Osteopaths

[TwiceHorn 31440]

So, I think many years ago, "osteopaths," or doctors of osteopathic medicine, were regarded about the same as chiropractors:  legit within the mainstream, kooky and quacky outside of it, understanding that osteopaths practiced more general medicine than chiros.

 

Now, UNT "owns" the Texas osteopathic medical school.  Michigan State has theirs.  DOs are everywhere and may outnumber MD "family practitioners" on insurance provider lists.

 

For the most part, it seems DOs are those who couldn't get into regular medical schools and didn't want to go Caribbean.

 

Are any of the foregoing statements inaccurate?  What is the surl opinion of DOs?

[futureman 22444]

DOs can be just fine.  I know some solid orthopedists in town who are DOs.  good surgeons and busy.  definitely not chiropractors.  

[GreenspointTexas 9598]

I know a shit ton of DO’s. A few are great, but most DOs cant hold a candle next to the average MD

[TwiceHorn 31440]

24 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

I know a shit ton of DO’s. A few are great, but most DOs cant hold a candle next to the average MD

Elaborate on "hold a candle."  Do the MDs in question provide better care than the DOs in question?  Potentially better care?  Are just generally sharper?

[TwiceHorn 31440]

1 hour ago, futureman said:

DOs can be just fine.  I know some solid orthopedists in town who are DOs.  good surgeons and busy.  definitely not chiropractors.  

From what I know (and I do know a bit), orthopedics and ortho surgery is all about residency and fellowships and related postgrad training.  I suppose a DO can get a good residency or fellowship?

[futureman 22444]

yes.  maybe not as easily as MD programs, but yes.  a lot of shit doctors went to harvard and a lot of great doctors went to texas tech. 

[futureman 22444]

twicehorn has your insurance plan recommended you a DO and you’re wondering if they’re legitimate or what

[TwiceHorn 31440]

No, I just went many years being ignorant of osteopaths.  But now that UNT "owns" that DO school in Fort Worth, it is more prominent and there are a shitload of DO providers on my insurance list (there are either more of them than I was previously aware, or they are more likely to take shit obamacare plans).  Been a curiosity to me for a while.

[MobstaM 8]

I am a MD. My wife is a DO. I graduated med school in 2006.

From a knowledge perspective, MD and DO schools teach basically the same breadth of information. MD schools are more competitive to get into and DOs schools tend to be less so (and are still probably back-up schools for people who can’t or didn’t get into a MD school).

Really, the big difference is that DOs learn osteopathic manipulation, which based on my limited exposure is part legitimate and part quackery (a little to chiropractor-ish in my opinion). Most DOs out in the real world don’t seem to practice it, though, and most practice medicine in a very similar fashion to a MD. Nowadays, in my experience, there’s really not much difference between how a MD and how a DO practices medicine.

I think the lines between the two will become even more blurred as the residency matches for the two merge into one one (i.e. may see more and more DOs doing their residency in MD residency programs).

I know a bunch of worthless MDs and a bunch of really sharp DOs (and vice versa). Ultimately, it’s a personal choice and you should choose someone who you feel has your best interest in mind, regardless of title.

[David Dennison 18851]

Don't MDs and DOs take the same licensing exams?

[UDontKnow 10441]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Don't MDs and DOs take the same licensing exams?

Allopathic (MDs) take the USMLEs and the Osteopaths (DOs) take the COMLEXs. Now to become board certified (BC) after residency training, an MD or a DO takes the board exam offered by the board of their specialty (e.g. ACOG which is American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology). To be board eligible (BE) to sit for a board exam, one must have passed all of their USMLEs or COMLEXs and successfully completed residency training.

Having taken USMLEs and seen sample questions of the COMLEXs, there is no question that USMLEs are harder. What was unfair for a long time (and what will end in 2020) is that the osteopaths were able to apply for the residency match for both MDs and DOs while the allopaths were restricted to the MD residency match. In 2020, it will become one universal match system for both MD and DO graduates (as it should be). 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by UDontKnow

[David Dennison 18851]

3 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Allopathic (MDs) take the USMLEs and the Osteopaths (DOs) take the COMLEXs. Now to become board certified (BC) after residency training, an MD or a DO takes the board exam offered by the board of their specialty (e.g. ACOG which is American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology). To be board eligible (BE) to sit for a board exam, one must have passed all of their USMLEs or COMLEXs and successfully completed residency training.

And every MD or DO has to pass a board exam to practice medicine in Texas?

Edited April 22, 2018 by David Dennison

[UDontKnow 10441]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

And every MD or DO has to pass a board exam to practice medicine in Texas?

Nope. I've seen a lot of physicians in the state/VA system not be board certified, but board eligible. You can get a medical license during residency after passing the final USMLE or COMLEX exam. Heck, I've seen older physicians that have not passed the final exam but have been practicing so long that they don't care about the final licensing exam and/or the subsequent board exam.

[David Dennison 18851]

2 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Nope. I've seen a lot of physicians in the state/VA system not be board certified, but board eligible. You can get a medical license during residency after passing the final USMLE or COMLEX exam. Heck, I've seen older physicians that have not passed the final exam but have been practicing so long that they don't care about the final licensing exam and/or the subsequent board exam.

Thanks for the explanation.

[futureman 22444]

33 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Allopathic (MDs) take the USMLEs and the Osteopaths (DOs) take the COMLEXs. Now to become board certified (BC) after residency training, an MD or a DO takes the board exam offered by the board of their specialty (e.g. ACOG which is American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology). To be board eligible (BE) to sit for a board exam, one must have passed all of their USMLEs or COMLEXs and successfully completed residency training.

Having taken USMLEs and seen sample questions of the COMLEXs, there is no question that USMLEs are harder. What was unfair for a long time (and what will end in 2020) is that the osteopaths were able to apply for the residency match for both MDs and DOs while the allopaths were restricted to the MD residency match. In 2020, it will become one universal match system for both MD and DO graduates (as it should be). 

 

 

acronyms are fun. 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

Thanks for the input. Answered some questions that I hadn't even thought of, yet.

[GSU&UT 1798]

I was talking with my MIL a couple of months ago whose father taught at a DO school in the LA area a long time ago. I never assumed it was quackery like most chiropractors (which I could vent about for hours) but rather a lot more specialized. She basically laid out what UDontKnow and MobstaM said, they're taught basically the same curriculum as MD students. 

5 hours ago, MobstaM said:

Really, the big difference is that DOs learn osteopathic manipulation, which based on my limited exposure is part legitimate and part quackery (a little to chiropractor-ish in my opinion). Most DOs out in the real world don’t seem to practice it, though, and most practice medicine in a very similar fashion to a MD. 

I didn't know this, it seems odd given how DOs practice. Is there any reason why this is still taught? Is it to simply keep DO programs somewhat distinct from MD programs? Also, given how medical schools have intentionally kept their enrollment down for a long time despite an ever increasing need for doctors in the US, do you foresee DO schools becoming increasingly popular or medical schools letting more students in?

[UDontKnow 10441]

29 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

I was talking with my MIL a couple of months ago whose father taught at a DO school in the LA area a long time ago. I never assumed it was quackery like most chiropractors (which I could vent about for hours) but rather a lot more specialized. She basically laid out what UDontKnow and MobstaM said, they're taught basically the same curriculum as MD students. 

I didn't know this, it seems odd given how DOs practice. Is there any reason why this is still taught? Is it to simply keep DO programs somewhat distinct from MD programs? Also, given how medical schools have intentionally kept their enrollment down for a long time despite an ever increasing need for doctors in the US, do you foresee DO schools becoming increasingly popular or medical schools letting more students in?

I am biased as an MD, but I feel the osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) component of their education is still maintained to keep them unique. Personally, I have not met any graduates that actually practice this.  

Medical schools are actually expanding their class sizes and in the last 10 years, several new allopathic medical schools have opened up. I have heard that many private DO schools are similar to Caribbean medical schools in that they have become profit-driven in that they generate many more graduates than there are residency positions and not really paying attention to the rate of their graduates getting into residency training. Reminder, this is what I have heard. 

This year the match rate into residency for graduates of American medical schools was 94%and it is down from recent previous years where the number was 98-99%. I am not sure if this number includes both allopathic and osteopathic graduates. It is, however, alarming that someone spends 4 years time studying and racks up six figures of debt has the prospect of going unemployed after graduation. Medicare funds the majority of residency training and Medicaid contributes to a lesser extent. What I have seen and heard is that a lot of foreign medical graduates (FMG, meaning non-US citizens that studied in their home countries) and international medical graduates (US citizens that studied in the Caribbean and other foreign countries) are getting left out in the cold. It is a complex situation as foreign and international medical graduates are more willing to train in less desirable hospitals and geographic areas than most American graduates, but now American graduates are getting pushed towards those less desirable hospitals at the risk of getting left without a residency.

The other thing is that eventually all specialties will become competitive to match into if the government continues its trend of not expanding the number of residency training positions. I have read several explanations regarding medical disparities--about how there are not enough doctors. But there are competing views that there the doctor shortage is largely due to uneven geographic distribution of doctors. Many physicians after completing residency training want to reside in certain areas of the country---not all of them want to be rural or inner city practitioners. (Shocking!) This leads to the can of worms about the rising number of mid-level providers (physician assistants and nurse practitioners) and whether they are qualified to deliver certain types of care, etc. 

To answer OPs question, DO school may become more popular in that more people will try to go down that route (as opposed to the Caribbean). They are already taking more students, but the question is will all of their graduates get into residency? I definitely see multiple scenarios occurring down the line where it will be required to be a US citizen/permanent resident to apply for residency and a lot more medical graduates are forced to residencies in specialties and regions of the countries that they do not want to do.

[triplelonghorn 27]

My wife is a DO and she's the head of a department at a top hospital.

She doesn't like osteopathic manipulation and thinks it's BS, but I was listening in science Friday last week and they had the scientist on who discovered that new organ recently, and he said its existence makes it look like osteopaths were right all along about some of their claims that MDs had been dismissive of. Also suggested the same regarding acupuncture.

Personally I try and go to DOs for whatever specialist I need because given the historic discrimination against them, I figure all other things being held equal, an MS and a DO in the same position, the DO is probably better because of having to prove themselves more to overcome the stigma.

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[UDontKnow 10441]

28 minutes ago, triplelonghorn said:

My wife is a DO and she's the head of a department at a top hospital.

She doesn't like osteopathic manipulation and thinks it's BS, but I was listening in science Friday last week and they had the scientist on who discovered that new organ recently, and he said its existence makes it look like osteopaths were right all along about some of their claims that MDs had been dismissive of. Also suggested the same regarding acupuncture.

Personally I try and go to DOs for whatever specialist I need because given the historic discrimination against them, I figure all other things being held equal, an MS and a DO in the same position, the DO is probably better because of having to prove themselves more to overcome the stigma.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Pussy is undefeated.

If your reasoning holds true, you should ideally go to a female physician that studied medicine in a third world Islamic country with a physical handicap that made it as a practicing physician in the US because given "the historic discrimination" against someone from her gender, ethnic, religious, and functional backgrounds, she had to "prove" herself "more to overcome the stigma." 

The DO stigma is there because of multiple things including the insistence of osteopathic manipulation in their curriculum so that they can stand apart from the allopathic curriculum, the fact that their average admission requirements (GPA and MCAT) are on the whole lower than allopathic medical schools, and that their medical licensing exams are a joke compared to allopathic medical licensing exams. So in reality, a lot less to overcome considering their pathway into medicine is and was a whole lot easier. That being said, there are several awesome DOs in various medical specialties. But you don't go to a physician because of the two letters behind his/her name, you go because of their qualifications to treat medical conditions which is more of a function of their postgraduate training and that individual's commitment to delivering good clinical medicine.

And the new organ is really not "new." It was two separate components (interstitial tissue and interstitial fluid) together (interstitium) that are now being functionally viewed as organs. With new research, the components appears to function more so in a system. Remember, cells comprise tissues, tissues comprise organs.   https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/27/health/new-organ-interstitium-study/index.html

[pevodog 14]

My daughter and SIL are both DO’s. They couples matched to the same hospital , she in General Surgery and him in OB/ Gyn.They both got the first choice.


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[kevwun 15765]

My regular doctor is an Osteopath.  I like him.  Usually the only time I go to see him is when something hurts for a long time and isn't going away.  He's really good at diagnosing and fixing stuff like that.

[naija 2854]

At best, degrees and where people trained are approximations of whether someone is a good doc or not. I truly feel for the layman that needs an operation and wants to know exactly what the capability of their surgeon is.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

4 minutes ago, naija said:

At best, degrees and where people trained are approximations of whether someone is a good doc or not. I truly feel for the layman that needs an operation and wants to know exactly what the capability of their surgeon is.

While not a physician, I agree about academics/schools only telling part of the story in most if not all fields.

[Gil Bang 25921]

I've got a couple of hundred surgeons in my database that were either clients, or prospective clients.   Less than 10 of them are DO's.  

 

That's in SoCal, FL, and PA.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

A lot of international (foreign) students who don't want to wait to establish residency often go DO. Typically it's extremely difficult for non green card holders to get into Medical schools.

 

 

[triplelonghorn 27]

Pussy is undefeated.

If your reasoning holds true, you should ideally go to a female physician that studied medicine in a third world Islamic country with a physical handicap that made it as a practicing physician in the US because given "the historic discrimination" against someone from her gender, ethnic, religious, and functional backgrounds, she had to "prove" herself "more to overcome the stigma." 

The DO stigma is there because of multiple things including the insistence of osteopathic manipulation in their curriculum so that they can stand apart from the allopathic curriculum, the fact that their average admission requirements (GPA and MCAT) are on the whole lower than allopathic medical schools, and that their medical licensing exams are a joke compared to allopathic medical licensing exams. So in reality, a lot less to overcome considering their pathway into medicine is and was a whole lot easier. That being said, there are several awesome DOs in various medical specialties. But you don't go to a physician because of the two letters behind his/her name, you go because of their qualifications to treat medical conditions which is more of a function of their postgraduate training and that individual's commitment to delivering good clinical medicine.

And the new organ is really not "new." It was two separate components (interstitial tissue and interstitial fluid) together (interstitium) that are now being functionally viewed as organs. With new research, the components appears to function more so in a system. Remember, cells comprise tissues, tissues comprise organs.   https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/27/health/new-organ-interstitium-study/index.html

Exactly. But note the operative phrase in my post "everything else being equal."

 

I'm talking about specialists so they're all board certified and clearly qualified. The do had to work harder to get that position at that hospital, and yeah if there's a disabled black gay Muslim Downs syndrome orthopedic surgeon and I need an orthopedic surgeon, you're damn right I'm going to think he's way better than anyone else at his job.

 

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[futureman 22444]

34 minutes ago, triplelonghorn said:

and yeah if there's a disabled black gay Muslim Downs syndrome orthopedic surgeon and I need an orthopedic surgeon, you're damn right I'm going to think he's way better than anyone else at his job.

getting a total joint replacement revised is a lot of fun.  good luck with that.