The Robert Mueller Investigation

[retread 2951]

6 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Starr Report came out in September.  Mueller report came out in April.

I hope triple and DD are right, but I'm not optimistic. By late fall or early '20, the Mueller report will be ancient history.

The House could open impeachment at a later date, but the momentum has already slipped away from them imo.

[Anastasis 23390]

6 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Inapt analogy, imo.  Time doesn't expire this Christmas.

How about Easter?

[David Dennison 18646]

3 minutes ago, retread said:

I hope triple and DD are right, but I'm not optimistic. By late fall or early '20, the Mueller report will be ancient history.

The House could open impeachment at a later date, but the momentum has already slipped away from them imo.

There is a very real possibility that Donald Trump is not going to be impeached. People should get used to that.

But also, he might get impeached.

[retread 2951]

I think impeachment would be worthwhile now or in January. It would be worthwhile if the Ds have the fortitude to step out of their comfort zone and go on offense. They will have to fight and force the issue both to start impeachment and to see it through. I'm skeptical of either happening.

I think they know that momentum has slipped away. They can't even get Mueller before a committee.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

I’ve come to the conclusion the House will at least have to start the impeachment process.  There’s just no way around it, politically speaking.  Not starting the process validates all of Trump’s lies about it being a nothingburger and a hoax.  

The questions that remain are when to start that process and if they want to take a vote on it in the House before the election.

I don’t think they begin the process until 2020 and I see three possible scenarios:

1.  They could begin the process sometime in early to mid 2020, lay out all the evidence, and then postpone the house vote until after the election...This would be a McConnell move by Pelosi.  

2.  They could impeach Trump in the House in mid 2020 and give McConnell the opportunity to obstruct a trial in the Senate because it’s too close to the election.  The traditional McConnell. 

3. Impeached in the house mid 2020, McConnell does have a trial in the senate during the heat of a presidential campaign and they vote to not convict.  

None of these gambits are good for Donald Trump because the House will have prosecuted a credible criminal case against him. 

[DixonHur 11151]

22 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So? 

So the GOP jumped on it...Nancy is sitting on her fucking hands.  We all know you have no problem with that, which is fine, but the 2 situations are apples and oranges.

Bill Clinton lied about getting a blow job and the Pubs couldn't wait to get going on impeachment.  Trump is a traitor to his country and Nancy's like...it's too hard to impeach...

[GW Hayduke 1951]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yep, this is another fuck up by the democrats. 

Relax lol. 

[triplehorn 2664]

37 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

How about Easter?

too soon ! 

lol

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

18 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So the GOP jumped on it...Nancy is sitting on her fucking hands.  We all know you have no problem with that, which is fine, but the 2 situations are apples and oranges.

Bill Clinton lied about getting a blow job and the Pubs couldn't wait to get going on impeachment.  Trump is a traitor to his country and Nancy's like...it's too hard to impeach...

The Mueller report was the one shot to pull off a successful removal of Trump but they needed to act quickly and with a sense of urgency.  Barr knew this and that’s why he sandbagged with the ludicrous and misleading Barr letter.  

Granted, there’s a good chance it would not have been successful anyway but Trump’s people were obviously freaked out enough to get Bill Barr to go full coverup general and leave nothing to chance.  

The facts and evidence in the Mueller Report are still there waiting to be used to prosecute Trump.  I think they will be.

[suddenly shaggy 929]

4 hours ago, triplehorn said:

If DB is the linchpin to unlocking the web of cash and associations over a decade or more for Trump world, this is something not even Mitch could ignore.

There is no crime Mitch McConnell cannot and will not ignore. There is no bar too low. The GOP has sold their soul.

Edited July 12, 2019 by suddenly shaggy

[henrygandorf 29174]

29 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The Mueller report was the one shot to pull off a successful removal of Trump but they needed to act quickly and with a sense of urgency.  Barr knew this and that’s why he sandbagged with the ludicrous and misleading Barr letter.  

Granted, there’s a good chance it would not have been successful anyway but Trump’s people were obviously freaked out enough to get Bill Barr to go full coverup general and leave nothing to chance.  

The facts and evidence in the Mueller Report are still there waiting to be used to prosecute Trump.  I think they will be.

nope.

he was never going to get removed, regardless of the report.

[Anastasis 23390]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

nope.

he was never going to get removed, regardless of the report.

I don't agree with this.  If the report would have demonstrated clear and compelling evidence of conspiracy with Russia to interfere in the election, GOP senators would have been given the necessary cover to vote for removal.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

he was never going to get removed, regardless of the report.

That’s your opinion and I nearly said as much if you were to keep reading.  The point was the White House was freaked out and threatened enough to need Bill Barr to run his own active measures operation to conceal Trump’s crimes. 

It’s safe to conclude Trump’s people thought there was a non-zero chance Trump could be removed based on the Mueller Report.  Otherwise, why go through all that effort to mislead the public? 

[suddenly shaggy 929]

6 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

nope.

he was never going to get removed, regardless of the report.

Correct, GOP and Trump are one entity. There is a zero percent chance the Trumpublicans would remove him, regardless of offense. However, it was the time for Pelosi to go on the offensive and make clear to the rest of the country that the GOP is utterly corrupted and run by criminals and liars. She should have opened impeachment hearings while making clear to the public that McConnell is covering up for Trump and willing to let our foreign enemies win to get more political power. Then said, even though the Senate is utterly failing the country, the House will do their constitutional duty. That makes it a lot harder for the White House to obstruct and prevent witnesses from testifying. Dems fucked up massively and missed the best window they will get. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

That’s your opinion and I nearly said as much if you were to keep reading.  The point was the White House was freaked out and threatened enough to need Bill Barr to run his own active measures operation to conceal Trump’s crimes. 

It’s safe to conclude Trump’s people thought there was a non-zero chance Trump could be removed based on the Mueller Report.  Otherwise, why go through all that effort to mislead the public? 

uh, to control the narrative?

why do you guys react like we haven't been watching this shit-circus for 3 years?

why don't we have press briefings?  or pentagon briefings? 

so that trump can control the narrative from his toilet via twitter or by spewing his catch phrases to the gaggle from the rose garden.  that's all he cares about, and that's all he should care about, because about 90% of his base (which is about 40% of this country) consumes all their information this way.  even after the report there were plenty of seemingly level-headed adults like the woman in minnesota who had no idea anything negative was even in the report.  you think she's an anomaly?  you think the journalist was so fucking good he found some needle in a haystack to interview?

trump freaked out because he's super-sensitive and a fucking crybaby of the highest order.  the administration didn't freak out, they just did what they do - project, deflect, dispute, and lie (basically everything except a direct denial).  oh, and support whatever the orange guy says to the press.

and when you say "trump's people", i know you're talking about his staffers, cabinet, you know, people who he actually nominated/appointed/hired.  but the reality these days is that "his people" now include the senate and house r's.  20 republican senators would have to vote to remove.  no way mcconnell allows that.  no way those senators risk alienating themselves to the 40% of america (which is obviously a much higher number of gop support), knowing it would likely mean the end of their political career.

i'm not saying "there's no way he gets removed" like people say "there's no way the browns will ever win the superbowl".  there's no way he would've gotten removed.

zero chance. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

48 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The Mueller report was the one shot to pull off a successful removal of Trump but they needed to act quickly and with a sense of urgency.  Barr knew this and that’s why he sandbagged with the ludicrous and misleading Barr letter.  

Granted, there’s a good chance it would not have been successful anyway but Trump’s people were obviously freaked out enough to get Bill Barr to go full coverup general and leave nothing to chance.  

The facts and evidence in the Mueller Report are still there waiting to be used to prosecute Trump.  I think they will be.

i agree with this part, and i think he's in deep shit once he's out of office.  

apples and oranges here.

[David Dennison 18646]

49 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The Mueller report was the one shot to pull off a successful removal of Trump but they needed to act quickly and with a sense of urgency.  Barr knew this and that’s why he sandbagged with the ludicrous and misleading Barr letter.  

Granted, there’s a good chance it would not have been successful anyway but Trump’s people were obviously freaked out enough to get Bill Barr to go full coverup general and leave nothing to chance.  

The facts and evidence in the Mueller Report are still there waiting to be used to prosecute Trump.  I think they will be.

You can't be serious. 

[Captainant 27398]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't agree with this.  If the report would have demonstrated clear and compelling evidence of conspiracy with Russia to interfere in the election, GOP senators would have been given the necessary cover to vote for removal.  

...they literally did find that evidence. They just weren't able to definitely prove that trump and friends knew it was illegal, likely in part because of the massive obstruction effort by trump and administration.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

18 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

uh, to control the narrative?

why do you guys react like we haven't been watching this shit-circus for 3 years?

why don't we have press briefings?  or pentagon briefings? 

so that trump can control the narrative from his toilet via twitter or by spewing his catch phrases to the gaggle from the rose garden.  that's all he cares about, and that's all he should care about, because about 90% of his base (which is about 40% of this country) consumes all their information this way.  even after the report there were plenty of seemingly level-headed adults like the woman in minnesota who had no idea anything negative was even in the report.  you think she's an anomaly?  you think the journalist was so fucking good he found some needle in a haystack to interview?

trump freaked out because he's super-sensitive and a fucking crybaby of the highest order.  the administration didn't freak out, they just did what they do - project, deflect, dispute, and lie (basically everything except a direct denial).  oh, and support whatever the orange guy says to the press.

and when you say "trump's people", i know you're talking about his staffers, cabinet, you know, people who he actually nominated/appointed/hired.  but the reality these days is that "his people" now include the senate and house r's.  20 republican senators would have to vote to remove.  no way mcconnell allows that.  no way those senators risk alienating themselves to the 40% of america (which is obviously a much higher number of gop support), knowing it would likely mean the end of their political career.

i'm not saying "there's no way he gets removed" like people say "there's no way the browns will ever win the superbowl".  there's no way he would've gotten removed.

zero chance. 

The AG of the United States obstructing justice in the court of public opinion was a serious line not previously crossed.  It goes beyond just controlling the narrative as usual.  It was so egregious Robert Mueller himself wrote Bill Barr a letter denouncing it. 

Barr could have released the report with no spin at let it speak for itself but the Trump administration felt compelled to throw the credibility of the DOJ under the bus as well.  It was a bit more than simply controlling the narrative.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You can't be serious. 

Successful removal does not equal conviction in the senate.  That would never happen.  The battlefield is public opinion.  If it got bad enough, anything could happen. The Democrats would have needed to do some heavy lifting too for Trump to be ousted over the Mueller Report.

[henrygandorf 29174]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The AG of the United States obstructing justice in the court of public opinion was a serious line not previously crossed.  It goes beyond just controlling the narrative as usual.  It was so egregious Robert Mueller himself wrote Bill Barr a letter denouncing it. 

Barr could have released the report with no spin at let it speak for itself but the Trump administration felt compelled to throw the credibility of the DOJ under the bus as well.  It was a bit more than simply controlling the narrative. 

except that it was exactly that.

everyone related to trump in this game has created new depths for how far they'll actually go to protect this monster.

what better way to control the narrative than have a (previously) legit lawman give america a 10 minute fake summary knowing that almost no one (Including the president) would ever fucking read the full 450 page report.

what you guys fail to realize, is that the problem right now isn't that "most of america is fucking lazy and stupid" it's that trump understands how the lazy, stupid people work, and knows exactly how to get them to support him.  he's still got florida hillbillies chanting lock-her-up.

so sure, as far as "lines previously not crossed", we need new instruments to measure how deep this hellhole will go.

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Successful removal does not equal conviction in the senate.  That would never happen.  The battlefield is public opinion.  If it got bad enough, anything could happen. The Democrats would have needed to do some heavy lifting too for Trump to be ousted over the Mueller Report.

Are you saying Donald Trump would have resigned if the Mueller Report was presented to the public with no spin from the AG?

 

[henrygandorf 29174]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Successful removal does not equal conviction in the senate.  That would never happen.  The battlefield is public opinion.  If it got bad enough, anything could happen. The Democrats would have needed to do some heavy lifting too for Trump to be ousted over the Mueller Report.

ok wait.  maybe i'm misunderstanding you then.

what are you talking about?

[retread 2951]

9 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The AG of the United States obstructing justice in the court of public opinion was a serious line not previously crossed.  

The timeline is ridiculous. It's shameful that this is acceptable in America.

Quote

March 22: Attorney General Bill Barr received Mueller's report, marking the end of the special counsel investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and possible obstruction of justice by President Trump.

March 24: After reviewing the report, Barr sent a summary to Congress saying: "[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." On the question of obstruction of justice, Barr wrote that while Mueller's report "does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."

April 18: Barr releases a redacted version of the Mueller report.

April 30: It emerges Mueller told Barr his 4-page summary to Congress failed to "fully capture" the findings, prompting Democrats to step up criticism of the attorney general.

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by retread

[Zavala 1384]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

ok wait.  maybe i'm misunderstanding you then.

what are you talking about?

lulz

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

except that it was exactly that.

everyone related to trump in this game has created new depths for how far they'll actually go to protect this monster.

what better way to control the narrative than have a (previously) legit lawman give america a 10 minute fake summary knowing that almost no one (Including the president) would ever fucking read the full 450 page report.

what you guys fail to realize, is that the problem right now isn't that "most of america is fucking lazy and stupid" it's that trump understands how the lazy, stupid people work, and knows exactly how to get them to support him.  he's still got florida hillbillies chanting lock-her-up.

so sure, as far as "lines previously not crossed", we need new instruments to measure how deep this hellhole will go.

I get that but when our sworn public servants, especially the top cop in America start lying to the public regarding the biggest scandal in the history of the presidency, it’s crossing the rubicon into another world.  

Sessions wouldn’t it, Comey wouldn’t do it, Rosenstein wouldn’t do it, Yates wouldn’t do it, McCabe wouldn’t do it, Coates wouldn’t do it, Wray wouldn’t do it, not even big dick toilet salesman Whitaker would do it.

But Bill Barr?  He did it. 

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I get that but when our sworn public servants, especially the top cop in America start lying to the public regarding the biggest scandal in the history of the presidency, it’s crossing the rubicon into another world.  

Sessions wouldn’t it, Comey wouldn’t do it, Rosenstein wouldn’t do it, Yates wouldn’t do it, McCabe wouldn’t do it, Coates wouldn’t do it, Wray wouldn’t do it, not even big dick toilet salesman Whitaker would do it.

But Bill Barr?  He did it. 

Which is why Donald Trump is a Republican Party problem.

[DixonHur 11151]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Which is why Donald Trump is a Republican Party problem.

I think Donald Trump is a problem for everyone.

[David Dennison 18646]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I think Donald Trump is a problem for everyone.

But only Republicans can do anything about him remaining president until the country votes in 2020. They are protecting him and there's nothing Democrats can do about it.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

7 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

ok wait.  maybe i'm misunderstanding you then.

what are you talking about?

Euromaidan Ukraine 2013 or something like it.  Or the Senate works out a deal for Trump to resign without prosecution.  Some combination of public backlash and mobilization and congressional action to force Trump out.  The Senate would never convict.

Sounds ridiculous but isn’t if the public was compelled to take the Mueller Report seriously. 

[Anastasis 23390]

30 minutes ago, Captainant said:

...they literally did find that evidence. 

If that is the case, they didn't write up the findings in such a way as to draw that out clearly.

The investigation did not identify evidence that any U.S. persons conspired or coordinated with the IRA. 

...

Second, while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges. Among other things, the evidence was not sufficient to charge any Campaign official as an unregistered agent of the Russian government or other Russian principal. And our evidence about the June 9, 2016 meeting and WikiLeaks's releases of hacked materials was not sufficient to charge a criminal campaign-finance violation. Further, the evidence was not sufficient to charge that any member of the Trump Campaign conspired with representatives of the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election.

 

If you think that those conclusions represent a clear and compelling statement from Mueller that is going to move GOP Senators, I am not sure what to say. 

 

As it is, we are left with an obstruction case.  Which while I believe it is more than sufficient to impeach and remove, just isn't going to move GOP Senators.  They needed a definitive conclusion from Mueller on conspiracy and didn't get it. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Anastasis

[henrygandorf 29174]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I get that but when our sworn public servants, especially the top cop in America start lying to the public regarding the biggest scandal in the history of the presidency, it’s crossing the rubicon into another world.  

Sessions wouldn’t it, Comey wouldn’t do it, Rosenstein wouldn’t do it, Yates wouldn’t do it, McCabe wouldn’t do it, Coates wouldn’t do it, Wray wouldn’t do it, not even big dick toilet salesman Whitaker would do it.

But Bill Barr?  He did it. 

so you're saying the guy in charge wanted his people to do some crazy/borderline illegal/definitely unethical shit.  a bunch of guys wouldn't do it, and they eventually got fired.

then the guy brought it to replace the most recently fired guy, actually did what the others wouldn't do?  and that guy still has his job?

imagine we're not talking about the president and the american govt, then realize how completely normal that sounds in the business world.  then remember where trump has been lurking for the past 30+ years.

i think the issue here, and i'm as guilty as anyone, is that most of us wander this earth with a "well that type of shit could never happen in america" attitude.  it's like chris rock said.  we never should've gotten rid of the bullies.  because now a real bully has come along, and we have no fucking idea what to do about it.

[David Dennison 18646]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Euromaidan Ukraine 2013 or something like it.  Or the Senate works out a deal for Trump to resign without prosecution.  Some combination of public backlash and mobilization and congressional action to force Trump out.  The Senate would never convict.

Sounds ridiculous but isn’t if the public was compelled to take the Mueller Report seriously. 

It does sound ridiculous, I'll give you that.

[henrygandorf 29174]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Euromaidan Ukraine 2013 or something like it.  Or the Senate works out a deal for Trump to resign without prosecution.  Some combination of public backlash and mobilization and congressional action to force Trump out.  The Senate would never convict.

Sounds ridiculous but isn’t if the public was compelled to take the Mueller Report seriously. 

oh.

you used the word "removal", so, you know, i assumed you meant "conviction by the senate", since that's the exact word that gets used.

but now i see you're talking about resignation.

the lulz board is over there ----------------------->

[GW Hayduke 1951]

Lawfare is starting a new podcast that will be about the mueller report

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

9 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

oh.

you used the word "removal", so, you know, i assumed you meant "conviction by the senate", since that's the exact word that gets used.

but now i see you're talking about resignation.

the lulz board is over there ----------------------->

Compelled by force to abandon his office sounds good too. 

[triplehorn 2664]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If that is the case, they didn't write up the findings in such a way as to draw that out clearly.

The investigation did not identify evidence that any U.S. persons conspired or coordinated with the IRA. 

Note that the Russian Internet Research Agency (IRA) was a separate prong of the attack than the coordinated hack and release of emails through wikileaks.  The latter is what the Roger Stone indictments are about and ties directly to unnamed individuals in the Trump campaign.

Also, keep in mind lying and obstruction were likely used to hide facts and evidence to prevent feds from going straight to conspiracy charges.

[suddenly shaggy 929]

30 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Compelled by force to abandon his office sounds good too. 

That would be political suicide for themselves and for the GOP. Anyone paying even a modicum of attention to McConnell knows full well what he will choose.

Trump will never leave office willingly and McConnell will never stand up to him, or try to force him out. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

McConnell has kinda proven he will do anything if the price is right. 

[David Dennison 18646]

38 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Compelled by force to abandon his office sounds good too. 

You are on fire.

[suddenly shaggy 929]

8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

McConnell has kinda proven he will do anything if the price is right. 

Yes, and the price for standing up to Trump is killing his own career, plus any earning potential once he's out of office, while splintering the GOP with the bulk of it against him. McConnell will never pay that price. 

[Anastasis 23390]

24 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Note that the Russian Internet Research Agency (IRA) was a separate prong of the attack than the coordinated hack and release of emails through wikileaks.  The latter is what the Roger Stone indictments are about and ties directly to unnamed individuals in the Trump campaign.

 Also, keep in mind lying and obstruction were likely used to hide facts and evidence to prevent feds from going straight to conspiracy charges.

None of which is really relevant to the point that GOP Senators needed a clear and compelling statement from Mueller regarding conspiracy to provide cover for removal from office.  That point is squarely focused on the politics of removal from office.  

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

When do the impeachment hearings start? 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

In season 4

[henrygandorf 29174]

53 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

McConnell has kinda proven he will do anything if the price is right. 

asked and answered, bubba.

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

4 hours ago, retread said:

I hope triple and DD are right, but I'm not optimistic. By late fall or early '20, the Mueller report will be ancient history.

The House could open impeachment at a later date, but the momentum has already slipped away from them imo.

You don't debut a new TV show in the middle of summer. The Dems need to time the start of impeachment proceedings before Trump starts his military action against Iran, but also when the most people are watching. That's probably around the start of college football season. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

sweeps.

[triplehorn 2664]

4 hours ago, retread said:

I hope triple and DD are right, but I'm not optimistic. By late fall or early '20, the Mueller report will be ancient history.

The House could open impeachment at a later date, but the momentum has already slipped away from them imo.

It's going to come roaring right back in early November when the Penguin's Roger Stone's traitor trial starts which directly implicates Trump campaign. 

Remember also that a couple weeks ago prosecutors made a sealed filing of new evidence for trial.  Stone acolyte Andrew Miller also testified to grand jury after the Mueller report came out.  Don't sleep on this.

 

[EuroHorn 3204]

Prosecutors unlikely to charge Trump Org executives, sources say

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/trump-organization-federal-prosecutors/index.html

[henrygandorf 29174]

7 minutes ago, EuroHorn said:

Prosecutors unlikely to charge Trump Org executives, sources say

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/trump-organization-federal-prosecutors/index.html

this is humorous to me, because it's one of the things that everyone knows happened (paying off women he slept with to keep quiet), he keeps denying (because trump), but they just weren't completely sure if it actually violated campaign finance law (which many people never thought it did).

the only person this is really bad news for seems to be cohen.