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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
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15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The Democrats are playing this exactly right. 

Yes, if we're concentrating on how to play this.  But, meanwhile, the rule of law is being eviscerated, we're putting babies in prison camps, and fuck knows what sort of voter suppression tactics/foreign influence will be at play in the 2020 election.  But, hey the GOP's unpopular so let's party.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19536

Posted
Posted
Just now, lemonlime said:

Yes, if we're concentrating on how to play this.  But, meanwhile, the rule of law is being eviscerated, we're putting babies in prison camps, and fuck knows what sort of voter suppression tactics/foreign influence will be at play in the 2020 election.  But, hey the GOP's unpopular so let's party.

The rule of law is preventing Trump from instituting most of what he's trying to do. He's losing court cases at a historic clip, particularly with regard to the border.

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

The rule of law is preventing Trump from instituting most of what he's trying to do. He's losing court cases at a historic clip, particularly with regard to the border.

What do you think's going to happen when these cases get to the Kavanaugh SCOTUS?  Also, he's losing cases, but he's ignoring the decisions with regard to the border.  

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19536

Posted
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Just now, lemonlime said:

What do you think's going to happen when these cases get to the Kavanaugh SCOTUS?  Also, he's losing cases, but he's ignoring the decisions with regard to the border.  

He's ignoring them. The people at the border are not. They are ignoring the president.

Also, many of these cases will never make it to the Supreme Court because they won't take them. If they do, then what they say is the rule of law by definition. 

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

He's ignoring them. The people at the border are not. They are ignoring the president.

Also, many of these cases will never make it to the Supreme Court because they won't take them. If they do, then what they say is the rule of law by definition. 

Good to know Dred Scot and Korematsu are rule of law.  Just look at what happened with the Muslim ban, which many (all?) trial courts found to be unconstitutional and SCOTUS found to be okay.  And that was pre-Kavanaugh.  

Meanwhile, lives are being ruined.  

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19536

Posted
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4 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Good to know Dred Scot and Korematsu are rule of law.  Just look at what happened with the Muslim ban, which many (all?) trial courts found to be unconstitutional and SCOTUS found to be okay.  And that was pre-Kavanaugh.  

Meanwhile, lives are being ruined.  

Lives can be ruined by following the law, that is very true, which is why the rule of law isn't always a panacea. 

Slavery was legal, after all.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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Normal politicians see the public bureaucracy as an arm of their power. Autocrats see it as interference, with the "threat" of transparency, checks & balances, and leaks.

Bureaucracy and diffuse institutional power have drawbacks of bloat, gridlock, etc. But it is also a strategic strength that allows expertise & planning to span multiple administrations without too much partisan whipsawing.

The immediate danger is Trump's family & loyalists accruing more power with less accountability. They will use this to enrich themselves & their allies. Long term, it invites the next admin keep that power instead of building the institutions back up.

America & the world cannot afford the uncertainty of "anti-NATO" & "pro-NATO" admins, for example. If there is no reliable policy based on principles, allies & enemies alike will plan on US weakness, inviting catastrophe.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19536

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3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Normal politicians see the public bureaucracy as an arm of their power. Autocrats see it as interference, with the "threat" of transparency, checks & balances, and leaks.

Bureaucracy and diffuse institutional power have drawbacks of bloat, gridlock, etc. But it is also a strategic strength that allows expertise & planning to span multiple administrations without too much partisan whipsawing.

The immediate danger is Trump's family & loyalists accruing more power with less accountability. They will use this to enrich themselves & their allies. Long term, it invites the next admin keep that power instead of building the institutions back up.

America & the world cannot afford the uncertainty of "anti-NATO" & "pro-NATO" admins, for example. If there is no reliable policy based on principles, allies & enemies alike will plan on US weakness, inviting catastrophe.

Seems like 2020 should be a lay up for Democrats.

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

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17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Lives can be ruined by following the law, that is very true, which is why the rule of law isn't always a panacea. 

Slavery was legal, after all.

Trump's sycophants are doing many horrible things, including decimating rule of law (eg. installing trump family, commandeering federal employees to act as trump's personal counsel, using trump properties as a de facto arm of the government to extort money from foreign governments, and so on).   That's separate from a SCOTUS that is rendering horrible decisions that destroy people's lives, including, say, the Dred Scot decision.   The dems are just sitting back while all this is going on, and counting on winning the 2020 election, as though (a) there will be a free and fair election and (b) people's lives aren't being destroyed in the interim even if there is.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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After Barr subcommittee meeting today:

This is an important takeaway from Barr's first public appearance since he dropped his 4 page memo that will help focus subsequent questioning re an AG cover-up beginning tomorrow in a Senate hearing with Barr.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19536

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35 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Trump's sycophants are doing many horrible things, including decimating rule of law (eg. installing trump family, commandeering federal employees to act as trump's personal counsel, using trump properties as a de facto arm of the government to extort money from foreign governments, and so on).   That's separate from a SCOTUS that is rendering horrible decisions that destroy people's lives, including, say, the Dred Scot decision.   The dems are just sitting back while all this is going on, and counting on winning the 2020 election, as though (a) there will be a free and fair election and (b) people's lives aren't being destroyed in the interim even if there is.

This simply is not true. At all.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

This simply is not true. At all.

 I agree.  You have to know that a lot moving forward will be determined by the courts.  There is a procedure involved.  TwiceHorn has laid it out from a standpoint of Barr going by the book re redactions.  DC Circuit ruled last Friday on grand jury materials requiring a "judicial proceeding" (impeachment) to release to Congress (as opposed to oversight function).  Nadler is waiting to see what Barr's redactions actually look like (we'll know likely within a week) before going to the courts with a subpoena arguing for the the whole enchilada.  If Barr's letter said Mueller report did not exonerate Trump on obstruction, to what extent will redactions blind Congress to making a determination?  I'd think Nadler should first see to buttress his case before heading straight to the courts. 

Meanwhile Barr risks hanging himself by appearing to possibly corruptly withhold access to the report.  Or making redactions under some threat from or coordination with the WH.  This is just now getting drawn today and tomorrow with AG testimony and similarly could possibly be used when approaching the courts.  Additionally we learned last Thursday that Michael Cohen may be willing to throw Trump and the RNC under the bus before Congress to avoid the prospect of spending a very long time in prison.  The revelations and timing of that should be considered for being woven into the larger process for momentum.

All of this requires building a case with NO disqualifying steps - something unfamiliar to R's.  We're accustomed to R's grandstanding rabble and series of baseless accusations in the seemingly unending absence of prosecutorial substance.  Perhaps credit R's for their infinite capacity to make something out of nothing, but don't look to them to show what it means to not fuck it up when the table is set.  The stakes have never been higher.

 

Edited by triplehorn
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notre dame joe

notre dame joe 205

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On 4/4/2019 at 6:44 AM, David Dennison said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Harvard Man said:

I want an impeachment. I don't care how the Senate ultimately votes -- I want the truth.

You can't handle the truth.

8 hours ago, lemonlime said:

What do you think's going to happen when these cases get to the Kavanaugh SCOTUS?    

The one Trump pledged to pack with more judges?  Depends how many of the 14 get confirmed

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 32077

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, triplehorn said:

 I agree.  You have to know that a lot moving forward will be determined by the courts.  There is a procedure involved.  TwiceHorn has laid it out from a standpoint of Barr going by the book re redactions.  DC Circuit ruled last Friday on grand jury materials requiring a "judicial proceeding" (impeachment) to release to Congress (as opposed to oversight function).  Nadler is waiting to see what Barr's redactions actually look like (we'll know likely within a week) before going to the courts with a subpoena arguing for the the whole enchilada.  If Barr's letter said Mueller report did not exonerate Trump on obstruction, to what extent will redactions blind Congress to making a determination?  I'd think Nadler should first see to buttress his case before heading straight to the courts. 

Meanwhile Barr risks hanging himself by appearing to possibly corruptly withhold access to the report.  Or making redactions under some threat from or coordination with the WH.  This is just now getting drawn today and tomorrow with AG testimony and similarly could possibly be used when approaching the courts.  Additionally we learned last Thursday that Michael Cohen may be willing to throw Trump and the RNC under the bus before Congress to avoid the prospect of spending a very long time in prison.  The revelations and timing of that should be considered for being woven into the larger process for momentum.

All of this requires building a case with NO disqualifying steps - something unfamiliar to R's.  We're accustomed to R's grandstanding rabble and series of baseless accusations in the seemingly unending absence of prosecutorial substance.  Perhaps credit R's for their infinite capacity to make something out of nothing, but don't look to them to show what it means to not fuck it up when the table is set.  The stakes have never been higher.

 

Actually, to be strictly by the book, the McKeever case addressed only release of grand jury information to the public, not to Congress.  It did affirm that there is no general ability or inherent ability of a district court, at least in the DC Circuit, to release grand jury information apart from the circumstances spelled out in Fed. R. Crim. Pro. 6, which would include an ongoing or contemplated judicial proceeding (or impeachment).  That would seem to extend to Congress, but you never know.  One thing that decision did do is effectively overrule Sirica's decision to give "the Road Map" to the Watergate or Judiciary Committee, because it was based on a district court's inherent power to do so and not circumstances laid out in Rule 6.

Honestly, I don't see grand jury information as being the stumbling block. Because Mueller was never going to indict Trump, I don't think he presented much to the GJ on him.  It is possible that another grand jury, or another USAO using his grand jury, has heard a bunch of stuff on family and associates, but that's likely to be covered as much by "ongoing investigation" as grand jury information.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 32077

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Posted

Also, a congressional subpoena is not the thermonuclear weapon of compulsion and disclosure that some of you seem to think it is.  The enforcement route is circuitous and uncertain, particularly if the witness has any quasi legitimate ground for refusing to testify or for withholding documents.

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Harvard Man

Harvard Man 9

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Posted

Absolutely! Let's arrest Mueller.

Teach him to respectfully decline to prosecute according to DOJ policy. Don't wanna get arrested Rob!?? Then be President. 

Utilize Russian interference wantonly and liberally. It works. And do not notify the FBI -- they'll either be investigated and arrested later or they'll do nothing in regards to presidential and foreign malfeasance ever again.

This is how you steal elections in perpetuity.

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Harvard Man

Harvard Man 9

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Barr will issue his findings in a few months I’m sure. 

Chill effect against law and order. 

Don't ever bitch about illegal immigration again. The cops are the real bad guys. Fucking coup attempt by the boys in blue.

Public enemy #1 is now the guy responsible for determining the public enemy BCS rankings.

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