The Robert Mueller Investigation

[David Dennison 18604]

1 minute ago, SquishMitten said:

Think it’s a little of both. The party as a whole can’t stay on topic or create a unified narrative. Unlike the Rs, there are many factions wanting to go in different directions so it’s hard for the best idea to gain traction. What it ultimately leads to is an all-or-nothing, headline grabber that has burned them repeatedly. Kavanaugh was a good example. There were very legitimate, provable reasons he was unfit for the bench, but the Ds couldn’t unite on that, instead letting the rape/assault narrative take hold. When that ultimately fizzled, their wad was blown and they lost. Same with the Mueller report. They let the narrative of collusion/Russian-asset take center stage. When that wasn’t absolutely proven, their wad was blown and they’re losing. If they let impeachment take hold (and then ultimately fail in the Senate), their final wad will be blown, and Trump will be set up really well for re-election. 

The dirty little secret about impeachment is that it currently wouldn't make it out of committee.

Nancy Pelosi knows this.

[GRHorn 105]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

so you've responded 3x since i answered your question, and i've heard nothing in response.

he's doing whatever he wants because either the system is too flawed or people are too meek to challenge him - just like a fucking gangster.

gangster's get away with it.  who's gonna stop em?  cops?  you pay off the cops.  you lean on them.  you bend them to your will.  

was i the only one who watched the hearings yesterday?

You said he gangsters his way around the Constitution. I was trying to find where he’s actually thwarted the Constitution. 

He’s doing whatever he wants? I see him constantly frustrated because he can’t do what he wants. 

I didn’t watch the hearings yesterday.  98% of people probably didn’t. 

[David Dennison 18604]

3 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

You said he gangsters his way around the Constitution. I was trying to find where he’s actually thwarted the Constitution. 

He’s doing whatever he wants? I see him constantly frustrated because he can’t do what he wants. 

I didn’t watch the hearings yesterday.  98% of people probably didn’t. 

So what you're saying is the lib cuck cry Dems are winning!

[jimmyjazz 45513]

41 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

And it’s being challenged in the Courts, correct?  Has anything actually happened towards him accomplishing his goal? No. 

I'm sorry, but did you miss the part about 47,000 children being taken into custody over less than a calendar year in Trump's Presidency?

Yeah, you missed that.

[GRHorn 105]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

So what you're saying is the lib cuck cry Dems are winning!

As far as containing Trump, yes. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Asithappens 974]

Bill Maher was pretty critical of Mueller on his last show.

Maher was mostly correct, imo.

[henrygandorf 29174]

4 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

You said he gangsters his way around the Constitution. I was trying to find where he’s actually thwarted the Constitution. 

He’s doing whatever he wants? I see him constantly frustrated because he can’t do what he wants. 

I didn’t watch the hearings yesterday.  98% of people probably didn’t. 

everything i listed above is thwarting the constitution.

i haven't seen him be frustrated at all.  he's smugly challenging the shit out of everything that comes from congress (the cops in this scenario).  much like a gangster, we just don't have a system in place to stop him, because nobody's ever pushed back like this.

barr didn't even show up today, because the president didn't want him to.  he may get shit for it, but the president won't.  but i'm sure the press secretary will clear this up, right?  oh wait, she has done 3 briefings in 4 months - totally normal, and not really following the rules.  that's doing whatever you want.

just say you were wrong, it'll be a good teachable moment for you.

[Jive Turkey 12562]

Here comes Nancy.

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

Impeach him.  Cunts.

[GRHorn 105]

43 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

for the sake of argument, let's use joe pesci's character (nicki) in casino as the example.  he was a big sports bettor.  when he won, he would go collect.  when he lost, he would tell the bookies to go fuck themselves.  what were they gonna do, muscle nicki?  nicki was the muscle.  nicki was able to do whatever he wanted outside the law, and there were no consequences.

presidents for a century have turned over their tax returns.  trump, can you do this please?  yeah, i will when i feel like it.  he still hasn't.  when he gets asked, he basically tells congress to go fuck themselves.  when they subpoena the banks, he sues the banks.  he pushes back and does whatever he wants and strong-arms everyone and gets away with it.

when congress is investigating obstruction, he sues and fights every subpoena.  he tells anyone and everyone on his side (even ex-employees) not to go testify.  "we're gonna fight every subpoena."  congress exists as a check on the executive branch, and he is completely circumventing that structure to do whatever he wants with no check - sounds pretty much like a gangster operating outside the law to me.

he wants all his people to fall in line and be puppets for him, much like a mafia boss.  when they don't, they get "whacked" (fired).  close to 500 people have been fired/quit/forced to quit in 2.5 years.  he threatens, he coerces, he bribes, he leans on people - until he gets what he wants.  it's the same shit he's been doing in the real estate business in new york for decades, but there it's sort of expected, if not completely "legal" - at least it's sorta part of the process.  not in washington. 

when the president appoints cabinet posts or other high offices in his administration, they are supposed to be confirmed by one of the other branches.  he makes them all "acting" so they don't need to ever get confirmed.  again, going around the process set up by either the constitution or whatever documents are in place to keep a check on the executive.  doing whatever he needs to do to keep everyone in line, but not subject to any oversight.

i could go on, but i don't think i should have to.

 

There’s nothing in the Constitution about necessitating release of President’s tax returns. They found an obscure statute to try to force it. He’s fighting that and likely to lose is my understanding. It’s his right to fight it.

Hes fighting subpoenas?  His executive branch is not the first to do that. 

He has a lot of staff turnover?  Has nothing to do with the Constitution. 

The point about acting cabinet members is good one. Congrats. Not the first time I’ve conceded a point on here. Won’t be the last. 

 

[GRHorn 105]

13 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

everything i listed above is thwarting the constitution.

i haven't seen him be frustrated at all.  he's smugly challenging the shit out of everything that comes from congress (the cops in this scenario).  much like a gangster, we just don't have a system in place to stop him, because nobody's ever pushed back like this.

barr didn't even show up today, because the president didn't want him to.  he may get shit for it, but the president won't.  but i'm sure the press secretary will clear this up, right?  oh wait, she has done 3 briefings in 4 months - totally normal, and not really following the rules.  that's doing whatever you want.

just say you were wrong, it'll be a good teachable moment for you.

Barr didn’t show up today. From what I read on The Hill he said he would show if they had the standard questioning involved in all similar hearings. Pretty simple. 

[Mdhorn 5908]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The dirty little secret about impeachment is that it currently wouldn't make it out of committee.

Nancy Pelosi knows this.

but you still do it because it's the right thing to do, it's their job to do, and you make the Republicans defend it and put their names to it.  You then hold the party accountable for what they did--through each rep that did not fulfill their obligation to the nation and defended Trump.  I fully understand the other argument but don't lose shaping the narrative, leverage or any upper hand along with lots of time by dragging this on.  Leaders can campaign on doing the right thing and showing spine.

[Jive Turkey 12562]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Impeach him. 

That ain't happening.

Quote

Pelosi also told her colleagues at the caucus meeting that she couldn’t sleep Wednesday night after watching Barr’s testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, during which he challenged Mueller’s legal theories and framework and further endeared himself to Trump and his GOP allies.

Pelosi added that impeachment is “too good for” President Donald Trump, reiterating her opposition to launching impeachment proceedings even as a growing chorus of Democrats demands it.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/02/nancy-pelosi-william-barr-lied-to-congress-1298314

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Barr didn’t show up today. From what I read on The Hill he said he would show if they had the standard questioning involved in all similar hearings. Pretty simple. 

no. he's making an excuse so he does not have to withstand questioning by an attorney. remember the kavanaugh hearing when the republicans had an outside party conduct questioning and they all gave their time to that lady? this is the same thing. barr wants his cake to look at, but he also wants to eat it. fuck you, william barr. he isn't showing up, because he's been caught lying, and he knows that if he was subjected to a skilled line of questioning, he would be further caught out.

barr is a liar and a coward, and needs to be removed from office. 

 

[Anastasis 23375]

I am not sure that I see the political downside for the dems pushing out an impeachment at this point. Puts every GOP Senator clearly on record, and probably moves the Senate in their favor 2020.  

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

That ain't happening.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/02/nancy-pelosi-william-barr-lied-to-congress-1298314

 

i think (not sure) that twicehorn was talking about barr.

[Anastasis 23375]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

no. he's making an excuse so he does not have to withstand questioning by an attorney. remember the kavanaugh hearing when the republicans had an outside party conduct questioning and they all gave their time to that lady? this is the same thing.

Is there a recent precedent for a cabinet level official being subjected to staff questioning during testimony? If so, that would clearly undermine Barr's position. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Anastasis

[henrygandorf 29174]

7 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

There’s nothing in the Constitution about necessitating release of President’s tax returns. They found an obscure statute to try to force it. He’s fighting that and likely to lose is my understanding. It’s his right to fight it.

Hes fighting subpoenas?  His executive branch is not the first to do that. 

He has a lot of staff turnover?  Has nothing to do with the Constitution. 

The point about acting cabinet members is good one. Congrats. Not the first time I’ve conceded a point on here. Won’t be the last. 

 

if you want to split hairs, that's fine.  i'm sure a constitutional scholar could only find five or so actual breaches or infractions, instead of 50+ like most everyone thinks.

the bottom line is that the constitution and overall structure and framework of our government has put congress in charge of checking the executive.  checks and balances is something everyone learns in 4th grade social studies.  right now, he is strong-arming his way around any type of congressional oversight.  he's basically telling the cops "go fuck yourself."  in a general sense, he is gangster-ing his way around the structure that keeps the president the president of a democratic republic, and not a king or a dictator.

if you're just trying to start shit, i get it.  i entered politics at my own risk.   

[Zavala 1384]

11 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Barr didn’t show up today. From what I read on The Hill he said he would show if they had the standard questioning involved in all similar hearings. Pretty simple. 

lol what a circus. He sat though questioning all day yesterday, and today they put a KFC bucket of chicken on his desk? 

Why don't they just bring Mueller up to talk about his report? 

[LonghornJudas 1090]

1 minute ago, Mdhorn said:

but you still do it because it's the right thing to do, it's their job to do, and you make the Republicans defend it and put their names to it.  You then hold the party accountable for what they did--through each rep that did not fulfill their obligation to the nation and defended Trump.  I fully understand the other argument but don't lose shaping the narrative, leverage or any upper hand along with lots of time by dragging this on.  Leaders can campaign on doing the right thing and showing spine.

Exactly right. This is the responsibility of the Congress and I expect them to do their job.

Quite frankly, we could use a little more impeaching/censuring/primarying of corrupt individuals and restore some integrity to our government.

[Nolacycling 893]

41 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The dirty little secret about impeachment is that it currently wouldn't make it out of committee.

Nancy Pelosi knows this.

can you explain?

[zork 629]

11 hours ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

I have a feeling....this is not going to end well for Barr....or Trump...when the dust settles.  Just a feeling.

 

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

the bottom line is that the constitution and overall structure and framework of our government has put congress in charge of checking the executive.  checks and balances is something everyone learns in 4th grade social studies.

Congress has largely abdicated their responsibility in this regard since I was in the 4th grade. 

[Zavala 1384]

Strange how Mueller declined to review Barr's letter, but Democrats are using Mueller's letter to Barr as the big "gotcha" moment. 

[RomaVicta 29756]

39 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Bill Maher was pretty critical of Mueller on his last show.

Maher was mostly correct, imo.

A guy's either all good or all bad.

[David Dennison 18604]

10 minutes ago, zork said:

 

And if he loses in 2020, all of those predictions will be correct.

[Asithappens 974]

Just now, RomaVicta said:

A guy's either all good or all bad.

Don't know what that has to do with any of this. It certainly wasn't Maher's take on the matter, imo.

[Zavala 1384]

Is The Hill right-wing Russia propaganda?

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/441580-nellie-ohrs-hi-honey-emails-to-doj-about-russia-collusion-should-alarm-us#.XMo3POquQ5U.twitter

 

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Zavala

[RomaVicta 29756]

2 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Don't know what that has to do with any of this. It certainly wasn't Maher's take on the matter, imo.

What's your take? I don't watch the show.

[henrygandorf 29174]

10 minutes ago, Zavala said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Strange how Mueller declined to review Barr's letter, but Democrats are using Mueller's letter to Barr as the big "gotcha" moment. 

 

not a gotcha moment, but the timing of the letter shows that barr lied to congress. 

nobody's "using" it for anything.  hearings are meant to extract information or catch people in lies.

[Brandywine 1311]

We can only pray he’ll lose in 2020. Then go back to NY and face the Southern District about all the crimes he and his family probably did before he was President.

[Zavala 1384]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

not a gotcha moment, but the timing of the letter shows that barr lied to congress. 

nobody's "using" it for anything.  hearings are meant to extract information or catch people in lies.

They all repeated the same point as a lie, but they wouldn't let him repeat the question. He also called Mueller, with a room full listening, and was told the problem was with the media. 

Either way, it's come a long way from Democrats accusing the president of treason and saying there is evidence in the Mueller report to show that. Now they are saying Barr lied about Mueller's feelings on the Barr letter about the report.

[hayden_horn 11360]

4 minutes ago, Zavala said:

They all repeated the same point as a lie, but they wouldn't let him repeat the question. He also called Mueller, with a room full listening, and was told the problem was with the media. 

Either way, it's come a long way from Democrats accusing the president of treason and saying there is evidence in the Mueller report to show that. Now they are saying Barr lied about Mueller's feelings on the Barr letter about the report.

well, he did say he didn't know what mueller felt about his bullshit summary.

further, he backpedaled on that call as soon as a senator asked him for the notes on that call.

the AG is a bullshitter, and a bad one at that. he should be removed ASAP.

[RomaVicta 29756]

5 minutes ago, Zavala said:

They all repeated the same point as a lie, but they wouldn't let him repeat the question. He also called Mueller, with a room full listening, and was told the problem was with the media. 

Either way, it's come a long way from Democrats accusing the president of treason and saying there is evidence in the Mueller report to show that. Now they are saying Barr lied about Mueller's feelings on the Barr letter about the report.

Great summary. Thanks for being neither reductive nor obtuse!

[TwiceHorn 31184]

45 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

That ain't happening.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/02/nancy-pelosi-william-barr-lied-to-congress-1298314

 

Hence the second part.  These hearings on collateral matters are such a waste of time.

Edited May 2, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Chuckie Finster 22583]

21 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Is The Hill right-wing Russia propaganda?

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/441580-nellie-ohrs-hi-honey-emails-to-doj-about-russia-collusion-should-alarm-us#.XMo3POquQ5U.twitter

 

 

John F. Solomon certainly is.

https://thinkprogress.org/washington-times-names-controversial-reporter-john-solomon-as-new-executive-editor-f508fdf106fe/

https://crooked.com/articles/fool-twice-shame-media/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fbi-text-message-leaks-trump-clinton_n_5a58d593e4b0720dc4c69677

[henrygandorf 29174]

16 minutes ago, Zavala said:

They all repeated the same point as a lie, but they wouldn't let him repeat the question. He also called Mueller, with a room full listening, and was told the problem was with the media. 

Either way, it's come a long way from Democrats accusing the president of treason and saying there is evidence in the Mueller report to show that. Now they are saying Barr lied about Mueller's feelings on the Barr letter about the report.

dems accused of not going through the process of holding hearings leading up to (possible) impeachment for obstruction (not "treason").

dems go through the process and call barr.

see, now all they care about is barr!

lulz.

"and was told the problem was with the media."  no.  he called him back about the letter he sent.  the letter didn't mention the media.  some of the phone call was about how mueller felt that barr's mischaracterization of his report (in his initial summary) had spun the public perception a certain way, and that he didn't feel like the media's interpretation was accurate.  but don't worry, barr took notes on the call.  but he won't show them to us.  because he doesn't want to. 

[suddenly shaggy 929]

26 minutes ago, Brandywine said:

We can only pray he’ll lose in 2020. Then go back to NY and face the Southern District about all the crimes he and his family probably did before he was President.

If you think Trump is willingly stepping down, in 2020 or 2024, you haven't been paying attention. He's publicly "joked" about staying past eight years three times now. The day he steps down, he faces a ton of criminal charges. He's never stepping down willingly. 

[David Dennison 18604]

3 minutes ago, suddenly shaggy said:

If you think Trump is willingly stepping down, in 2020 or 2024, you haven't been paying attention. He's publicly "joked" about staying past eight years three times now. The day he steps down, he faces a ton of criminal charges. He's never stepping down willingly. 

Then it will be unwillingly. He'll be removed from office with a quickness on January 20th if he does not step down willingly. The new president will be sworn in and make the order.

[suddenly shaggy 929]

24 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Now they are saying Barr lied about Mueller's feelings on the Barr letter about the report.

Fuck off troll. Barr lied and you are lying here. Mueller's letter make it clear that he disagreed with Barr's synopsis and statements, not with the media.

There is zero evidence that Mueller was upset with the media, aside from yet another unnamed Trumpkin source in the DOJ lying. The media really needs to stop being used like a communal skeet sock by the same liars over and over. 

Barr blatantly misstated the contents of the Mueller report twice before the report was released. Barr lied to Congress. 

[LongestHorn 759]

Approve legislation permitting POTUS third term, and Trump will sign it.  

Obama vs. Trump 

Popcorn.

[David Dennison 18604]

3 minutes ago, suddenly shaggy said:

Fuck off troll. Barr lied and you are lying here. Mueller's letter make it clear that he disagreed with Barr's synopsis and statements, not with the media.

There is zero evidence that Mueller was upset with the media, aside from yet another unnamed Trumpkin source in the DOJ lying. The media really needs to stop being used like a communal skeet sock by the same liars over and over. 

Barr blatantly misstated the contents of the Mueller report twice before the report was released. Barr lied to Congress. 

Guess who's in charge of criminal referrals for lying to Congress.

Pretty convenient.

[suddenly shaggy 929]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Then it will be unwillingly. He'll be removed from office with a quickness on January 20th if he does not step down willingly. The new president will be sworn in and make the order.

I wish your naive optimism reflected reality. The Democrats are toothless and the GOP is utterly complicit. Trumpublicans control every lever of power, aside from the House. 

[Native Horn 3484]

3 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

Approve legislation permitting POTUS third term, and Trump will sign it.  

Obama vs. Trump 

Popcorn.

It would take an amendment to the Constitution.  Not a matter of Trump simply signing it.  The legislation would need to be in the form of a national vote I believe.  (Not a lawyer)

[henrygandorf 29174]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Then it will be unwillingly. He'll be removed from office with a quickness on January 20th if he does not step down willingly. The new president will be sworn in and make the order.

please god let him resist.

[David Dennison 18604]

1 minute ago, suddenly shaggy said:

I wish your naive optimism reflected reality. The Democrats are toothless and the GOP is utterly complicit. Trumpublicans control every lever of power, aside from the House. 

The new president will be sworn in and remove Donald Trump. It's just that simple.

But I really hope you're right. I'd love to see him try to stay. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

dems accused of not going through the process of holding hearings leading up to (possible) impeachment for obstruction (not "treason").

dems go through the process and call barr.

see, now all they care about is barr!

lulz.

"and was told the problem was with the media."  no.  he called him back about the letter he sent.  the letter didn't mention the media.  some of the phone call was about how mueller felt that barr's mischaracterization of his report (in his initial summary) had spun the public perception a certain way, and that he didn't feel like the media's interpretation was accurate.  but don't worry, barr took notes on the call.  but he won't show them to us.  because he doesn't want to. 

The issue is that messaging is more important politically than process.  Hillary was cleared by process, but lost because of messaging. 

Dems always think that the public will be swayed by a prudent, reasoned process approach.   That's why they lose so much.   The public largely doesn't understand the context of the Barr testimony.   The messaging they've gotten from the Dems that the Mueller report isn't enough to impeach, which makes any hearings seem like politically driven fishing expeditions rather than a grave responsibility compelled by Mueller's findings.   Barr's testimony in the House needs to be "First Hearing in the matter of the Impeachment of Donald J. Trump."  It's almost more important that it be called that than what happens at the hearing itself.

But it may already be too late.  IMO, Dems have totally fumbled the ball.   That said, opinions are like assholes, and I have no particular expertise.  Hopefully I'm wrong and the Dems are playing great chess here. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

The issue is that messaging is more important politically than process.  Hillary was cleared by process, but lost because of messaging. 

Dems always think that the public will be swayed by a prudent, reasoned process approach.   That's why they lose so much.   The public largely doesn't understand the context of the Barr testimony.   The messaging they've gotten from the Dems that the Mueller report isn't enough to impeach, which makes any hearings seem like politically driven fishing expeditions rather than a grave responsibility compelled by Mueller's findings.   Barr's testimony in the House needs to be "First Hearing in the matter of the Impeachment of Donald J. Trump."  It's almost more important that it be called that than what happens at the hearing itself.

But it may already be too late.  IMO, Dems have totally fumbled the ball.   That said, opinions are like assholes, and I have no particular expertise.  Hopefully I'm wrong and the Dems are playing great chess here. 

agreed, i was just feeding the troll.

[Asithappens 974]

54 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

What's your take? I don't watch the show.

That Mueller conducted a thorough investigation and found sufficient evidence of wrongs to pursue an indictment, whether that would break precedent or not.

Mueller bailed. He left the hard work to a Congress that he (Mueller) knows won't act.