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The Robert Mueller Investigation

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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TornACL

TornACL 7792

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4 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Keep dreaming up your dystopian fantasies about how I will be gassed or taken to a concentration camp. Maybe you can make them into a short story series and post them here. Icono gets deported (even though he was born here), Icono in a concentration camp, the final solution to deal with Icono.

Hey, Racist Derka, why don't you shut the fuck up for a few minutes. 

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Goredho
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Just to make sure I have the alternative facts straight...  Our government -- but I'm guessing only the deep state part of it --- is now guilty of torturing a poor, naive Russian exchange student who

Incredulity
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liberals suddenly being terrified of Russia and manic for election integrity is just pure comedy gold.

Chooky
Chooky

I don't believe for a moment that any of this is entertaining to you.  I think it gives you a bit of anxiety knowing that your best weapon against a group who you despise is a bumbling fraud as a busi

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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

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Posted
5 minutes ago, elguapo said:

Go fuck yourself dumb cunt. He literally has put in place a travel ban for Iran. If it were solely up to him no one from Muslim majority or other “shithole” countries would be allowed to immigrate here permanently.

 

But you’re here already so fuck all those other poor bastards right?

Not everyone in the world who wants to come here should be able to do so. Unless you’re Farhad Manjoo, even those on the left would agree otherwise we’d have tens of millions of people headed our way. The bullshit of us having to welcome every tired and poor schmuck is over. 

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troph

troph 25231

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If you read only one thing from this report it needs to be the four points at the beginning of volume 2, pages 1-2. Summary: we won’t conclude trump obstructed justice because we cannot prosecute a sitting president but if he didn’t obstruct justice we would tell you...

... crickets chirping.

Enter Trump and Barr... hahah he didn’t say we obstructed justice! Yes!! Innocent!!

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Enchubben

Enchubben 5600

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3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Since we know there won’t be impeachment cause GOP, the game shifts to Dems using the report, hearings, etc. to rub the GOP’s face in this until the election. 

I think that’s right. Dems will pick apart small nuanced items and it will be a major focus during the election, regardless of nominee, hoping to energize the democrats who stayed at home last election. Will probably work to an extent.

On the other hand, republicans will control the narrative on a 2 year collusion/conspiracy investigation that did not result in any charges on Trump. This will likely revitalize the republican voters who would otherwise find Trump’s behavior unbecoming.

I think if the Democrats swing far left with their nominee and they keep this up without any actual charges,  you’re looking at another 4 years of Trump. At this point democrats and the media are too invested in Russia/Mueller report to back down, and Republicans are too invested in Trump to move on. Will be interesting to watch.

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troph

troph 25231

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There were real crimes committed here. Yes politics will dominate but my hope for our country is impeachment and knowing no conviction he’s voted out and the prosecuted for obstruction and for RICO and other financial crimes.

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28931

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5 minutes ago, troph said:

If you read only one thing from this report it needs to be the four points at the beginning of volume 2, pages 1-2. Summary: we won’t conclude trump obstructed justice because we cannot prosecute a sitting president but if he didn’t obstruct justice we would tell you...

... crickets chirping.

Enter Trump and Barr... hahah he didn’t say we obstructed justice! Yes!! Innocent!!

What a cop out. Just fucking say he obstructed justice and, if he wasn't president, he'd be indicted. 

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19554

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9 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Not everyone in the world who wants to come here should be able to do so. Unless you’re Farhad Manjoo, even those on the left would agree otherwise we’d have tens of millions of people headed our way. The bullshit of us having to welcome every tired and poor schmuck is over. 

Lucky for you your parents got in before then.

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troph

troph 25231

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What a cop out. Just fucking say he obstructed justice and, if he wasn't president, he'd be indicted. 

I disagree. He’s a company man. The OLC opinion governs the DOJ and he said to draw a conclusion would be to try and convict with out a trial depriving him of his right to confront his accusers. It’s actually taking a very strict stance on respecting the constitutional rights of the man. It’s quite a breath of fresh air. Now if everyone would follow his lead we would move to impeachment and conviction.

What you want is a short cut because virtually no one will respect and adhere to the process laid out in the constitution.
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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

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4 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

I think that’s right. Dems will pick apart small nuanced items and it will be a major focus during the election, regardless of nominee, hoping to energize the democrats who stayed at home last election. Will probably work to an extent.

On the other hand, republicans will control the narrative on a 2 year collusion/conspiracy investigation that did not result in any charges on Trump. This will likely revitalize the republican voters who would otherwise find Trump’s behavior unbecoming.

I think if the Democrats swing far left with their nominee and they keep this up without any actual charges,  you’re looking at another 4 years of Trump. At this point democrats and the media are too invested in Russia/Mueller report to back down, and Republicans are too invested in Trump to move on. Will be interesting to watch.

I was only really referring to the conspiracy with Russians with the Dems using until election. The obstruction item is a separate deal that should also be vetted and may be labeled a crime. Combine that with Individual 1’s campaign finance violations there me be several “criminal” acts by POTUS. 

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TexArcher

TexArcher 39074

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42 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

We all acknowledge that he is an undisciplined, loudmouth, moron. I’m looking forward to the next generation where we’ll hopefully find a smarter candidate. My hope is Tucker in 2024. 

Tucker Carlson is smarter than Donald Trump, but that's only because everyone is smarter than Donald Trump.  And Tucker Carlson is a racist and a professional liar.  They're cut from the same cloth.

Couldn't you at least hope for a decent human being in 2024?

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TexArcher

TexArcher 39074

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14 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

The bullshit of us having to welcome every tired and poor schmuck is over. 

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, but not the schmucks, or the brown ones, or the ones who don't believe in the baby Jesus, or the ones who won't vote for us because they're not old white men.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 32083

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8 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

 


My overall point is not that redactions will be the end, but other indictments, hearings referenced will expose more liars in this conspiracy. The boy scouts expose Trump’s illegal orders. The scum carry them out, but lie and destroy evidence. That’s the Roy Cohn way.

That’s why at this point there’s not clear and convincing criminal evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of a criminal conspiracy. You only hear honest testimony from the Boy Scouts at this point.

Fair enough.  As I mentioned, it's pretty obvious that a lot of the HOM redactions are related to the CURRENT two "Russian" indictments, as opposed to ongoing, unindicted investigations of say Jr.  To me, that made it harder to figure out educated guesses on what other investigations might be happening.  In one instance, though, I got the sense that a redaction covered some information about an ongoing investigation of wikileaks.

However, I suspect that any other ongoing investigations are not Russia "collusion" related, at all, or Mueller would still be investigating. 

I don't think theres much more report-related that's going to come out and make Trump look worse.  His kids might get indicted, though, which might set off another obstruction spasm.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Tucker Carlson is smarter than Donald Trump, but that's only because everyone is smarter than Donald Trump.  And Tucker Carlson is a racist and a professional liar.  They're cut from the same cloth.
Couldn't you at least hope for a decent human being in 2024?
Decent human beings don't hold the policy positions that he supports, so that won't happen.
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GRHorn

GRHorn 105

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12 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

 

Wtf was your point?

My point was the President and his campaign has been cleared, by Mueller, of conspiracy and coordination (collusion) with Russians. That was the impetus for the investigation. Y’all will continue to get worked up and scratching away saying there’s something big there, but it’s been investigated.

 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28931

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32 minutes ago, troph said:


I disagree. He’s a company man. The OLC opinion governs the DOJ and he said to draw a conclusion would be to try and convict with out a trial depriving him of his right to confront his accusers. It’s actually taking a very strict stance on respecting the constitutional rights of the man. It’s quite a breath of fresh air. Now if everyone would follow his lead we would move to impeachment and conviction.

What you want is a short cut because virtually no one will respect and adhere to the process laid out in the constitution.

I get the point but the language is pretty wishy-washy. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 32083

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38 minutes ago, troph said:


I disagree. He’s a company man. The OLC opinion governs the DOJ and he said to draw a conclusion would be to try and convict with out a trial depriving him of his right to confront his accusers. It’s actually taking a very strict stance on respecting the constitutional rights of the man. It’s quite a breath of fresh air. Now if everyone would follow his lead we would move to impeachment and conviction.

What you want is a short cut because virtually no one will respect and adhere to the process laid out in the constitution.

Nicely said.  I have been mentally sniffing around this sort of conclusion, but hadn't articulated it yet.  People, including me, want him to bail out a Congress that lacks the political will to remove him.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

My point was the President and his campaign has been cleared, by Mueller, of conspiracy and coordination (collusion) with Russians. That was the impetus for the investigation. Y’all will continue to get worked up and scratching away saying there’s something big there, but it’s been investigated.

 

 

This about the only definitive thing I'd take away, there was no intentional/willfull collusion with the Russians, but I'm sure the Surly cabal will refute that as well (some  pretty much already have).

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bolverk

bolverk 30344

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10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

This about the only definitive thing I'd take away, there was no intentional/willfull collusion with the Russians, but I'm sure the Surly cabal will refute that as well (some  pretty much already have).

re·fute
/rəˈfyo͞ot/
verb
prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.

ahem

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9960

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1 hour ago, troph said:

If you read only one thing from this report it needs to be the four points at the beginning of volume 2, pages 1-2. Summary: we won’t conclude trump obstructed justice because we cannot prosecute a sitting president but if he didn’t obstruct justice we would tell you...

... crickets chirping.

Enter Trump and Barr... hahah he didn’t say we obstructed justice! Yes!! Innocent!!

yes yes, disregard that whole Russian collusion nothing burger (the point of the investigation)

....crickets chirping

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TexArcher

TexArcher 39074

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12 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

It's weird how the banana republicans are claiming that the Mueller report was a huge success for Trump, yet Trump & Co. are all over the airwaves attacking the report and telling people not to read it.  

Well, if they don't read it, they'll believe whatever Fox News tells them it says, as it was with the ACA, the Trump tax cuts, etc.  

It's really shocking how much one organization has dumbed down this country.

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horncyclist

horncyclist 1391

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11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

This about the only definitive thing I'd take away, there was no intentional/willfull collusion with the Russians, but I'm sure the Surly cabal will refute that as well (some  pretty much already have).

in my mind, continuing to accept overtures and solicit help from Russia, knowing they were actively trying to interfere in the election, plus the various pro-Russia policies Trump has pushed is enough to establish something deeply wrong and deserving of removal of Trump from office. You can call it whatever you want-- collusion, tacit cooperation, willful blindness, negligence in failing to report or deter the actions of Russia. If the conduct was found to not be illegal because we do not have laws addressing that specific conduct, then we need to pass new laws to address it in the future. It is wrong, undemocratic, and unamerican, even it is not illegal today.

Moreover, I think the report caveats the findings of its investigation and in no way rules out the possibility of a broader conspiracy. We still do not know what Trump and Putin have discussed in their private meetings. Is there proof of an agreement there? What about all the lies to cover this up? What about obstructing an investigation designed to get to the bottom of the greatest attack on democracy in history? I am firmly in the impeachment camp, call it what it is: high crimes and misdemeanors. Let the traitorous republicans defend it. 

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BrickHorn

BrickHorn 18447

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17 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

This about the only definitive thing I'd take away, there was no intentional/willfull collusion with the Russians, but I'm sure the Surly cabal will refute that as well (some  pretty much already have).

Yeah, you have the whole burden of proof thing backwards.  What the report established, definitively, is: the Russians engaged in a conspiracy to rig the election in favor of Trump; Trump and his campaign knew about that in advance and believed Russia’s efforts would benefit Trump; Trump and his subordinates were at least friendly to the idea of cooperation; high-ranking Trump campaign members met with Russia to discuss one of Russia’s two election rigging operations; Trump and his campaign did nothing to stop or report Russia’s activities; Trump and his administration impeded efforts to investigate Russia’s criminal attack on our democracy by lying, refusing interviews, destroying emails, etc.

What the report was unable to establish is that anyone on the Trump team was aware they were aiding a criminal act.  That is not tantamount, however, to Mueller establishing, proving, or concluding that Trump did not have the requisite intent.  The investigators just could not establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Trump DID have that intent.

Trump escaped by the skin of his teeth here. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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I’m no lawyer but after reading the details of Volume 2, it looks like there might be sufficient evidence to establish a criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice between Trump and his personal  lawyers.   

My favorite (least favorite) line in Volume 2 is,

“The President’s efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful.”

This statement is some deceptive bullshit.  

How this statement reads to me is, “other than the few successful times the president obstructed justice, none of his efforts were successful. Also, the successful efforts to obstruct justice wouldn’t be in this report because they were successful.  

Acts like appointing your own prosecutor to exonerate you from your crimes after firing the AG that wouldn’t obstruct justice for you aren’t in this report because this investigation was overseen and closed by the Attorney General that was appointed precisely to obstruct justice.

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8887

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So here are facts:

Trump’s campaign manager shared internal polling data *and strategy to win midwestern states* with a Russian intelligence officer. 

Trump’s campaign manager, son, and son in law took an in person meeting with Russian officials with the intent to obtain non public information on Clinton. 

Trump’s son coordinated and disseminated Russian talking points and information as communicated through Wikileaks. Trump’s son even used a stolen password to research a potentially damaging political action committee.

Trump directed his National Security Advisor to obtain information illegally stolen by Russian intelligence. 

Trump ordered subordinates to commit federal crimes. 

At least on 10 separate instances Trump attempted to impede or stop the investigation into his conduct. 

In violation of federal law, Trump paid money *from the White House* to his lawyer for successfully burying a scandal before the election about how Trump cheated on his 3rd wife with a porn star, while his wife was home with a newborn baby. 

Here’s my take:

If this conduct isn’t impeachable, then nothing is. I simply don’t agree that the American people are willing to tolerate all of this behavior or that there is any world where he will be re-elected. A majority of people didn’t support Nixon’s impeachment until the trial began and evidence was revealed to the American people. The dems need balls and to draft articles of impeachment.  Not to mention how foreign money paid to the President  is influencing US foreign policy. Fuck every fucking Republican politician or voter who ever expressed concerns about corruption in government. 

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'stache

'stache 22145

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25 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

This about the only definitive thing I'd take away, there was no intentional/willfull collusion with the Russians, but I'm sure the Surly cabal will refute that as well (some  pretty much already have).

So you're totally cool that an enemy of our country wanted your guy elected, and that your guy egged them on publicly, and praised the third party that leaked classified documents? Cool.

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Captainant

Captainant 28565

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

So here are facts:

Trump’s campaign manager shared internal polling data *and strategy to win midwestern states* with a Russian intelligence officer. 

Trump’s campaign manager, son, and son in law took an in person meeting with Russian officials with the intent to obtain non public information on Clinton. 

Trump’s son coordinated and disseminated Russian talking points and information as communicated through Wikileaks. Trump’s son even used a stolen password to research a potentially damaging political action committee.

Trump directed his National Security Advisor to obtain information illegally stolen by Russian intelligence. 

Trump ordered subordinates to commit federal crimes. 

At least on 10 separate instances Trump attempted to impede or stop the investigation into his conduct. 

In violation of federal law, Trump paid money *from the White House* to his lawyer for successfully burying a scandal before the election about how Trump cheated on his 3rd wife with a porn star, while his wife was home with a newborn baby. 

Here’s my take:

If this conduct isn’t impeachable, then nothing is. I simply don’t agree that the American people are willing to tolerate all of this behavior or that there is any world where he will be re-elected. A majority of people didn’t support Nixon’s impeachment until the trial began and evidence was revealed to the American people. The dems need balls and to draft articles of impeachment.  Not to mention how foreign money paid to the President  is influencing US foreign policy. Fuck every fucking Republican politician or voter who ever expressed concerns about corruption in government. 

fucking say it again for the people in the back

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 32083

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34 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I get the point but the language is pretty wishy-washy. 

I think one of the things is that, without the prohibition of indictment, there would have been a "political" calculation on whether to charge, involving at least the criminal DAG, and probably the AG himself.  Things like "it's a close case, high profile, can we stand to lose it?  Can we stand to win it"?  Things like that that weren't available to Mueller, per se, and that he regarded as above his pay grade and in any event not something you want to expose to public scrutiny, even in a lower profile case than this.

The whole thing kind of left him in the lurch.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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Posted
11 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

So here are facts:

Trump’s campaign manager shared internal polling data *and strategy to win midwestern states* with a Russian intelligence officer. 

lol the very first "fact" in your list of facts is nonfactual.  Kilimnik is not a Russian intelligence officer.  

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Gap03

Gap03 3389

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13 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

What the report was unable to establish is that anyone on the Trump team was aware they were aiding a criminal act.  That is not tantamount, however, to Mueller establishing, proving, or concluding that Trump did not have the requisite intent.  The investigators just could not establish, beyond a reasonable doubt after what appears to have been a metric shit-ton of obstruction by Trump and his team, that Trump DID have that intent . 

Just a modest refinement ...

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8887

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lol the very first "fact" in your list of facts is nonfactual.  Kilimnik is not a Russian intelligence officer.  

Can you credibly dispute his ties to Russian intelligence?  Fuck off troll

Also, great defense. “HA the campaign manager only shared campaign strategy and proprietary data with a foreigner notably tied to Russian intelligence, he wasn’t an officer!” Ok cool. We’re all good then. 

Edited by Pig Bellmont
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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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Posted
1 minute ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Can you credibly dispute his ties to Russian intelligence?  Fuck off troll

lol now it's trolling to point out obvious factual inaccuracies.  The evidence cited in the report of ties between Kilimnik and Russian intelligence includes such devastating items as Kilimnik obtaining a visa to travel to the US in 1997 with a Russian diplomatic passport and that he was once a translator in the Russian army.

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