The Robert Mueller Investigation

[jimmyjazz 45546]

4A > 1A > 2A > 14A

Did I get that right, 'stasis?

Yeesh.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Anastasis 23393]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Groovy.  I agree.  Put a pin in it.

I mean, I may have lots of problems with sweetheart deals with defense contractors, and internal politics figuring in to promoting military officers, and flaws in conmbat training programs, etc.....but when the fucking Zeros are hitting us at Pearl, I say we focus on throwing everything we've got at the existential threat, and dealing with my pet issues (that are relevant to the overall situation) later.

False dilemma. Pretty sure that we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. And in fact, the time to implement meaningful FISA reform is right now. We just extended key components with a CR that terms in a few months.

Thought maybe you might appreciate a snippet from wheeler’s blog. Now I generally agree with many of her takes regarding the overarching issues related to FISA abuse. she has been an articulate advocate for these issues in her own unique way. I think that she has been adversarial and dismissive wrt to the issues related to the page application,  but now that she has read the report it appears she appreciates the substantial problems identified. To be honest, I think anybody that reads the FISA and Steele related chapters of the report and isn’t completely appalled has total shit for brains. Note that I strongly disagree with her headline and the suggestion that we should briefly pause the impeachment proceedings, but I do agree with the thrust of the commentary quoted. 
 

https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/12/10/with-release-of-doj-ig-fisa-report-democrats-should-pause-on-impeachment/

 

Plus, the FISA Report provides one basis for bipartisan work in the near term.

Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act was due to get reauthorized on December 15. That got extended 3 months in the continuing resolution, but it will need reauthorized at that point. Meanwhile, over the past year, evidence that FBI misused FISA under both Jim Comey (with this IG Report) and Chris Wray (with the earlier report on problems with 702).

I’ve been arguing since at least February — and more aggressively since September, when I got the first concrete descriptions of how much this report would focus on process issues at FBI — that this IG Report would present an opportunity to call more substantive review of FISA. I got pushback among allies, because Carter Page is such an unsympathetic person to Democrats. But I think the report really demonstrates that, no matter how unsympathetic he is, no matter how warranted the investigation into him, the FISA process used against him was appalling.

So the surveillance community, which previously was able to unite Jim Jordan and the most Progressive Dems, really ought to take a step back and propose a three-part fix for FISA, one that could guide the further audit of FISA Michael Horowitz announced and one that might implement immediate legislative fixes to known FISA problems. At least beginning those conversation would provide some of the people yelling most loudly at each other a chance to talk about something they claim to agree on.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Anastasis

[Brisketexan 104561]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Pretty sure that we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

I can only presume that you are 100% unfamiliar with the current state of the Republic.

We have demonstrated zero competency to do either of those things independently, much less together.  We are completely and entirely dysfunctional.  That's kind of the point and the problem here.

[Captainant 27442]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

False dilemma. Pretty sure that we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. And in fact, the time to implement meaningful FISA reform is right now. We just extended key components with a CR that terms in a few months.

Thought maybe you might appreciate a snippet from wheeler’s blog. Now I generally agree with many of her takes regarding the overarching issues related to FISA abuse. she has been an articulate advocate for these issues in her own unique way. I think that she has been adversarial and dismissive wrt to the issues related to the page application,  but she has read the report and appears to appreciate the substantial problems identified. To be honest, I think anybody that reads the FISA and Steele related chapters of the report and isn’t completely appalled has total shit for brains. Note that I strongly disagree with her headline and the suggestion that we should briefly pause the impeachment proceedings, but I do agree with the thrust of the commentary quoted. 
 

https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/12/10/with-release-of-doj-ig-fisa-report-democrats-should-pause-on-impeachment/

 

Plus, the FISA Report provides one basis for bipartisan work in the near term.

Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act was due to get reauthorized on December 15. That got extended 3 months in the continuing resolution, but it will need reauthorized at that point. Meanwhile, over the past year, evidence that FBI misused FISA under both Jim Comey (with this IG Report) and Chris Wray (with the earlier report on problems with 702).

I’ve been arguing since at least February — and more aggressively since September, when I got the first concrete descriptions of how much this report would focus on process issues at FBI — that this IG Report would present an opportunity to call more substantive review of FISA. I got pushback among allies, because Carter Page is such an unsympathetic person to Democrats. But I think the report really demonstrates that, no matter how unsympathetic he is, no matter how warranted the investigation into him, the FISA process used against him was appalling.

So the surveillance community, which previously was able to unite Jim Jordan and the most Progressive Dems, really ought to take a step back and propose a three-part fix for FISA, one that could guide the further audit of FISA Michael Horowitz announced and one that might implement immediate legislative fixes to known FISA problems. At least beginning those conversation would provide some of the people yelling most loudly at each other a chance to talk about something they claim to agree on.

Well, the most polarized and uninformed period in american politics is certainly the right time to address systematic failures in the FISA system. I definitely trust this executive branch to listen to the will of congress and comply with whatever legislation they pass. Definitely haven't seen rampant flaunting of the the rule of law and the will of the American people (via congress) being trampled through exercise of executive authority or anything.

I'm just curious why you think right now is the time to dig your heels in, when there's been more significant and alarming structural failures in our government and leadership that will only be addressed through oversight action. It's almost like you'd much rather deflect from actual investigation into trump's malfeasance and would like to muddy the water by conflating (legitimate) privacy issues, all because trump claimed he was spied on.

[wildcat09 29228]

Under a normal administration, the real scandal is what's legal. This ain't a normal administration and they've already demonstrated at every turn that they don't give a shit about what the law says. It's beyond naive to think they'd give a shit about any limitations on executive power enacted by FISA reform.

[Brisketexan 104561]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Under a normal administration, the real scandal is what's legal. This ain't a normal administration and they've already demonstrated at every turn that they don't give a shit about what the law says. It's beyond naive to think they'd give a shit about any limitations on executive power enacted by FISA reform.

Seriously.  Anastasis wants us to talk about how we can improve the processes/fix the defects of the Rule of Law.  The open question right now is whether we even HAVE the Rule of Law.  Let's settle that one, and then we'll talk about how it should work again.

[Anastasis 23393]

Some of You guys pushed back all along the way when I pointed out the potential for these abuses. That you push back now that they have been confirmed is not particularly surprising. 

[Brisketexan 104561]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Some of You guys pushed back all along the way when I pointed out the potential for these abuses. That you push back now that they have been confirmed is not particularly surprising. 

I've noted my concerns about the 4th amendment plenty of times through the years.

You're just not happy that you're getting called out on your incongruous bullshit.  It's not that you're wrong to be concerned about it; it's that your priorities are super-fucked.  You're bitching about the leaky faucet while the house is on fire.  We rightly think you're fucking nuts.

[wildcat09 29228]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Some of You guys pushed back all along the way when I pointed out the potential for these abuses. That you push back now that they have been confirmed is not particularly surprising. 

Oh fuck all the way off with this shit. 

[jimmyjazz 45546]

12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Some of You guys pushed back all along the way when I pointed out the potential for these abuses. That you push back now that they have been confirmed is not particularly surprising. 

I've been completely open to the idea of improving the law as it stands.  I am not at all interested in distracting from more dire concerns that currently face us.  Forest, trees, said it a million times, yada yada yada. 

[Brisketexan 104561]

21 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I've been completely open to the idea of improving the law as it stands.  I am not at all interested in distracting from more dire concerns that currently face us.  Forest, trees, said it a million times, yada yada yada. 

Look, motherfuckers, in the course of us desperately trying to get out of this burning house alive, Anastasis noticed that, like, ALL of the pictures on the wall are hung crooked...and  the fact that you aren't stopping to straighten them just shows that you don't really care about anything.

[Anastasis 23393]

27 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh fuck all the way off with this shit. 

Don’t worry we’ll come back to this in more detail. 

[Brisketexan 104561]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Don’t worry we’ll come back to this in more detail. 

Oh, we're confident that we will.

We're positive that you have binders full of alternate schematics describing all possible ways to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.  We anxiously await your 3-day seminar while the band plays....

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

While the plane was crashing, I noticed my tray table was defective.  I wrote the airline a sternly worded letter about this once I regained consciousness.

[Anastasis 23393]

6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

While the plane was crashing, I noticed my tray table was defective.  I wrote the airline a sternly worded letter about this once I regained consciousness.

Hi Hugo. Have you reassessed your prior view that Steele is the hero in this whole mess? Report pretty much out that delusion to rest. 

[jimmyjazz 45546]

In all seriousness, and not to diminish the greater good of guaranteeing personal liberty and properly constraining law enforcement, I'm not sure right now is at all a good time to be addressing 4A concerns.  With this Senate, this DOJ, and unfortunately these courts, things would most likely get worse, not better.

[Anastasis 23393]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

In all seriousness, and not to diminish the greater good of guaranteeing personal liberty and properly constraining law enforcement, I'm not sure right now is at all a good time to be addressing 4A concerns.  With this Senate, this DOJ, and unfortunately these courts, things would most likely get worse, not better.

Alright, Clayton. 

[Foosters 17727]

14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Hi Hugo. Have you reassessed your prior view that Steele is the hero in this whole mess? Report pretty much out that delusion to rest. 

Hi Anastasis. Of course that's your takeaway from all of this. 

[Anastasis 23393]

18 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Hi Anastasis. Of course that's your takeaway from all of this. 

Hi Fosters. Sorry to hear that you are still eating glue. 

[Foosters 17727]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Hi Fosters. Sorry to hear that you are still eating glue. 

3/10

[tantric superman 4667]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

False dilemma. Pretty sure that we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. And in fact, the time to implement meaningful FISA reform is right now. We just extended key components with a CR that terms in a few months.

Extra double false equivalence.  On the one hand you are dealing with the appropriateness of the investigation - the appropriateness of taking a strategic action against a possible criminal action.  On the other, you are dealing with the myriad of tactical decisions you make to further the investigation. You obviously don't want to be sloppy in terms of the on the ground evidence gathering -- the tactics.  But given the number of tactics used, mistakes are going to be made along the way.  The idea that you are equating the necessity to constantly develop best practices in terms of evidence gathering and the overall issue of the legitimacy of an investigation is problematic at best, and feeds into the disingenousness that this administration is constantly stoking.

 

[tantric superman 4667]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Some of You guys pushed back all along the way when I pointed out the potential for these abuses. That you push back now that they have been confirmed is not particularly surprising. 

Anastasis be serious, and y'all be like McNutty.

[jimmyjazz 45546]

51 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Alright, Clayton. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

So have Anastasis and trump figured out how to eliminate all this FISA abuse yet? Because I have full confidence that with the backing of our get things done president trump we can get this one done. 

[Brisketexan 104561]

So have Anastasis and trump figured out how to eliminate all this FISA abuse yet? Because I have full confidence that with the backing of our get things done president trump we can get this one done. 

Sorry, they’re too busy slaying the seedy payday loan industry.

Swam out front shoulda told ya.

[washparkhorn 9935]

To Anastasis' concern, the FBI will be audited on their FISA abuse.

Thankfully, the ACLU is able to walk and chew gum at the same time:

"When the Justice Department's Inspector General finds significant concerns regarding flawed surveillance applications concerning the president's campaign advisors, it is clear that this regime lacks basic safeguards and is in need of serious reform. While the report found that there wasn't an improper purpose or initiation of the investigation, it also found significant problems that are alarming from a civil liberties perspective. For instance, the litany of problems with the Carter Page surveillance applications demonstrates how the secrecy shrouding the government's one-sided FISA approval process breeds abuse. The concerns the Inspector General identifies apply to intrusive investigations of others, including especially Muslims, and far better safeguards against abuse are necessary.

The system requires fundamental reforms, and Congress can start by providing defendants subjected to FISA surveillance the opportunity to review the government's secret submissions. The FBI must also adopt higher standards for investigations involving constitutionally protected sensitive activities, such as political campaigns."

It's good to see that the ACLU's strong concerns about unwarranted surveillance are not affected by their opinions about who is affected. 

https://reason.com/2019/12/10/the-fbi-will-be-audited-to-see-how-frequently-they-screw-up-other-fisa-warrants/

[Biff Tannen 45491]

6 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

To Anastasis' concern, the FBI will be audited on their FISA abuse.

Thankfully, the ACLU is able to walk and chew gum at the same time:

"When the Justice Department's Inspector General finds significant concerns regarding flawed surveillance applications concerning the president's campaign advisors, it is clear that this regime lacks basic safeguards and is in need of serious reform. While the report found that there wasn't an improper purpose or initiation of the investigation, it also found significant problems that are alarming from a civil liberties perspective. For instance, the litany of problems with the Carter Page surveillance applications demonstrates how the secrecy shrouding the government's one-sided FISA approval process breeds abuse. The concerns the Inspector General identifies apply to intrusive investigations of others, including especially Muslims, and far better safeguards against abuse are necessary.

The system requires fundamental reforms, and Congress can start by providing defendants subjected to FISA surveillance the opportunity to review the government's secret submissions. The FBI must also adopt higher standards for investigations involving constitutionally protected sensitive activities, such as political campaigns."

It's good to see that the ACLU's strong concerns about unwarranted surveillance are not affected by their opinions about who is affected. 

https://reason.com/2019/12/10/the-fbi-will-be-audited-to-see-how-frequently-they-screw-up-other-fisa-warrants/

There ya go Anastasis.  Can we drop this now?

[washparkhorn 9935]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

There ya go Anastasis.  Can we drop this now?

Well, . . . no. A properly functioning Congress should reconsider reform of FISA procedures. Earlier efforts were blocked by blockheads screaming "national security." Now that we have the national security apparatus clearly abusing the process, it is time to apply the brakes. The good news with that is you might actually have a President willing to sign a bill that reforms the process. Or not. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

Anastasis has - for more than a decade - been a strong advocate for civil liberties. That is his lane.

9.11 brought about a large rollback of civil liberties. This should not be a partisan issue. 

[triplehorn 2664]

I’m a vacuum, not a partisan issue.  The long-standing pattern we’re all too familiar with, however, has been for that person to use it as a deflection shield to avoid acknowledging the reality of far more emergent threats, i.e. that the current WH occupant takes orders from a guy who murders and jails journalists and political opponents in his country and who is the political face and hand of a brutal transnational criminal organization.

[Anastasis 23393]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

To Anastasis' concern, the FBI will be audited on their FISA abuse.

Thankfully, the ACLU is able to walk and chew gum at the same time:

"When the Justice Department's Inspector General finds significant concerns regarding flawed surveillance applications concerning the president's campaign advisors, it is clear that this regime lacks basic safeguards and is in need of serious reform. While the report found that there wasn't an improper purpose or initiation of the investigation, it also found significant problems that are alarming from a civil liberties perspective. For instance, the litany of problems with the Carter Page surveillance applications demonstrates how the secrecy shrouding the government's one-sided FISA approval process breeds abuse. The concerns the Inspector General identifies apply to intrusive investigations of others, including especially Muslims, and far better safeguards against abuse are necessary.

The system requires fundamental reforms, and Congress can start by providing defendants subjected to FISA surveillance the opportunity to review the government's secret submissions. The FBI must also adopt higher standards for investigations involving constitutionally protected sensitive activities, such as political campaigns."

It's good to see that the ACLU's strong concerns about unwarranted surveillance are not affected by their opinions about who is affected. 

https://reason.com/2019/12/10/the-fbi-will-be-audited-to-see-how-frequently-they-screw-up-other-fisa-warrants/

I stated quite a few pages ago that my hope out of all this was that fisa reform would result. We have a better chance of that now than we did before the investigation and report. I mean, at least it is not a non zero chance. That has to count for something maybe. 
 

4thamendmentcrucixionbrightersideoflifemontepython.gif

[GW Hayduke 1952]

If you haven’t experienced the tender soft meat from a chicken, then you just don’t understand what motivates Anastasis

 

[Anastasis 23393]

13 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

If you haven’t experienced the tender soft meat from a chicken, then you just don’t understand what motivates Anastasis

 

 

[HenryJames 65887]

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

8 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

If you haven’t experienced the tender soft meat from a chicken, then you just don’t understand what motivates Anastasis

 

If it's poultry time:

 

[washparkhorn 9935]

Charlie Savage of the NYT on the FISA issue:

While clearing the F.B.I. of acting out of political bias, the Justice Department’s independent inspector general,

Michael E. Horowitz, and his team uncovered a staggeringly dysfunctional and error-ridden process in how the F.B.I. went about obtaining and renewing court permission under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, to wiretap Carter Page, a former Trump campaign adviser.

“The litany of problems with the Carter Page surveillance applications demonstrates how the secrecy shrouding the government’s one-sided FISA approval process breeds abuse,” said Hina Shamsi, the director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project. “The concerns the inspector general identifies apply to intrusive investigations of others, including especially Muslims, and far better safeguards against abuse are necessary.”

Congress enacted FISA in 1978 to regulate domestic surveillance for national-security investigations — monitoring suspected spies and terrorists, as opposed to ordinary criminals. Investigators must persuade a judge on a special court that a target is probably an agent of a foreign power. In 2018, there were 1,833 targets of such orders, including 232 Americans.

Most of those targets never learn that their privacy has been invaded, but some are sent to prison on the basis of evidence derived from the surveillance. And unlike in ordinary criminal wiretap cases, defendants are not permitted to see what investigators told the court about them to obtain permission to eavesdrop on their calls and emails.

Civil libertarians for years have called the surveillance court a rubber stamp because it only rarely rejects wiretap applications. Out of 1,080 requests by the government in 2018, for example, government records showed that the court fully denied only one.

Defenders of the system have argued that the low rejection rate stems in part from how well the Justice Department self-polices and avoids presenting the court with requests that fall short of the legal standard. They have also stressed that officials obey a heightened duty to be candid and provide any mitigating evidence that might undercut their request.

But the inspector general found major errors, material omissions and unsupported statements about Mr. Page in the materials that went to the court. F.B.I. agents cherry-picked the evidence, telling the Justice Department information that made Mr. Page look suspicious and omitting material that cut the other way, and the department passed that misleading portrait onto the court. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/we-just-got-a-rare-look-at-national-security-surveillance-it-was-ugly/ar-AAK1QRS

It is time to convene a Church Commission to look at intelligence agency misdeeds again. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

The Church Committee - http://csweb.brookings.edu/content/research/essays/2014/big-snoop.html

Watergate shocked the American public and spurred many of its representatives in Congress to demand an investigation into the past activities of both organizations as well as the NSA and others. The result was the creation of two congressional committees in 1975, chaired by Frank Church (D-ID) in the Senate and Otis Pike (D-N.Y.) in the House of Representatives.

Their hearings exposed secret, arguably illegal wiretapping, bugging, and harassment of American citizens, including Supreme Court justices, reporters, and government officials, all in the name of collecting intelligence about threats to national security. The most notorious case, first exposed in the 1960s and fully documented by the Church Committee, was the wiretapping of Martin Luther King, Jr. by the NSA and by the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover, who believed him to be part of a Communist conspiracy.

Too much power unchecked and the FISA Court hamstrung. 

[jimmyjazz 45546]

It's interesting how people keep spinning Horowitz' findings in a manner that in no way represents . . . Horowitz' findings.

Come on, washparkhorn.  We know you're a Libertarian stooge, but "Michael E. Horowitz, and his team uncovered a staggeringly dysfunctional and error-ridden process in how the F.B.I. went about obtaining and renewing court permission under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA" ???

That's not even close to the truth.  Literally, be better.  You don't even have to try for "best", you just need to be better.

For fuck's sake, this country is done.  

[washparkhorn 9935]

FFS - jimmy jazz, this is an article by Charlie f'in Savage (NYT/MSNBC). It quotes the ACLU. READ FFS. One can dislike the President and still find FISA abuse. 

[Anastasis 23393]

gaslighting. 

[jimmyjazz 45546]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

FFS - jimmy jazz, this is an article by Charlie f'in Savage (NYT/MSNBC). It quotes the ACLU. READ FFS. One can dislike the President and still find FISA abuse. 

I have read, and I find that summary way the fuck off base.  "FFS".

[Anastasis 23393]

22 hours ago, Anastasis said:

To be honest, I think anybody that reads the FISA and Steele related chapters of the report and isn’t completely appalled has total shit for brains. 

 

[washparkhorn 9935]

The IG report has primarily been interpreted through a Trump lens. But if we shelve politics for a moment and focus on surveillance policy & civil liberties issues, what it revealed about the FBI's national-security wiretapping powers is devastating. - The author Charlie Savage. 

What are you missing JJ?

[jimmyjazz 45546]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

 

I find it the height of irony that you get pissy when people call you out yet you routinely impugn any and everyone's intelligence if they remotely disagree with you.

Be better, son. 

[jimmyjazz 45546]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

The IG report has primarily been interpreted through a Trump lens. But if we shelve politics for a moment and focus on surveillance policy & civil liberties issues, what it revealed about the FBI's national-security wiretapping powers is devastating. - The author Charlie Savage. 

What are you missing JJ?

I'm missing nothing.  The ACLU and our local "Libertarians" routinely fail to separate law from dreams and we suffer the ignominy of repetitive, deflective bullshit as a result.

[Anastasis 23393]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

I find it the height of irony that you get pissy when people call you out yet you routinely impugn any and everyone's intelligence if they remotely disagree with you.

Be better, son. 

Have you read the relevant chapters I am referring to?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Anastasis

[jimmyjazz 45546]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Have you read the relevant chapters I am referring to?

I've read both documents -- I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to but regardless I don't have the docs here at work.  Nothing has ever alarmed me even close to the level that it apparently alarms you.

You need to get it through your extraordinarily thick skull that people can take a higher perspective on the situation, considering current statutes, and come away with a different viewpoint.  But no, you'll never do that.

[washparkhorn 9935]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

You need to get it through your extraordinarily thick skull that people can take a higher perspective on the situation, considering current statutes, and come away with a different viewpoint.  But no, you'll never do that.

Well the experts disagree with you - from the same article you read by NYT Savage:

 

Quote

His exposé left some former officials who generally defend government surveillance practices aghast.

“These errors are bad,” said David Kris, an expert in FISA who oversaw the Justice Department’s National Security Division in the Obama administration. “If the broader audit of FISA applications reveals a systematic pattern of errors of this sort that plagued this one, then I would expect very serious consequences and reforms.”

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by washparkhorn
Freudian slip

[jimmyjazz 45546]

I can find just as many if not more experienced officials who have gone on record saying the opposite.  They've been plenty vocal over the past few days.

The overarching point here is that the process is not our biggest threat.  I don't have a problem with efforts to improve the process.  I'm not even a big Patriot Act guy and never have been.  That said, within current statute, the report is clear -- no political bias motivated the surveillance and the findings speak for themselves.