The Robert Mueller Investigation

[maninblack 7975]

This is getting good 

Hopefully we can get to the punchline soon

[Sawbonz 28219]

Cohen calling Peter stone a liar on twitter

[TwiceHorn 32078]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

She raises an interesting point.  According to the Special Counsel Rules:

Quote

 

§ 600.9 Notification and reports by the Attorney General.

(a) The Attorney General will notify the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member of the Judiciary Committees of each House of Congress, with an explanation for each action -

(1) Upon appointing a Special Counsel;

(2) Upon removing any Special Counsel; and

(3) Upon conclusion of the Special Counsels investigation, including, to the extent consistent with applicable law, a description and explanation of instances (if any) in which the Attorney General concluded that a proposed action by a Special Counsel was so inappropriate or unwarranted under established Departmental practices that it should not be pursued.

(b) The notification requirement in paragraph (a)(1) of this section may be tolled by the Attorney General upon a finding that legitimate investigative or privacy concerns require confidentiality. At such time as confidentiality is no longer needed, the notification will be provided.

(c) The Attorney General may determine that public release of these reports would be in the public interest, to the extent that release would comply with applicable legal restrictions. All other releases of information by any Department of Justice employee, including the Special Counsel and staff, concerning matters handled by Special Counsels shall be governed by the generally applicable Departmental guidelines concerning public comment with respect to any criminal investigation, and relevant law.

 

The Attorney General, or, in this case, Rosenstein, is not obligated to make public the findings of the special counsel.  Nor is he obliged even to report fully to Congress.

 

A Trumpy Deputy AG or new AG that isn't Sessions, could possibly keep this out of the hands of the public and of Congress.  The pressure to do so would be withering, but a complete trumpyAG might get away with it.

Edited April 14, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[SubliminalHorn 7009]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

She raises an interesting point.  According to the Special Counsel Rules:

The Attorney General, or, in this case, Rosenstein, is not obligated to make public the findings of the special counsel.  Nor is he obliged even to report fully to Congress.

 

A Trumpy Deputy AG or new AG that isn't Sessions, could possibly keep this out of the hands of the public and of Congress.  The pressure to do so would be withering, but a complete trumpyAG might get away with it.

If this happens, there would be a tsunami of details flowing out. No way it stays a secret. We’re way too far along at this point. 

[Sawbonz 28219]

The pentagon papers would have nothing on this

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Yeah, Trump wouldn’t get away with that.

Mueller will be called to testify before the American people at some point anyway.

I’m confident he would tell us what needed to be known.

[triplehorn 2664]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure Cohen's TRO suit is going to get anywhere, which wasn't the point of the post.  However, it appears that a central allegation by the government in support of the warrant is that Cohen has few or no clients other than Trump and Trumpco, so there is minimal privileged info in his office.  Will be interesting to see if that's true, and whether the government outkicked its coverage on any of the other allegations in support of the warrant.

My bet is that Cohen's functions are not at all in the recognizable capacity of a practicing attorney.  He's a businessman and mob style consigliere.  The TRO seems like a hail mary that buys him 72hrs.  If that becomes immediately apparent on Monday, it could reflect very poorly on Cohen and Trump as blatant deception out of desperation.

[triplehorn 2664]

33 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

If this happens, there would be a tsunami of details flowing out. No way it stays a secret. We’re way too far along at this point. 

It's important to keep in mind how much cooperation has come from allied foreign intelligence.  My understanding is that nuclear evidence has been sat on by multiple MSM sources since early last summer likely involving multiple subjects.  Beyond our MSM, I have a feeling if any of those foreign allied nations developed a sudden urgency to torch Trump outside of Mueller, he'd be done.  Mueller's ongoing investigation is the reason it hasn't become disorderly yet.

[Ragnarok 103]

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/257335/robert-muellers-beltway-cover-up  

Nice article by Lee Smith that gets to the heart of the matter:

As director of the FBI during the post-9/11 period, when foreign intelligence surveillance and its abuses made regular front-page headlines, Muller knows exactly how the system can be abused—and what the penalties are. He also recognizes that Russiagate is evidence of how it was abused, and who abused it—including some of the same people he worked with during his 12-year tenure as FBI director.

The purpose of the Mueller inquiry is therefore not to investigate the mostly ludicrous-seeming charges in the Steele dossier, but to protect the institution of the FBI, former colleagues, as well as the national security surveillance system. Therefore the inquiry has to cover up the sinful origins of the collusion narrative itself—which was born in repeated abuses of power and subsequent crimes committed by US officials in the intelligence bureaucracy and the Obama administration.

Smith goes on: By using the justice system as a political weapon to attack the enemies of the country’s elite, Robert Mueller and his supporters in both parties are confirming what many Americans already believe. That in spite of all the fine rhetoric, we are not all equal under one law. There is in fact a privileged class, a ruling class that sees its own interests as identical with the public good, and never pays a price for its failures, its abuses, and its crimes.”

[WhatTheBuck 28929]

Riiiiiiiiight. 

[Degenerate Gardner 4159]

Ruling class, privileged class... more Bannon-esque deep state shenanigans.  The lamentations that we're not equal under the law is a nice touch.  I'm getting all misty-eyed here.

 

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

28 minutes ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Ruling class, privileged class... more Bannon-esque deep state shenanigans.  The lamentations that we're not equal under the law is a nice touch.  I'm getting all misty-eyed here.

 

 

Wait, I thought Trump was a billionaire...Wouldn't the "ruling class" cut him some slack since he was in the club?

[BrickHorn 18447]

3 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Wait, I thought Trump was a billionaire...Wouldn't the "ruling class" cut him some slack since he was in the club?

He’s a billionaire who also happens to be the most powerful man in the world.  But he’s being oppressed by the ruling class.

The idiocy of that argument is so obvious that Lee Smith might as well have “IMBECILE” tattooed in bright red letters on his forehead.  But 35% of American voters will just nod and think “that makes sense to me!” without noticing the fundamental absurdity.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Dude, haven't you heard, he's a "blue collar billionaire" who's "just like us."

[Anastasis 23718]

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/257335/robert-muellers-beltway-cover-up  

Nice article by Lee Smith that gets to the heart of the matter:

As director of the FBI during the post-9/11 period, when foreign intelligence surveillance and its abuses made regular front-page headlines, Muller knows exactly how the system can be abused—and what the penalties are. He also recognizes that Russiagate is evidence of how it was abused, and who abused it—including some of the same people he worked with during his 12-year tenure as FBI director.

The purpose of the Mueller inquiry is therefore not to investigate the mostly ludicrous-seeming charges in the Steele dossier, but to protect the institution of the FBI, former colleagues, as well as the national security surveillance system.

Therefore the inquiry has to cover up the sinful origins of the collusion narrative itself—which was born in repeated abuses of power and subsequent crimes committed by US officials in the intelligence bureaucracy and the Obama administration.

Smith goes on: By using the justice system as a political weapon to attack the enemies of the country’s elite, Robert Mueller and his supporters in both parties are confirming what many Americans already believe. That in spite of all the fine rhetoric, we are not all equal under one law. There is in fact a privileged class, a ruling class that sees its own interests as identical with the public good, and never pays a price for its failures, its abuses, and its crimes.”

This is going to send some posters here into conniptions.

[wildcat09 29579]

5 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Wait, I thought Trump was a billionaire...Wouldn't the "ruling class" cut him some slack since he was in the club?

That same “ruling class” has also let him get away with a lifetime of largely petty criminality. 

[hobbes2702 13473]

28 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

This is going to send some posters here into conniptions.

 

Because it’s retarded?

[Pescado_Rojo 19587]

If Trump is truly a Billionaire I'll eat my hat.

[Grandioso 2592]

15 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

If Trump is truly a Billionaire I'll eat my hat.

I'm not sure the "KING OF DEBT" even has a positive net worth.

[SmokeyBear1861 107]

What if Mueller is actually going to drain the fuck out of the swamp? What if Comey faked the beef between him and Trump to serve up the criminal politicians with his buddy Mueller and a good smokescreen. Apparently attorney-client privilege isnt a thing anymore. Sweet.

[TheFlyingBoat 913]

2 minutes ago, SmokeyBear1861 said:

What if Mueller is actually going to drain the fuck out of the swamp? What if Comey faked the beef between him and Trump to serve up the criminal politicians with his buddy Mueller and a good smokescreen. Apparently attorney-client privilege isnt a thing anymore. Sweet.

Attorney client privilege is still a thing. However, it isn't, and never has been absolute. See Clark v United States where the crime-fraud exception is defined.

[jimmyjazz 47183]

9 minutes ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

Attorney client privilege is still a thing. However, it isn't, and never has been absolute. See Clark v United States where the crime-fraud exception is defined.

You're interacting with SmokeyBear1861.  Might I suggest a toddler?  You'll have more luck.

[Brian Fantana 6866]

Or perhaps a fence post. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Interesting take

 

[Pig Bellmont 8886]

Judge in NY ordered Cohen to provide list of clients for potential privilege to justify attorney’s claim of “thousands” of privilege communications. Today, Cohen’s attorneys filed a response that argued in single space for 3-4 pages why he shouldn’t have to disclose the name of one person who doesn’t want to be identified. It’s not Trump, obviously, but who did Cohen supposedly represent that now they *really* don’t want the public to know?

PS- prediction that no special master is appointed, but close call. Court will absolutely deny Trump’s attorneys’ request for first review. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Judge in NY ordered Cohen to provide list of clients for potential privilege to justify attorney’s claim of “thousands” of privilege communications. Today, Cohen’s attorneys filed a response that argued in single space for 3-4 pages why he shouldn’t have to disclose the name of one person who doesn’t want to be identified. It’s not Trump, obviously, but who did Cohen supposedly represent that now they *really* don’t want the public to know?

PS- prediction that no special master is appointed, but close call. Court will absolutely deny Trump’s attorneys’ request for first review. 

RUSSIANS

[Pig Bellmont 8886]

37 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

RUSSIANS

I mean, probably, but that seems dumber than recording a bunch of potentially incriminating conversations

[Mojo Hand 4580]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Interesting take

 

What is NY's double jeopardy trap?  The state doesn't allow prosecutions where there have already been federal criminal proceedings? 

[DDD Dad 14648]

What is NY's double jeopardy trap?  The state doesn't allow prosecutions where there have already been federal criminal proceedings? 

You can’t be prosecuted twice for the same offense regardless of whether it is state, federal, or local. There would have to be some other chargeable wrongful acts to justify a second prosecution.

[Pig Bellmont 8886]

It’s not a new theory, but one floated in legal circles: essentially the idea is that Mueller is sharing evidence with NY AG, and they are waiting for the first pardons to bring the state crimes. Maybe some wishful thinking, but it does inspire a little hope 

[TwiceHorn 32078]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

You can’t be prosecuted twice for the same offense regardless of whether it is state, federal, or local. There would have to be some other chargeable wrongful acts to justify a second prosecution.

Au contraire, mon frere.  One may actually be tried twice for the same crime by two different states or a state and the federal government.  It is grotesque, but it is the law.  https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/dual-sovereignty-due-process-and-duplicative-punishment-a-new-solution-to-an-old-problem

However, the Due Process clause may prevent multiple punishments for the same offense.

And it is rarely done because it is so grotesque.

Edited April 16, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Mojo Hand 4580]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Au contraire, mon frere.  One may actually be tried twice for the same crime by two different states or a state and the federal government.  It is grotesque, but it is the law.  https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/dual-sovereignty-due-process-and-duplicative-punishment-a-new-solution-to-an-old-problem

However, the Due Process clause may prevent multiple punishments for the same offense.

I think he's saying that either the NY constitution or NY statute have an additional layer of double jeopardy protection in this context.  (Which I didn't know about).  Hence the speculation about Mueller's forbearance on bringing certain federal claims to avoid the possibility that a Trump pardon would prevent the state charges from going forward.

[DDD Dad 14648]

14 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Au contraire, mon frere.  One may actually be tried twice for the same crime by two different states or a state and the federal government.  It is grotesque, but it is the law.  https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/dual-sovereignty-due-process-and-duplicative-punishment-a-new-solution-to-an-old-problem

I'll qualify my answer with the term, "generally."  Happy?  

Also, from the article, it points out that by violating the statutes of two different sovereigns, a defendant by definition has committed two separate offenses.

I'm not a criminal lawyer and haven't studied the double jeopardy clause since law school, so forgive my flippant and unresearched quick reply.

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by DDD Dad

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Maybe this is the NY statute?

https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/criminal-procedure-law/cpl-sect-40-20.html

CPL § 40.20

2. A person may not be separately prosecuted for two offenses based upon the same act or criminal transaction unless:

(a) The offenses as defined have substantially different elements and the acts establishing one offense are in the main clearly distinguishable from those establishing the other;  or

(b) Each of the offenses as defined contains an element which is not an element of the other, and the statutory provisions defining such offenses are designed to prevent very different kinds of harm or evil;  or

(c) One of such offenses consists of criminal possession of contraband matter and the other offense is one involving the use of such contraband matter, other than a sale thereof;  or

(d) One of the offenses is assault or some other offense resulting in physical injury to a person, and the other offense is one of homicide based upon the death of such person from the same physical injury, and such death occurs after a prosecution for the assault or other non-homicide offense;  or

(e) Each offense involves death, injury, loss or other consequence to a different victim;  or

(f) One of the offenses consists of a violation of a statutory provision of another jurisdiction, which offense has been prosecuted in such other jurisdiction and has there been terminated by a court order expressly founded upon insufficiency of evidence to establish some element of such offense which is not an element of the other offense, defined by the laws of this state;  or

(g) The present prosecution is for a consummated result offense, as defined in subdivision three of section 20.10 , which occurred in this state and the offense was the result of a conspiracy, facilitation or solicitation prosecuted in another state.

(h) One of such offenses is enterprise corruption in violation of section 460.20 of the penal law , racketeering in violation of federal law or any comparable offense pursuant to the law of another state and a separate or subsequent prosecution is not barred by section 40.50 of this article.

(i) One of the offenses consists of a violation of 18 U.S.C. 371 , where the object of the conspiracy is to attempt in any manner to evade or defeat any federal income tax or the payment thereof, or a violation of 26 U.S.C. 7201 , 26 U.S.C. 7202 , 26 U.S.C. 7203 , 26 U.S.C. 7204 , 26 U.S.C. 7205 , 26 U.S.C. 7206 or 26 U.S.C. 7212(A) , where the purpose is to evade or defeat any federal income tax or the payment thereof, and the other offense is committed for the purpose of evading or defeating any New York state or New York city income taxes and is defined in article one hundred fifty-five of the penal law, article one hundred seventy of the penal law, article one hundred seventy-five of the penal law, article thirty-seven of the tax law or chapter forty of title eleven of the administrative code of the city of New York.

[TwiceHorn 32078]

14 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Maybe this is the NY statute?

https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/criminal-procedure-law/cpl-sect-40-20.html

CPL § 40.20

2. A person may not be separately prosecuted for two offenses based upon the same act or criminal transaction unless:

(a) The offenses as defined have substantially different elements and the acts establishing one offense are in the main clearly distinguishable from those establishing the other;  or

(b) Each of the offenses as defined contains an element which is not an element of the other, and the statutory provisions defining such offenses are designed to prevent very different kinds of harm or evil;  or

(c) One of such offenses consists of criminal possession of contraband matter and the other offense is one involving the use of such contraband matter, other than a sale thereof;  or

(d) One of the offenses is assault or some other offense resulting in physical injury to a person, and the other offense is one of homicide based upon the death of such person from the same physical injury, and such death occurs after a prosecution for the assault or other non-homicide offense;  or

(e) Each offense involves death, injury, loss or other consequence to a different victim;  or

(f) One of the offenses consists of a violation of a statutory provision of another jurisdiction, which offense has been prosecuted in such other jurisdiction and has there been terminated by a court order expressly founded upon insufficiency of evidence to establish some element of such offense which is not an element of the other offense, defined by the laws of this state;  or

(g) The present prosecution is for a consummated result offense, as defined in subdivision three of section 20.10 , which occurred in this state and the offense was the result of a conspiracy, facilitation or solicitation prosecuted in another state.

(h) One of such offenses is enterprise corruption in violation of section 460.20 of the penal law , racketeering in violation of federal law or any comparable offense pursuant to the law of another state and a separate or subsequent prosecution is not barred by section 40.50 of this article.

(i) One of the offenses consists of a violation of 18 U.S.C. 371 , where the object of the conspiracy is to attempt in any manner to evade or defeat any federal income tax or the payment thereof, or a violation of 26 U.S.C. 7201 , 26 U.S.C. 7202 , 26 U.S.C. 7203 , 26 U.S.C. 7204 , 26 U.S.C. 7205 , 26 U.S.C. 7206 or 26 U.S.C. 7212(A) , where the purpose is to evade or defeat any federal income tax or the payment thereof, and the other offense is committed for the purpose of evading or defeating any New York state or New York city income taxes and is defined in article one hundred fifty-five of the penal law, article one hundred seventy of the penal law, article one hundred seventy-five of the penal law, article thirty-seven of the tax law or chapter forty of title eleven of the administrative code of the city of New York.

I assume that would apply only to a pardon after jeopardy attached? 

[TwiceHorn 32078]

25 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I'll qualify my answer with the term, "generally."  Happy?  

Also, from the article, it points out that by violating the statutes of two different sovereigns, a defendant by definition has committed two separate offenses.

I'm not a criminal lawyer and haven't studied the double jeopardy clause since law school, so forgive my flippant and unresearched quick reply.

 

Not really trying to show you up despite the Bartism.  Just didn't want to leave the wrong impression with the legal unwashed.

[BrickHorn 18447]

16 hours ago, SmokeyBear1861 said:

Apparently attorney-client privilege isnt a thing anymore. Sweet.

You received your law degree from Trump U, right?

Edited April 16, 2018 by BrickHorn

[DDD Dad 14648]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not really trying to show you up despite the Bartism.  Just didn't want to leave the wrong impression with the legal unwashed.

Thank you for the clarification.  I realize my reply was classic internet message board deflection.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3871]

11 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You received your law degree from Trump U, right?

[relapse98 634]

Attorney client privilege is still a thing. However, it isn't, and never has been absolute. See Clark v United States where the crime-fraud exception is defined.

He knows. It's been covered here a hundred times. He's just parroting what he hears and doesn't want to listen to any opposing thought.

Recommendation - use ignore.

[Dutchrudder 11243]

3 hours ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Judge in NY ordered Cohen to provide list of clients for potential privilege to justify attorney’s claim of “thousands” of privilege communications. Today, Cohen’s attorneys filed a response that argued in single space for 3-4 pages why he shouldn’t have to disclose the name of one person who doesn’t want to be identified. It’s not Trump, obviously, but who did Cohen supposedly represent that now they *really* don’t want the public to know?

PS- prediction that no special master is appointed, but close call. Court will absolutely deny Trump’s attorneys’ request for first review. 

Oops, other thread is covering this. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Dutchrudder

[DDD Dad 14648]

4 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

Rumor is it's Sean Hannity

Confirmed.  Not a rumor.  Hannity is talking about it on his radio show.  Tweets from reporters in the courtroom broke the story.

There's discussion on this in the Cohen thread.

[Pods 7637]

Just heard on radio, Trump is stalling sanctions against Russia. He's not comfortable with the severity of the sanctions and is pissed that we kicked out more diplomats than France and Germany did. 

[retread 2951]

^ Totally normal and patriotic

[jimmyjazz 47183]

13 minutes ago, Pods said:

Just heard on radio, Trump is stalling sanctions against Russia. He's not comfortable with the severity of the sanctions and is pissed that we kicked out more diplomats than France and Germany did. 

As if we actually reduced the number of Russian diplomats in the US.

 

[Pods 7637]

Yeah, that's the crazy part. It's a revolving door and they'll let others right back in. He's flipping his shit to neuter a totally symbolic gesture. If there was any doubt he is being blackmailed, that should erase it. 

[Biff Tannen 46165]

2 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

This right here should have been the point where even the "poorly educated" should have realized, oh, this guy might not have my best interests in mind.

[retread 2951]

[Mojo Hand 4580]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

This right here should have been the point where even the "poorly educated" should have realized, oh, this guy might not have my best interests in mind.

[Brisketexan 106890]

Oh, and if we hadn't already cemented it in place, "Stupid Watergate" really is perfect for this band of clowns.  This is absolutely hysterical.  A blindfolded man in a dildo factory couldn't trip over dicks at the rate these guys have achieved.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Brisketexan