The Robert Mueller Investigation

[ChiTownDoc 21,098]

Just now, 'stache said:

It's totally fine to you that the press secretary lied to the American public? So much damning stuff, and your "team" just doesn't give a shit.

Bro, cut Chrispy some slack.  He has to spout off online.  He’s too scared to espouse these views in public, lest some scary brown person refashion his Hanes undies into a set of ear muffs.  Let him gloat a little in here.  It’s a scary real world out there.  

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

11 hours ago, SpiralOut said:

Well they used to have them.  Ya know, because Bill Clinton literally bought and paid to keep Yeltsin as the Russian president.  Dude's numbers were completely in the tank.  Everyone knew he was going to get crushed.  Then ol' Slick Willy stepped in with a boatload of cash so Yeltsin could start paying people off and, wow, he magically won by a narrow margin!

God damn, the stupid, it burns.

I can sleep at night knowing that Clinton brokered a loan for the most pro-Western Russian candidate.  That's light years from sucking off and being the lackey of a decidedly anti-Western authoritarian who is currently doing everything he can to undermine world order.

Seriously, man.  Learn some fucking history.

[American Swindle 102]

12 hours ago, Michael Knight said:

What elections do you think Russia has?

Wasn't it Obama that criticized Romney's saber rattling towards Russia in the Presidential debates with something to the effect of "Hey Romney, 1997 called and it want's their foreign policy back!" ???

 

The Left supported this idea then and Obama seemed not to be worried about them as a threat then.  Now, you could say they've been interfering in our elections, but you are an ignoramus if somehow you think the US has the moral high ground when we've in fact been meddling in other country's affairs since the inception of the CIA under president Truman (National Security Act).  The CIA wasn't just an intelligence gathering operation, but pushed for more overt operations.  It's already been highlighted that we overthrew the elected Prime Minister of Iran in the 50's Mohammad Mosaddegh.  We then instilled the Shah in cooperation with the British (they were being kicked out) as they wanted a foot there for oil.  Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a BRUTAL AND OPPRESSIVE DICTATOR INSTALLED BY THE CIA THAT KILLED NORMAL EVERYDAY FOLKS IN IRAN.  

 

The bigger issue to all of this that I believe many are too tranquilized by the Mueller Report to  see is that we have been debased into a NATIONAL SECURITY STATE.  If the inteligence agencies that overthrow elected leaders across the world are found to have been complicit in the deliberate attempt to overthrow the President of the United States, then this SETS A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT THAT COULD POTENTIALLY END UP OVERTHROWING BERNIE SANDERS IF HE WINS IN 2020. 

This same apparatus could one day decide Bernie's ideas are too dangerous and that he's a Russian stooge.  What then?  Oh, well since we aren't holding the intelligence community accountable for what I think is blatant collusion, then we do not have a limited Republic for which our country was founded on, but a national security state.  

See the forest for the trees guys, no matter how much you despise Trump.  

['stache 21,770]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

God damn, the stupid, it burns.

I can sleep at night knowing that Clinton brokered a loan for the most pro-Western Russian candidate.  That's light years from sucking off and being the lackey of a decidedly anti-Western authoritarian who is currently doing everything he can to undermine world order.

Seriously, man.  Learn some fucking history.

learnin' is for fags

[David Dennison 18,655]

27 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

It seems Surly is at the bargaining stage of grief. 

It seems like the right is in denial.

[Anastasis 23,394]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

God damn, the stupid, it burns.

 I can sleep at night knowing that Clinton brokered a loan for the most pro-Western Russian candidate.  That's light years from sucking off and being the lackey of a decidedly anti-Western authoritarian who is currently doing everything he can to undermine world order.

 Seriously, man.  Learn some fucking history.

Clinton influenced Russian election to prop up Yeltsin who elevated Putin who influenced American election of Clinton with posts on twitter.

What a fucking world. 

[Anastasis 23,394]

3 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

See the forest for the trees guys, no matter how much you despise Trump.  

Shut the fuck up trumpkin.

[Anastasis 23,394]

And go learn some history while you shut the fuck up. 

[Gap03 3,284]

11 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lol now it's trolling to point out obvious factual inaccuracies.  The evidence cited in the report of ties between Kilimnik and Russian intelligence includes such devastating items as Kilimnik obtaining a visa to travel to the US in 1997 with a Russian diplomatic passport and that he was once a translator in the Russian army.

The Report describes Kilimnik as "a longtime Manafort employee who previously ran Manafort's office in Kiev and who the FBI assesses to have ties to Russian intelligence." It also notes earlier that:

Quote

For more than the past year, the FBI also embedded personnel at the Office who did not work on the Special Counsel's investigation, but whose purpose was to review the results of the investigation and to send-in writing-summaries of foreign intelligence and counterintelligence information to FBIHQ and FBI Field Offices. Those communications and other correspondence between the Office and the FBI contain information derived from the investigation, not all of which is contained in this Volume. This Volume is a summary. It contains, in the Office's judgment, that information necessary to account for the Special Counsel's prosecution and declination decisions and to describe the investigation's main factual results. 

I think it's pretty clear that the foreign intel / counterintelligence data supports the stated conclusion about Kilimnik's ties to Russian intelligence, but that Mueller was not inclined to burn assets to connect the dots in the Report.

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

11 hours ago, troph said:

just finished the Don Jr meeting to get dirt on HRC... it's like a terrible adam sandler comedy.  it's all there dirt on HRC here it comes.  nope.  just adoptions and she flew from Moscow to NYC for a twenty minute meeting to bitch about sanctions for the little Russian orphans.  it's bizzaro people. 

You're gonna have to flesh that out. 

[sidis 9,743]

6 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

It's already been highlighted that we overthrew the elected Prime Minister of Iran in the 50's Mohammad Mosaddegh.  We then instilled the Shah in cooperation with the British (they were being kicked out) as they wanted a foot there for oil.  Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a BRUTAL AND OPPRESSIVE DICTATOR INSTALLED BY THE CIA THAT KILLED NORMAL EVERYDAY FOLKS IN IRAN.   

your move, iconoclast.

popcorn

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Clinton influenced Russian election to prop up Yeltsin who elevated Putin who influenced American election of Clinton with posts on twitter.

What a fucking world. 

And took illegal contributions from Chinese nationals. The left backed his play hook line and sinker then...  Clintons defense... look we were facing a juggernaut from the republicans.. what he didn't say, (but what he did):  I'd have done anything to defeat them).

Does not excuse Trump for anything he did, but damn sure shows the democrats for the hypocrites they are.

[Fozzz 152]

Did you look at the evidence cited in the report as supporting the FBI's assessment re Kilimnik?  It's fucking laughable.

 

 

[American Swindle 102]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Shut the fuck up trumpkin.

I support losers and conspiracy theorists only

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

And go learn some history while you shut the fuck up. 

I got the best history lessons from high school and UT of Austin so I'm like a fountain of knowledge drawn from all the correct memory holes.  

[Anastasis 23,394]

1 minute ago, American Swindle said:

I support losers and conspiracy theorists only

Might I recommend you consider an alternative candidate next go around. 

[TwiceHorn 31,269]

It's almost like the Russians did what was necessary to keep Trumpco from falling into the grease by overtly accepting their proposed contributions.

[Eskimohorn 5,613]

It seems Surly is at the bargaining stage of grief. 

This is the end of his Presidency. He’s fucked.

[David Dennison 18,655]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And took illegal contributions from Chinese nationals. The left backed his play hook line and sinker then...  Clintons defense... look we were facing a juggernaut from the republicans.. what he didn't say, (but what he did):  I'd have done anything to defeat them).

Does not excuse Trump for anything he did, but damn sure shows the democrats for the hypocrites they are.

Surely someone looked into that.

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

1 hour ago, troph said:

I disagree. He’s a company man. The OLC opinion governs the DOJ and he said to draw a conclusion would be to try and convict with out a trial depriving him of his right to confront his accusers. It’s actually taking a very strict stance on respecting the constitutional rights of the man. It’s quite a breath of fresh air. Now if everyone would follow his lead we would move to impeachment and conviction.

What you want is a short cut because virtually no one will respect and adhere to the process laid out in the constitution.

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

49 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m no lawyer but after reading the details of Volume 2, it looks like there might be sufficient evidence to establish a criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice between Trump and his personal  lawyers.   

My favorite (least favorite) line in Volume 2 is,

“The President’s efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful.”

This statement is some deceptive bullshit.  

How this statement reads to me is, “other than the few successful times the president obstructed justice, none of his efforts were successful. Also, the successful efforts to obstruct justice wouldn’t be in this report because they were successful.  

Acts like appointing your own prosecutor to exonerate you from your crimes after firing the AG that wouldn’t obstruct justice for you aren’t in this report because this investigation was overseen and closed by the Attorney General that was appointed precisely to obstruct justice.

Thanks.

[Js1 85,104]

33 minutes ago, YChang said:

I really hope this is your online persona... and you're not actually an awful person in real life. 

You’d probably be wrong assuming that

[bolverk 29,399]

46 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

It seems Surly is Trump supporters are at the bargaining denial stage of grief. 

Fify.

[David Dennison 18,655]

One of my favorite lines from early on in the report: "A statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts."

 

[American Swindle 102]

19 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Might I recommend you consider an alternative candidate next go around. 

If he runs with Beto, maybe.  

[Gap03 3,284]

19 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Did you look at the evidence cited in the report as supporting the FBI's assessment re Kilimnik?  It's fucking laughable.

Yes, I read it, but I stand by what I said above.  The Report says:

Quote

The FBI, however, assesses that Kilimnik has ties to Russian intelligence. Several pieces of the Office's evidence-including witness interviews and emails obtained through court-authorized search warrants support that assessment: ...

I read that as saying the FBI had made its own assessment, likely based on foreign intel and counterintel not disclosed in the Report.  The Report then includes evidence that the OSC found in its own investigation that supports that conclusion. I don't believe that the listed evidence is the only evidence of Kilimnik's ties to Russia.  

[GRHorn 105]

55 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

So Mueller's report comes out and says "I'm not saying it's collusion... but it's collusion" and all these republican criminal fucks come out of the woodwork crowing that they're vindicated for supporting this criminal fuck president? 

Who couldn't see this coming. 

It actually said there was no collusion (conspiracy or coordination). 

[David Dennison 18,655]

Just now, GRHorn said:

It actually said there was no collusion (conspiracy or coordination). 

That's not what it says. 

 

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

It's really shocking how much one organization has dumbed down this country revealed about how dumb so many Americans are.

 

[tchookem 3,900]

Clinton influenced Russian election to prop up Yeltsin who elevated Putin who influenced American election of Clinton with posts on twitter.

What a fucking world. 

The Mike Leach approach to foreign policy... its okay to let them score on us as long as we get our's in. Hopefully we'll score more.

 

[retread 2,951]

Imagine what the Rs would be saying if the tables were turned. Replace Trump's name with Obama in the report. 

[Fozzz 152]

9 minutes ago, Gap03 said:

Yes, I read it, but I stand by what I said above.  The Report says:

I read that as saying the FBI had made its own assessment, likely based on foreign intel and counterintel not disclosed in the Report.  The Report then includes evidence that the OSC found in its own investigation that supports that conclusion. I don't believe that the listed evidence is the only evidence of Kilimnik's ties to Russia.  

This is a very tortured reading of that part of the report.  Those pieces of evidence I referred to above are clearly listed as examples of the evidence obtained via "witness interviews and emails obtained through court-authorized search warrants."

imgur

 

I supposed there could be mountains of secret evidence supporting the contention that Trump is a Russian agent or even Beelzebub himself, but that is simply baseless speculation.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Fozzz

[Red Five 40,652]

(report provides evidence that Obama once saluted with coffee and likes arugula)

"Oh my God. Impeach now!!"

[retread 2,951]

Hearings would have started at 8AM this morning.

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

Yeah, you have the whole burden of proof thing backwards.  What the report established, definitively, is: the Russians engaged in a conspiracy to rig the election in favor of Trump; Trump and his campaign knew about that in advance and believed Russia’s efforts would benefit Trump; Trump and his subordinates were at least friendly to the idea of cooperation; high-ranking Trump campaign members met with Russia to discuss one of Russia’s two election rigging operations; Trump and his campaign did nothing to stop or report Russia’s activities; Trump and his administration impeded efforts to investigate Russia’s criminal attack on our democracy by lying, refusing interviews, destroying emails, etc.

What the report was unable to establish is that anyone on the Trump team was aware they were aiding a criminal act.  That is not tantamount, however, to Mueller establishing, proving, or concluding that Trump did not have the requisite intent.  The investigators just could not establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Trump DID have that intent.

Can you clarify a bit more on this?  What would have been the criminal act, and what would you guess prevented Mueller from concluding Trump & team had intent to commit that act?  It's true, is it not, that one need not know the act is illegal to be convicted of the crime, right?  Isn't it "commit the act with intent to do so"?

(And if you'd care to expound any further, what makes involuntary manslaughter a crime, given that one would presumably not have the intent to kill someone?)

[troph 24,562]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

yes yes, disregard that whole Russian collusion nothing burger (the point of the investigation)

....crickets chirping

I haven't ignored it.

best case - The Trump campaign knew our sworn enemy was waist deep trying to impact the electoral process and because the campaign thought it would benefit them they chose to profit instead of calling the FBI.  That my friends might not be jail time criminal, but it is clearly a political wrong that warrants political action.  Wait, so you are the POTUS and you knew the Russians were attacking the most sacred of our institutions - our electoral process - and all you did was wink and nod? 

worst case - like other sophisticated organized crime bosses - the Russians and the Trump campaign knew exactly where the line was for conspiracy, they walked right up to it and in classic mob boss fashion knew exactly how to ensure there was no evidence.  and if you read the report line by line and the hundred plus pages describing with painstaking detail the interconnections between Russia and Trump campaign folks, including business dealings in the Ukraine, violations of the Foreign Agent laws (Trump campaign officials were the foreign agents), meetings all over the globe, channeling through intermediaries to Putin, Junior actually trying to find out what dirt the Russians had on HRC, a systematic scheme of lying from the biggest players on the Trump side, and on and on you would have to at least be concerned.  But Mueller states very clearly, his conclusions are directly tied to a prosecutor's ability to successfully obtain a conviction.  and in many cases, organized crime knows exactly how to avoid creating that evidence.

Obstruction - then you have damning, absolutely damning evidence of obstruction.  it's shocking how consistent and persistent Trump was in trying to block, interfere and stop this investigation.

That's best and worst for Trump.  There is not a better view of this. 

[bolverk 29,399]

3 minutes ago, Red Five said:

(report provides evidence that Obama once saluted with coffee and likes arugula)

"Oh my God. Impeach now!!"

spicy mustard...tan suit...

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

1 hour ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Here’s my take:

If this conduct isn’t impeachable, then nothing is. I simply don’t agree that the American people are willing to tolerate all of this behavior or that there is any world where he will be re-elected. A majority of people didn’t support Nixon’s impeachment until the trial began and evidence was revealed to the American people.

While I agree regarding Trump and his actions, Nixon wasn't impeached, and there was no trial.  

[troph 24,562]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Can you clarify a bit more on this?  What would have been the criminal act, and what would you guess prevented Mueller from concluding Trump & team had intent to commit that act?  It's true, is it not, that one need not know the act is illegal to be convicted of the crime, right?  Isn't it "commit the act with intent to do so"?

(And if you'd care to expound any further, what makes involuntary manslaughter a crime, given that one would presumably not have the intent to kill someone?)

involuntary manslaughter has its own provision of intent and its a lower standard than that of conspiracy.  consipiracy will require actual knowledge is my expectation and involuntary manslaughter is essentially criminal negligence which is to say "you should have known that drinking and driving could kill someone and you did in fact intentionally drink and you intentionally drove" which establishes the requisite scienter.  it's all statutorily driven by the standard of intent required.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

While I agree regarding Trump and his actions, Nixon wasn't impeached, and there was no trial.  

The impeachment process was started with Nixon though... only once that started was he compelled to resign. 

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

54 minutes ago, 'stache said:

It's totally fine to you that the press secretary lied to the American public? 

* and the Attorney General

[David Dennison 18,655]

7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

This is a very tortured reading of that part of the report.  Those pieces of evidence I referred to above are clearly listed as examples of the evidence obtained via "witness interviews and emails obtained through court-authorized search warrants."

imgur

 

I supposed there could be mountains of secret evidence supporting the contention that Trump is a Russian agent or even Beelzebub himself, but that is simply baseless speculation.

If you read the report, it doesn't matter whether or not Trump is a Russian agent. What matters is that we have a president who knew the Russian government interfered in the 2016 election in his favor and then tried to cover it up by firing the FBI director, firing his attorney general, attempting to fire Robert Mueller, and lying to the American people at every opportunity about his contacts with Russians before and after the 2016 election.

That is extraordinary. This document is now part of history and it is incredibly damning to this president and this administration. Donald Trump will forever be stained and will in all likelihood take his place in history below Nixon in terms of malfeasance. 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by David Dennison

[bolverk 29,399]

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, troph said:

I haven't ignored it.

best case - 

worst case -

Obstruction -

That's best and worst for Trump.  There is not a better view of this. 

Sorry but I'm all out of heart emojis. Having read a good chunk of the report now, these are the most logical takeaways.

[GRHorn 105]

12 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That's not what it says. 

 

Mueller was unable to establish any conspiracy or coordination. We live in a country where your guilt has to be established, not your innocence. 

Yall are trying to tie a bunch of threads together like some investigators or prosecutors. Mueller went to great expense attempting to do the same. It didn’t happen. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Read the report, decide for yourself 

[Fozzz 152]

Trump tried to cover up Russia's clickbait instagram ads and facebook meme pages?

[BrickHorn 18,189]

I am not a criminal lawyer, but my understanding is that conspiracy requires that two or more people intentionally agreed to commit a criminal offense.  I’m not looking at the Report now but as I recall, the discussion of the Trump Tower meeting indicates that Jr’s attendance Or behavior at that meeting may have been a crime, but they couldn’t prove he intended to agree to commit a crime.  He kind of fell ass backward into it.  

It seems like a generous standard to apply, honestly.  I’d be interested in the crim law experts’ take on this one.

[retread 2,951]

^ not replying to you, brick...

So the highest bar for a president to get over is that he can't be indicted/convicted in a court of law? I think we should expect more from our president.

Edited April 19, 2019 by retread

[bolverk 29,399]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

Mueller was unable to establish any conspiracy or coordination. We live in a country where your guilt has to be established, not your innocence. 

Yall are trying to tie a bunch of threads together like some investigators or prosecutors. Mueller went to great expense attempting to do the same. It didn’t happen. 

Deny, obstruct, coverup, lie. Trump is not our standard.

[TornACL 7,675]

1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

I am not a criminal lawyer, but my understanding is that conspiracy requires that two or more people intentionally agreed to commit a criminal offense.  I’m not looking at the Report now but as I recall, the discussion of the Trump Tower meeting indicates that Jr’s attendance Or behavior at that meeting may have been a crime, but they couldn’t prove he intended to agree to commit a crime.  He kind of fell ass backward into it.  

It seems like a generous standard to apply, honestly.  I’d be interested in the crim law experts’ take on this one.

Too stupid to be guilty would be a fitting defense for that mouth breathing idiot son of his. 

[David Dennison 18,655]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

Mueller was unable to establish any conspiracy or coordination. We live in a country where your guilt has to be established, not your innocence. 

Yall are trying to tie a bunch of threads together like some investigators or prosecutors. Mueller went to great expense attempting to do the same. It didn’t happen. 

He also goes out of his way to say in no uncertain terms that just because he was unable to establish conspiracy or coordination, that does not mean there is no evidence of conspiracy or coordination. In fact, if you read the report, you will see that there is a lot of evidence of conspiracy and coordination. Robert Mueller does a good job of laying it all out there.

The more I read, the more I am shocked they ever let this report see the light of day. It is extraordinarily damaging to Donald Trump and his presidency.