The Robert Mueller Investigation

[TahoeHorn 107]

17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

...

Also, I think we seriously need another special prosecutor statute. ...

I won't argue for, or against this, your core argument.  I do think, however, as a layman, that it makes sense to have Mueller prosecute Manafort.  The basic idea behind the special counsel is to have him investigate things which the Executive Branch is not "enough" independent.  I don't think that there's any question that this meets the test even if the crimes themselves don't.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The fact remains that Mueller, understanding how this works better than most of us, punted Cohen to the USAO SDNY without missing an investigative beat.  His "needs" should not define his jurisdiction, which is basically the thrust of my argument.

The way I see it with Cohen is Mueller was knowledgeable of ongoing criminal activity involving Cohen that was outside his scope.  

Mueller couldn’t pursue Cohen’s ongoing extracurricular criminal activity without it becoming a fishing expedition. So, he kicked up to Rosenstein like he was supposed to.

This does not mean Mueller is finished investigating Cohen, in fact it probably means the opposite.

[Stros 153]

Rod Rosenstein Jumps the Shark

http://buzzjour.com/2018/05/03/rod-rosenstein-jumps-the-shark/

The leaked questions that special counsel Robert Mueller wants to ask Trump in a prospective deposition are, if accurate, a sign that Mueller has spun out of control on Rosenstein’s watch.

[TwiceHorn 32073]

12 minutes ago, TahoeHorn said:

I won't argue for, or against this, your core argument.  I do think, however, as a layman, that it makes sense to have Mueller prosecute Manafort.  The basic idea behind the special counsel is to have him investigate things which the Executive Branch is not "enough" independent.  I don't think that there's any question that this meets the test even if the crimes themselves don't.

I'm ok with the Manafort prosecution by Mueller.  It's not that far afield.  But I think we need to have a more principled basis for his(make that any special counsel's) jurisdiction or scope or mandate than simple convenience or any ol' thing he stumbles across.

 

And that's something that could/should be addressed by a special counsel statute, along with judicial review of the appointment and the scope of the appointment.

Edited May 4, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[hobbes2702 13440]

1 minute ago, Stros said:

Rod Rosenstein Jumps the Shark

http://buzzjour.com/2018/05/03/rod-rosenstein-jumps-the-shark/

The leaked questions that special counsel Robert Mueller wants to ask Trump in a prospective deposition are, if accurate, a sign that Mueller has spun out of control on Rosenstein’s watch.

How do you people read this shit as anything other than blatant propaganda 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, Stros said:

Rod Rosenstein Jumps the Shark

http://buzzjour.com/2018/05/03/rod-rosenstein-jumps-the-shark/

The leaked questions that special counsel Robert Mueller wants to ask Trump in a prospective deposition are, if accurate, a sign that Mueller has spun out of control on Rosenstein’s watch.

Sweet blog post.

[TahoeHorn 107]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm ok with the Manafort prosecution by Mueller.  It's not that far afield.  But I think we need to have a more principled basis for his(make that any special counsel's) jurisdiction or scope or mandate than simple convenience or any ol' thing he stumbles across.

I'll buy that.

[TwiceHorn 32073]

6 minutes ago, Stros said:

Rod Rosenstein Jumps the Shark

http://buzzjour.com/2018/05/03/rod-rosenstein-jumps-the-shark/

The leaked questions that special counsel Robert Mueller wants to ask Trump in a prospective deposition are, if accurate, a sign that Mueller has spun out of control on Rosenstein’s watch.

The other thing we haven't really addressed about those questions is how many of them are a straight up "deke" to lull Trumpco into thinking he can survive a questioning when the reality may be that Muellerco has 25 or 50 razor sharp questions, fenced in by documentary evidence, that Trump cannot avoid without either perjuring himself or admitting wrongdoing.

 

Also, one wonders if Mueller himself would do the questioning, or one of his "pitbulls."

Edited May 4, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TahoeHorn 107]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

How do you people read this shit as anything other than blatant propaganda 

The defendant is conducting a propaganda campaign.  Isn't that always the case?  And here, the real jury will be by the public.  How can you expect otherwise?

[hobbes2702 13440]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Sweet blog post.

It’s not. It’s an article by Rich Lowry.

[hobbes2702 13440]

1 minute ago, TahoeHorn said:

The defendant is conducting a propaganda campaign.  Isn't that always the case?  And here, the real jury will be by the public.  How can you expect otherwise?

True. Smart people see through the bullshit. Which is all this article is

[TahoeHorn 107]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

True. Smart people see through the bullshit. Which is all this article is

Yeah, but how smart so you have to be?  It's like saying "Ah ha! That 60 second segment on TV is Proctor and Gamble trying to sell me soap!"  It's the kind of thing you're supposed to know by about four.  I think 99% of what we hear on this is from somebody who has a bias.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

True. Smart people see through the bullshit. Which is all this article is

What sucks about this is there is no counter propaganda operation.  There are no well orchestrated and coordinated pro Robert Mueller, pro-Rosenstein, pro-DOJ/FBI public relations operations because these institutions are by their very mission, apolitical.

That’s why what Trump is doing is so dangerous and people like Tahoe just stand there in silence while the very institutions that protect us from tyranny are being dismantled by his team.

It’s sickening.

[TahoeHorn 107]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What sucks about this is there is no counter propaganda operation.  ...

What?  Please.

[Stros 153]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What sucks about this is there is no counter propaganda operation.  There are no well orchestrated and coordinated pro Robert Mueller, pro-Rosenstein, pro-DOJ/FBI public relations operations because these institutions are by their very mission, apolitical.

That’s why what Trump is doing is so dangerous and people like Tahoe just stand there in silence while the very institutions that protect us from tyranny are being dismantled by his team.

It’s sickening.

Mueller has every news channel but fox on his side.

[Stros 153]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What sucks about this is there is no counter propaganda operation.  There are no well orchestrated and coordinated pro Robert Mueller, pro-Rosenstein, pro-DOJ/FBI public relations operations because these institutions are by their very mission, apolitical.

That’s why what Trump is doing is so dangerous and people like Tahoe just stand there in silence while the very institutions that protect us from tyranny are being dismantled by his team.

It’s sickening.

You must be drunk.

[Brisketexan 106876]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

True. Smart people see through the bullshit. Which is all this article is

Well, when it says things like:

Quote

This is a sweeping and intrusive inquiry that isn’t just about about official acts, but about the president’s state of mind. 

Ummm, that's effectively an element of "obstruction of justice" in cases like these.

Quote

It is doubtful that a president can be guilty of obstruction of justice in exercising his official duties, precisely because passing judgment on the lawful acts of a president is not a matter for prosecutors or the courts, but for the political process (i.e., for the impeachment process if the acts are deemed abuses of power). 

1 -- There's substantial authority that disagree with the opening phrase.

2 -- NO SHIT it can be used for impeachment.  If the crimes are committed in office, that is absolutely one of the avenues of prosecution -- impeachment by the house and trial by the senate.  His argument amounts to the conclusion that (1) because the president arguably can't be prosecuted in the courts, then (2) there can be NO special counsel investigation of him.  

Quote

We now have an extensive obstruction investigation carried out by investigators who, as a material matter, haven’t been obstructed. 

Huh.  I must have missed the part of the definition of the crime that requires that the obstruction has to have actually WORKED for it to be a crime.

When  your premises are that shitty, your argument is just the runny shit that trails behind it.

[Buzzrock 15136]

2 hours ago, kevwun said:

He's pushing 80.  He may be suffering from Old Guy Who Watches Too Much Fox News Syndrome.

AKA Buzzrock's Dad

[hobbes2702 13440]

1 minute ago, Stros said:

Mueller has every news channel but fox on his side.

Reporting the truth and propaganda aren’t exactly the same thing.

[Stros 153]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Reporting the truth and propaganda aren’t exactly the same thing.

That's the funniest comment I've heard about the news in a long time!!! I'm going to give you some fucking rep!!!

[kevwun 16437]

Anything people don't want to hear these days is fake news or liberal media bias.  Whether it's true or not doesn't matter and is never considered.

Edited May 4, 2018 by kevwun

[Buzzrock 15136]

Anyone who gets their news from a 24 hour channel gets what they deserve.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

15 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Reporting the truth and propaganda aren’t exactly the same thing.

This and the other media outlets are only being pro-Mueller because they are the last line of defense against a tyrannical regime.

If the Trumpublicans weren’t actively trying to undermine the rule of law and justice, there would be no need for the 4th estate to step up and protect a foundation of our democracy.

I’m sure the liberal media would much rather be covering liberal ideas, topics, and positions instead of being forced to remind the public of what is really at stake here.

My point was the counter propaganda is not coming from the government institutions that are under attack.

It’s coming from American citizens and private companies that shouldn’t even have to do it in the first place.

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[babysdaddy 2731]

9 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Reporting the truth and propaganda aren’t exactly the same thing.

what about constant reporting of facts that get corrected?

[babysdaddy 2731]

15 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What sucks about this is there is no counter propaganda operation.  There are no well orchestrated and coordinated pro Robert Mueller, pro-Rosenstein, pro-DOJ/FBI public relations operations because these institutions are by their very mission, apolitical.

That’s why what Trump is doing is so dangerous and people like Tahoe just stand there in silence while the very institutions that protect us from tyranny are being dismantled by his team.

It’s sickening.

Also, this is pretty good trolling. 

[Buzzrock 15136]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This and the other media outlets are only being pro-Mueller because they are the last line of defense against a Tyrannical regime.

If the Trumpublicans weren’t actively trying to undermine the rule of law and justice, there would be no need for the 4th estate to step up and protect a foundation of our democracy.

I’m sure the liberal media would much rather be covering liberal ideas, topics, and positions instead of being forced to remind the public of what is really at stake here.

My point was the counter propaganda is not coming from the government institutions.

It’s coming from American citizens and private companies that shouldn’t even have to do it in the first place.

 

Whatever man. There should never be only one narrative.

[Stros 153]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This and the other media outlets are only being pro-Mueller because they are the last line of defense against a Tyrannical regime.

If the Trumpublicans weren’t actively trying to undermine the rule of law and justice, there would be no need for the 4th estate to step up and protect a foundation of our democracy.

I’m sure the liberal media would much rather be covering liberal ideas, topics, and positions instead of being forced to remind the public of what is really at stake here.

My point was the counter propaganda is not coming from the government institutions.

It’s coming from American citizens and private companies that shouldn’t even have to do it on the first place.

 

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Liberal tears are so fucking tasty.

[GW Hayduke 1957]

3 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

what about constant reporting of facts that get corrected?

Correcting errors isn’t propaganda. It is the way honest journalism is supposed to operate

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Whatever man. There should never be only one narrative.

Is justice, the rule of law, liberty, and freedom a narrative? 

 

 

[TahoeHorn 107]

I believe most of the facts I see or read reported.  I don't think the NYT lies and rarely gets their facts wrong.  But facts are presented selectively.  They present the facts they like.  I have to find the facts they don't like somewhere else.

And I lot of what I see or read is opinion.  I can tell the difference between facts and opinion.

We have relatively few conclusive facts in the Trump Russia thing.  We know that Russia messed with us.  We know a bunch of people have been indicted by people with the reputation of being highly professional.  We know Trump has repeatedly lied and engaged in extremely suspicious and inappropriate behavior.  And we have some selected minor details like the Trump Tower meeting.

But, big picture, we don't know shit.  An awful lot of smoke emanating from a spot across town, and maybe something that looks like a flame every now and then but we haven't seen enough to say the building on 123 Main is on fire.  The Trump building is over there underneath the smoke.  The smoke probably comes from a fire.  But we can't say the Trump building is on fire.  I'm going to wait on film at eleven.  We'll know.

In the meantime I'll speculate, but no decisions till I see film at eleven.  If I don't get my film, though, I'll be pissed.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, TahoeHorn said:

I believe most of the facts I see or read reported.  I don't think the NYT lies and rarely gets their facts wrong.  But facts are presented selectively.  They present the facts they like.  I have to find the facts they don't like somewhere else.

And I lot of what I see or read is opinion.  I can tell the difference between facts and opinion.

We have relatively few conclusive facts in the Trump Russia thing.  We know that Russia messed with us.  We know a bunch of people have been indicted by people with the reputation of being highly professional.  We know Trump has repeatedly lied and engaged in extremely suspicious and inappropriate behavior.  And we have some selected minor details like the Trump Tower meeting.

But, big picture, we don't know shit.  An awful lot of smoke emanating from a spot across town, and maybe something that looks like a flame every now and then but we haven't seen enough to say the building on 123 Main is on fire.  The Trump building is over there underneath the smoke.  The smoke probably comes from a fire.  But we can't say the Trump building is on fire.  I'm going to wait on film at eleven.  We'll know.

In the meantime I'll speculate, but no decisions till I see film at eleven.  If I don't get my film, though, I'll be pissed.

Please defend this Tahoe.

Please tell me why this man should not be removed from office after this public statement.

[Buzzrock 15136]

11 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Is justice, the rule of law, liberty, and freedom a narrative? 

 

 

Aaand I'm out. Have a good weekend everyone.

[Pods 7637]

We now know which Russian oligarch was stopped at JFK and had his electronic devices imaged. 

 

[hobbes2702 13440]

40 minutes ago, Stros said:

That's the funniest comment I've heard about the news in a long time!!! I'm going to give you some fucking rep!!!

Those of us who understand the difference between news and opinion, which you clearly do not, understood my point.

[hobbes2702 13440]

32 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Whatever man. There should never be only one narrative.

No shit. There should however only be one set of facts driving the narratives. This administration, and their propagandists, do not adhere to basic facts which makes their narrative worthless and it should be dismissed as such.

[TahoeHorn 107]

2 minutes ago, Pods said:

We now know which Russian oligarch was stopped at JFK and had his electronic devices imaged. 

...

 

I totally believe that Vekselberg was stopped at JFK and had his electronic devices imaged.  I have no idea whether that showed anything bad for Trump.  Maybe one day I'll learn what was on those electronic devices and will have an opinion.

[Pods 7637]

10 minutes ago, TahoeHorn said:

I totally believe that Vekselberg was stopped at JFK and had his electronic devices imaged.  I have no idea whether that showed anything bad for Trump.  Maybe one day I'll learn what was on those electronic devices and will have an opinion.

I strongly doubt they got a judge to sign off on a warrant, intercepted him and imaged all his devices for shits and grins. The question on whether they got anything is going to be how careless he was with his data security.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Pods

[Dolemite 143]

Mueller really needs help. If he didn't have the establishment press, Times, Post, network news etc, he would be all alone. Sad.

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Dolemite

[sheeeit 129]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What sucks about this is there is no counter propaganda operation.  There are no well orchestrated and coordinated pro Robert Mueller, pro-Rosenstein, pro-DOJ/FBI public relations operations because these institutions are by their very mission, apolitical.

That’s why what Trump is doing is so dangerous and people like Tahoe just stand there in silence while the very institutions that protect us from tyranny are being dismantled by his team.

It’s sickening.

Every once in a while Hugo's true nature peeks out.

It is funny that Politico (which is rated as liberal) is now a propaganda arm for Trump.  This was just an opinion piece (one I do not personally agree with very much).  There is probably a 50-1 ratio of opinion pieces that are against Trump.  

When you guys use words like tyranny, you are just making total fools of yourselves.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I’d call Trump an idiot but that might be unfair to idiots at this point.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

 

 

 

Remove the Russians and Don Jr.

Targets

[GW Hayduke 1957]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

 

 

 

Remove the Russians and Don Jr.

 

  Hide contents

Targets

 

I know he's new to all this and he's just a kid, but why take Don Jr. out of the target list? 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

4 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

I know he's new to all this and he's just a kid, but why take Don Jr. out of the target list? 

I think Don Jr. is a target

but the way this information was presented put him in a separate category due to being a family member.

FTR, I’m speculating on the targets.  

MSNBC didn’t claim anyone was a target.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Pods 7637]

Prince has been really under the radar in the national media, but he's in this up to his eyeballs. Prince ties the UAE into it. We know there's meat on the bone there, because of Nader. Prince also ties Rudy to the True Pundit email hoax and leaks from active NY field office FBI and NYPD. 

[GW Hayduke 1957]

Putting down Cohen, Manafort, Prince, and Stone would send a healthy message to future campaigns.  

[Pods 7637]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Putting down Cohen, Manafort, Prince, and Stone would send a healthy message to future campaigns.  

Someday they'll sing of Roger Stone, "they only let him go so long, out of blindness I suppose."

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

8 minutes ago, Pods said:

Prince has been really under the radar in the national media, but he's in this up to his eyeballs. Prince ties the UAE into it. We know there's meat on the bone there, because of Nader. Prince also ties Rudy to the True Pundit email hoax and leaks from active NY field office FBI and NYPD. 

The guy that got immunity probably gave up Prince and maybe a few others 

[Pods 7637]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The guy that got immunity probably gave up Prince and maybe a few others 

Yep, that's Nader. He's how we found out that the UAE meeting in the Seychelles was not as Prince said. Prince said the meeting with the Russian oligarch who runs Russia's sovereign wealth fund was impromptu, suggested by the UAE guys. Nader said, and showed documents to prove, that he personally set the meeting up between the Russian and Prince and that he had sent documents about it and had discussions about it with Prince both before and after the meeting. 

He's also how we found out about the second meeting amongst a few other things. I would guess he's told Mueller a lot more than is public. That's the pattern for this investigation. Mueller has this shit shut down tight. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

Lawyers for the company accused of funding Russia’s election interference trolls are demanding that special counsel Robert Mueller turn over reams of information, including the identities of informants, details of any electronic surveillance, and a list of “each and every instance” since 1945 in which the U.S. “engaged in operations to interfere with elections and political processes in any foreign country.”

The ambitious demand for legal discovery surfaced Friday in Mueller’s criminal case against 13 individuals and three Russian companies linked to the Internet Research Agency, the St. Petersburg troll farm that used fake accounts to organize demonstrations on U.S. soil and flood American social media with alt-right memes during the 2016 election. One of those defendants is Concord Management and Consulting, a Russian firm run by Yevgeny Prigozhin, a close Kremlin ally known as “Putin’s Chef,” who is also named individually as a defendant in the case.  

Attorneys at the law firm Reed Smith are representing Concord. Though the Washington D.C.-based lawyers have formally filed an appearance in the case, the government says they’ve refused to accept service of the court summons, and attempts to serve the Russian defendants through other means—like dropping off the summons with Russia’s prosecutor general in Moscow—have failed. Mueller’s team is seeking a postponement of a May 9th arraignment date until the technicality can be ironed out.

Concord’s attorneys, though, are wasting no time in demanding legal “discovery” in the case. Generally, the government is required to provide defendants with any evidence it intends to use at trial, as well as any material relevant to preparing a defense. To that end, the defense team is seeking a wealth of information on what the U.S. knows about the trolling operation, including a full list of fake social-media accounts, the names of suspected co-conspirators, details of electronic surveillance by U.S. intelligence agencies, and identities of Americans who were tricked into aiding the Russian campaign.

The lawyers also want Mueller to define a number of terms used in the indictment, including “improper foreign influence,” “significant funds,” and “disparaging Hillary Clinton.” In addition, the defense is demanding information on every U.S.-run election-interference operation since World War II, perhaps telegraphing a pot-kettle defense to the eight-count indictment.

“This disclosure should include any and all information regarding the use of computer infrastructure inside and outside of the United States, false foreign identities, goals to sow discord in a foreign political system, assistance to a foreign elected official or candidate, attacks on a foreign elected official or candidate, assassination or conspiracy to assassinate a foreign elected official or candidate, buying political advertisements, posing as foreign persons and/or failure to honestly identify to foreign voters the involvement of any officer, employee or agent of the United States Government,” reads a letter sent to Mueller’s office last month by Reed Smith partner Eric Dubelier.

Sensitive discovery usually comes with a court order forbidding the defendants and their lawyers from using the material for anything except trial preparation. It’s unclear how that might apply in a case where the defendant is viewed as an unofficial arm of the Kremlin.

 

[TahoeHorn 107]

2 hours ago, Pods said:

I strongly doubt they got a judge to sign off on a warrant, intercepted him and imaged all his devices for shits and grins. The question on whether they got anything is going to be how careless he was with his data security.

I agree.  Now tell me what you know.  No guessing.  You have to prepare the exhibit to be used at a trial.  You know zip.

 

Look whenever the Feds indict somebody I'm pretty sure they're guilty.  They have an awesome hit rate.  If my neighbor were indicted I'd treat him like he were guilty.  But if I'm on the jury I'm waiting for the facts.  Right now I have almost no facts.