The Robert Mueller Investigation

[notre dame joe 187]

12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Nobody is dying on a hill for Carter Page.  He is just the case study that draws some serious abu

In the other example, not vetting political opposition research and failure to recognize that it contained elements of disinformation immediately was an error. Using that information, after previously being denied approval, to meet the probable cause standard for surveillance in a political context was an error. They figured it out eventually, that the information was unreliable, but of course it was spread both covertly and publicly to effect political ends even after if was assessed to be rubbish.

  

You think the FBI made an honest mistake?

[TwiceHorn 31465]

The FBI is a dirty organization in the sense that most law-enforcement agencies are dirty, and in exactly the same way:  they will do whatever is expedient to secure the conviction when they can get away with it.

The defendants they pursue and the reasons they pursue them are often the result of strange political machinations not usually present in more local LEAs.  Its internal politics can be pretty toxic, as well, because there is often more at stake and its members are better educated and more sophisticated than most LEO.

It's an odd organization and it needs to be de-powered.

Edited April 30, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[David Dennison 18856]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The FBI is a dirty organization in the sense that most law-enforcement agencies are dirty, and in exactly the same way:  they will do whatever is expedient to secure the conviction when they can get away with it.

The defendants they pursue and the reasons they pursue them are often the result of strange political machinations not usually present in more local LEAs.  Its internal politics can be pretty toxic, as well, because there is often more at stake and its members are better educated and more sophisticated than most LEO.

It's an odd organization and it needs to be de-powered.

Bingo. The FBI, like every single level of American law enforcement, is in dire need of reform.

[Anastasis 23469]

[notre dame joe 187]

52 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The FBI is a dirty organization in the sense that most law-enforcement agencies are dirty, and in exactly the same way:  they will do whatever is expedient to secure the conviction when they can get away with it.

The defendants they pursue and the reasons they pursue them are often the result of strange political machinations not usually present in more local LEAs.  Its internal politics can be pretty toxic, as well, because there is often more at stake and its members are better educated and more sophisticated than most LEO.

It's an odd organization and it needs to be de-powered.

 

36 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

AGREEMENT in the Cloak Room?

[Lagunamadre 1975]

Can somebody that speaks Trump/FoxNews help me understand on a legal basis how Flynn is exonerated in any of this? Isn't he charged with lying to the FBI? Does this change that he lied to the FBI? I'm confused by all of the Flynn exoneration talk. 

[wildcat09 29354]

1 hour ago, Lagunamadre said:

Can somebody that speaks Trump/FoxNews help me understand on a legal basis how Flynn is exonerated in any of this? Isn't he charged with lying to the FBI? Does this change that he lied to the FBI? I'm confused by all of the Flynn exoneration talk. 

You see, lying to the FBI is only a crime if they don’t know you’re lying when you tell them the lie. If they know you’re lying then it’s just double counter subconscious espionage and it’s all good.

[Biff Tannen 45683]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You see, lying to the FBI is only a crime if they don’t know you’re lying when you tell them the lie. If they know you’re lying then it’s just double counter subconscious espionage and it’s all good.

It's merely a commentary on contemporary mores.

[Captainant 27664]

It's unfortunate that Carter fucking Page was the first FISA warrant that we got to see in such detail. I 100% agree that the FISA system is incredibly out of control and lacking oversight, and is undoubtedly abused on the regular to continue to piss on the grave of the 4th amendment. 

But for fucks sake, if you don't think that the trump admin is strategically releasing information to shape the current narrative on FISA you're a dumbass.

This week's Stay Tuned with Preet talks at length on the FISA process and on the Page warrant in particular and features a UT law prof, Steve Vladeck. Super informative and fact-based discussion, good listening

[Anastasis 23469]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

This week's Stay Tuned with Preet talks at length on the FISA process and on the Page warrant in particular and features a UT law prof, Steve Vladeck. Super informative and fact-based discussion, good listening

Would you summarize? Or link?

[StassneyHorn 6575]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fisa-follies-trumps-taxes-with-steve-vladeck/id1265845136?i=1000473121309

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Anastasis 23469]

20 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

It must be feel unfortunate for you to have a lack of Russian disinformation to spread.   

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Yeah, I’m devastated I can’t be cool.

[Anastasis 23469]

27 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yeah, I’m devastated I can’t be cool.

OK, dossier dude. 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

Does anyone without a Q in their twitter avatar actually give a fuck about Michael Flynn?

[notre dame joe 187]

13 hours ago, Lagunamadre said:

Can somebody that speaks Trump/FoxNews help me understand on a legal basis how Flynn is exonerated in any of this? Isn't he charged with lying to the FBI? Does this change that he lied to the FBI? I'm confused by all of the Flynn exoneration talk. 

It proves Entrapment.  And the general slimey nature of the Obama-Biden 'Justice' Dept.

[henrygandorf 29191]

yep, i always side with the guy who continued to plead guilty of lying to authorities (cough) maybe we’re just posturing for a trump pardon. 

give me a fucking break with the other theatrics. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21199]

I'm starting to think that a Notre Dame degree isn't as impressive as it's supposed to be. 

[Lagunamadre 1975]

9 hours ago, notre dame joe said:

It proves Entrapment.  And the general slimey nature of the Obama-Biden 'Justice' Dept.

Asking Flynn a question is entrapment? So if the FBI already knows the answer to the question they ask you and you lie to them, this is now not a crime? 

My question to you, do you think Flynn lied to the FBI? 

[GRHorn 105]

 

 

[Lagunamadre 1975]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

 

 

I read that article this morning, nothing in that article comes close to exonerating Flynn from lying to the FBI. I don't really give a shit one way or another what happens to Flynn but if we are a country of law and order, Flynn is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt. 

[NWBuck 8562]

8 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I'm starting to think that a Notre Dame degree isn't as impressive as it's supposed to be. 

Wait- so it starts out looking good and the falls apart as things progress?

Yeah, that's the Notre Dame I know.

[notre dame joe 187]

3 hours ago, Lagunamadre said:

Asking Flynn a question is entrapment? So if the FBI already knows the answer to the question they ask you and you lie to them, this is now not a crime? 

My question to you, do you think Flynn lied to the FBI? 

The released documents confirm they were there to set a perjury trap after they had already decided to stop the investigation because they had figured out Flynn wasn't a Russian agent. Peter S wanted it to keep going for his insurance policy.

 

The FBI didn't think Flynn lied to the FBI.

[DDD Dad 14339]

The released documents confirm they were there to set a perjury trap after they had already decided to stop the investigation because they had figured out Flynn wasn't a Russian agent. Peter S wanted it to keep going for his insurance policy.
 
The FBI didn't think Flynn lied to the FBI.

You know the term perjury trap isn’t really a thing, right?

[Biff Tannen 45683]

12 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

You know the term perjury trap isn’t really a thing, right?

Yuh huh!  It's like, when you lie but they were smarter than you so they knew you would lie, but you did anyway.  And that's mean.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Biff Tannen
these men are cowards

[Lagunamadre 1975]

35 minutes ago, notre dame joe said:

The released documents confirm they were there to set a perjury trap after they had already decided to stop the investigation because they had figured out Flynn wasn't a Russian agent. Peter S wanted it to keep going for his insurance policy.

 

The FBI didn't think Flynn lied to the FBI.

1) Perjury trap isn't a legal thing. If somebody sets a "perjury trap" and catches somebody, that person is still guilty of perjury, that's how the law works. That's akin to telling your buddy "I got a ticket for going 100 in a 30, but I'm going to get off because the cop was setting a speed trap". 

2) Regarding setting the trap? How did the FBI know Flynn would lie about his contacts with the Russians? When they asked him about his conversation, he lied about it, how did they know he would lie about it? Why did he lie about it? 

3) The FBI handwritten notes have one sentence that he did not have the appearance of somebody who is lying, i.e. no stumbling over words, eyes looking up, fidgety, etc. So that is a pretty ginormous extrapolation to take one contemporaneous note from one agent and apply that the entirety of the FBI. They knew he was lying the second he lied, they already knew the answers to the questions. They charged him with lying. He pled guilty to it, under oath to a judge. 

 

Flynn fucking lied, to the FBI. That is a crime in this country. He will not get off. None of the bullshit that has come out changes the fact that he lied to Federal officers. Do the crime, pay the time. Or was Flynn would say/chant "lock him up, lock him up". 

[Anastasis 23469]

26 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

Flynn fucking lied, to the FBI. That is a crime in this country. He will not get off.

Andy McCabe laughs in your general direction. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Masterful false equivalency both sides, as usual.

[Anastasis 23469]

13 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Masterful false equivalency both sides, as usual.

OK, dossier dude. 

[David Dennison 18856]

57 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Andy McCabe laughs in your general direction. 

Yeah, but DOJ didn't think they had a case.

They had a case against Flynn, obviously.

[Anastasis 23469]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Yeah, but DOJ didn't think they had a case.

They had a case against Flynn, obviously.

Lol. Right. You have any idea what possible confounding relationships might have influenced those decisions? 

[David Dennison 18856]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Lol. Right. You have any idea what possible confounding relationships might have influenced those decisions? 

Considering who the Attorney General is and who the president is, I'm thinking they couldn't make a case against ol' Andy McCabe.

[Anastasis 23469]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Considering who the Attorney General is and who the president is, I'm thinking they couldn't make a case against ol' Andy McCabe.

Please point out all the meaningful distinctions between the legal merits of the Flynn case and the McCabe case. 
 

I was told lying to the fbi was bad. 
 

sorry for trying to expect some consistency with the application of that. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Anastasis

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Please point out all the meaningful distinctions between the legal merits of the Flynn case and the McCabe case. 
 

I was told lying to the fbi was bad. 
 

sorry for trying to expect some consistency with the application of that. 

There might not be any legal distinctions. There might be factual distinctions that convinced at least one U.S. attorney that he or she could not convince a jury to convict. 

Andy McCabe was not prosecuted because someone in a position of authority did not think they could get a conviction.

[elguapo 4586]

2 hours ago, notre dame joe said:

The released documents confirm they were there to set a perjury trap after they had already decided to stop the investigation because they had figured out Flynn wasn't a Russian agent. Peter S wanted it to keep going for his insurance policy.

 

The FBI didn't think Flynn lied to the FBI.

this is your brain on bleach

[DDD Dad 14339]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Please point out all the meaningful distinctions between the legal merits of the Flynn case and the McCabe case. 
 

I was told lying to the fbi was bad. 
 

sorry for trying to expect some consistency with the application of that. 

 

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

There might not be any legal distinctions. There might be factual distinctions that convinced at least one U.S. attorney that he or she could not convince a jury to convict. 

Andy McCabe was not prosecuted because someone in a position of authority did not think they could get a conviction.

[Anastasis 23469]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

 

Figured you lawyers could figure something out. Maybe not. 

[TwiceHorn 31465]

18 hours ago, notre dame joe said:

It proves Entrapment.  And the general slimey nature of the Obama-Biden 'Justice' Dept.

It doesn't prove entrapment.

All of the perjury statutes require a false MATERIAL statement.  There is an argument that a question designed to elicit a false answer, implying that the truth is known, yields a false IMMATERIAL statement.  The courts haven't bought into this very heavily, if at all, although it's usually an argument made in defense of perjury before a grand jury, who does not usually know the truth, so it's material to them if not the prosecutors/investigators.

The second factor is prosecutorial misconduct by failing to disclose everything.  This can be like a Fourth Amendment violation in that it vitiates the prosecution without regard to actual guilt.  I'm not sure it rises to that level.

 

[TwiceHorn 31465]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

There might not be any legal distinctions. There might be factual distinctions that convinced at least one U.S. attorney that he or she could not convince a jury to convict. 

Andy McCabe was not prosecuted because someone in a position of authority did not think they could get a conviction.

I'm sure ability to convict played a large part; it always does.  But the FBI and DOJ do seem to be acutely conscious of who they prosecute.  Kind of like local law enforcement when it comes to cops.

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

9 hours ago, Lagunamadre said:

Asking Flynn a question is entrapment? So if the FBI already knows the answer to the question they ask you and you lie to them, this is now not a crime? 

My question to you, do you think Flynn lied to the FBI? 

Respectfully, when you engage Joe, you have already lost.

[Poolflood 845]

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

There might not be any legal distinctions. There might be factual distinctions that convinced at least one U.S. attorney that he or she could not convince a jury to convict. 

Andy McCabe was not prosecuted because someone in a position of authority did not think they could get a conviction.

Your avatar needs more orange.

 

 

Your intellect needs more honesty.

[JimmyJames 12271]

21 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Does anyone without a Q in their twitter avatar actually give a fuck about Michael Flynn?

Who is he again?

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Andy McCabe laughs in your general direction. 

Who Is that?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

The most baffling about Flynn is he’s clearly still valuable to someone, but why?  He was the perfect fall guy for Trump, but you’d think Flynn was one of Trump’s kids based on his recent statements.  

[notre dame joe 187]

4 quotes in one afternoon, the cult is riled.

 

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It doesn't prove entrapment.

All of the perjury statutes require a false MATERIAL statement.  There is an argument that a question designed to elicit a false answer, implying that the truth is known, yields a false IMMATERIAL statement.  The courts haven't bought into this very heavily, if at all, although it's usually an argument made in defense of perjury before a grand jury, who does not usually know the truth, so it's material to them if not the prosecutors/investigators.

The second factor is prosecutorial misconduct by failing to disclose everything.  This can be like a Fourth Amendment violation in that it vitiates the prosecution without regard to actual guilt.  I'm not sure it rises to that level.

 

I said they would never get a conviction, especially if that evidence had been given to the defense.  All Flynn needed to do was explain as an intelligence official he speaks to people on a need to know basis and these agents from a different department did not need to know.  They pressured Flynn into pleading by threatening to go after his son and bleeding him dry paying his lawyers.  Federal defense Lawyers aren't cheap.   

 

They did not say why they thought they could never get a conviction on McCabe.  I think it is because the jury pool would be Washington DC where 90% think he's a bloody hero.

Edited May 2, 2020 by notre dame joe

[Paul Wesley 3278]

12 hours ago, GRHorn said:

 

 

That’s an opinion piece.  It’s not news.  
 

And there’s not really anything in it to support the headline.  
 

Again, why defend a guy who took half a million dollars from Turkey and decided to hide that from the agencies designed to determine who’s acting on behalf of foreign interests? 
 

Flynn knew god damn well how improper that was.  
 

Separate from that, he lied about numerous conversations with Russian agents hostile to America.  
 

Tell me again how he’s no longer a traitor or a liar?

[Paul Wesley 3278]

Also — in regards to that author getting to “Strozk and Page” right out of the fucking gate — it occurs to me that Marcia Clark and Chris Darden also had an affair, but that didn’t make OJ less of a murderous, shitty human being. 

[TwiceHorn 31465]

One can find the FBI's tactics offensive without approving of the defendant against which they are deployed.

[Paul Wesley 3278]

Sure.  I agree with that.  But why is the “law and order” party suddenly offended by prosecutors intentionally catching criminals in a lie?