.  Name one thing other than all of those other things.  Just one.

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

This is all silly.... Flynn's just trying to get off light on sentencing.  

 

Also filed today...

This chart, which should be taken with a grain of salt, gives some context with other Special Prosecution Investigations.  Pay the folks complaining about the cost or length of this no mind.  Let the dude and his team do their job.

 

[Jiggy-Z 3,428]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

This is all silly.... Flynn's just trying to get off light on sentencing.  

 

Also filed today...

This chart, which should be taken with a grain of salt, gives some context with other Special Prosecution Investigations.  Pay the folks complaining about the cost or length of this no mind.  Let the dude and his team do their job.

 

"We are going to build a special counsel, and Paul Manafort will pay for it". That is a deal I can get behind.

[triplehorn 2,664]

 

[Dahobbs 17,420]

38 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

67 days in sensory and social isolation

Sensory isolation? Where are you getting that? Because sensory isolation is completely different from solitary confinement. 

As to the larger argument, I am generally suspicious of law enforcement activity and I agree that solitary confinement can be a form of torture. I don't know enough about this situation to form any concrete opinion as to whether Butina was mistreated or not. I hope that she was not. However, separation from the general population for her seems prudent given the propensity of Russian connected criminals to mysteriously die and given the propensity of other individuals involved to continue their criminal conduct from within jail.  Point being that plausible justifications exist for her apparent isolation. I would hope the fact that she hadn't actually been convicted of a crime at that point would also mean that she was provided suitable alternative contact and entertainment, as punishment prior to trial is offensive to me. 

And none of that changes my opinion that whether or not she was a "spy" as a matter of employment is irrelevant to whether she was involved in a foreign government's operation to subvert our democracy. Nor is is relevant to my opinion that such actions are serious and are not mere "lobbying" as suggested by Fozzz. 

[triplehorn 2,664]

Been awhile since I snuck a peak at the Scooby Gang:

Re the mysterious DC Courthouse floor being shut down today:

VVV

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

I want to believe

[bad_teammate 13,125]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Sensory isolation? Where are you getting that?

Read. #3.

Quote

However, separation from the general population for her seems prudent given the propensity of Russian connected criminals to mysteriously die and given the propensity of other individuals involved to continue their criminal conduct from within jail.

Butina asked to not be in solitary. "For her protection" sounds a lot like "stop resisting!" given that the person at risk doesn't see it that way.

The Russians are not invisible, omnipresent bogeymen that can do all things in all places. You can keep people safe from Putin in a secure facility that doesn't involve torturing someone for their own good.

[hayden_horn 11,360]

mike pence with regard to the flynn sentencing? is that it?

since flynn lied to pence?

[yaqdum 182]

i don't understand why the reporters don't storm that floor.  i mean, there's surely enough of them.  just a few small arms and a backhoe or two and they could GET ME THE INFORMATION THAT I NEED.

[Dahobbs 17,420]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Read. #3.

Butina asked to not be in solitary. "For her protection" sounds a lot like "stop resisting!" given that the person at risk doesn't see it that way.

The Russians are not invisible, omnipresent bogeymen that can do all things in all places. You can keep people safe from Putin in a secure facility that doesn't involve torturing someone for their own good.

That isn't sensory deprivation. Look, I understand how court filings work. I see one side of the story. I'd like to see the other side before I rush to any conclusions. There are potentially valid reasons for putting her into solitary for some period of time. I'd like more context before immediately jumping to the idea that she was tortured to get a confession. It is concerning, but I'm not going to be outraged merely because an attorney has alleged his/her client was mistreated.  

[DixonHur 11,074]

This is like the recruiting thread of the Politics board.  Who's the mystery recruit?

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3,861]

18 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

mike pence with regard to the flynn sentencing? is that it?

since flynn lied to pence?

I think the book is closed on Flynn.  It has to be w/r/t other issues.

[atomheartbevo 89,362]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

This is like the recruiting thread of the Politics board.  Who's the mystery recruit?

Instead of flight tracker, we have tweet tracker, that shows that somebody else has been posting in Dotard’s place today. 

Because after all of his angry tweets this week, he is running silent today. 

Edit: not saying Trump is being questioned, just pointing out that whoever is may have him spooked. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[DixonHur 11,074]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

Instead of flight tracker, we have tweet tracker, that shows that somebody else has been posting in Dotard’s place today. 

Because after all of his angry tweets this week, he is running silent today. 

Maybe he's a silent commit to Levenworth

[Loco 3,752]

when did the republicans start caring about detention conditions and torture?    Isn't that kinda their thing?

[Pig Bellmont 8,679]

19 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

mike pence with regard to the flynn sentencing? is that it?

since flynn lied to pence?

Pence as a grand jury witness... that would be a major bombshell. 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3,861]

Is the saddest defense ever of a National Security Advisor that "[t]he agents did not provide General Flynn with a warning of the penalties for making a false statement under 18 U.S.C. § 1001 before, during, or after the interview"?

[hayden_horn 11,360]

3 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

Is the saddest defense ever of a National Security Advisor that "[t]he agents did not provide General Flynn with a warning of the penalties for making a false statement under 18 U.S.C. § 1001 before, during, or after the interview"?

yeah. you'd think that a guy savvy enough to make general would know that you don't fucking lie to the fbi.

i mean, that's fairly common knowledge.

[Grandioso 2,592]

Yeah, this is an interesting poster child for prison reform. But there's nothing wrong with being consistent. For any nonviolent non-danger to himself/herself/others person, solitary should be off the table. Also, the optics are not great if we're going to shame Russia for human rights abuses/Magnitsky and then not-quite-torture-but-you're-getting-there to one of its citizens.

[Grandioso 2,592]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

yeah. you'd think that a guy savvy enough to make general would know that you don't fucking lie to the fbi.

i mean, that's fairly common knowledge.

These are defenses that are usually relied on by the lawyers of mentally disabled people and juveniles. "The FBI tricked me" should not fly for someone who was supposedly qualified to be a National Security Advisor.